BR Standard brake vans

[BROMLEY BASIN]

I am assembling a 4mm Connoisseur Pocket Money etched brass kit of a BR standard brake van which has sat in my 'to do' box for many years. Sadly kits from Connoisseur are now only available in 7mm. The kit was never intended for compensation or springing, and in fact has no floor as the roof is designed to be soldered on from the inside. The axleguard, axlebox and spring for each wheel are supplied as a single white metal casting, none of which I intend to use. These problems are by no means insurmountable, but I would really appreciate some advice before proceeding further.
I have found the recent series of posts entitled 'Festive brake' by Serjt-Dave very informative, but the following questions remain.
N.B. the van is to run in pre-1960 condition.

1). I am considering using Bill Bedford sprung units. His RCH heavy wagon W-irons appear to be the most period appropriate and logically the right size for a brake van, although I note that the Dave Bradwell underframe etch used on the 'Festive brake' contains 3 axleguard options, presumably the plate ones being for later lots fitted with roller bearings, etc. Can anyone provide some prototype guidance on this?
2). How many leaves are in the springs, and what axleboxes are appropriate? Published photos are generally unhelpful as most things below the solebars are obstructed by the footboards.

Additionally I have a Hornby BR standard brake van which may or may not get converted to P4 depending upon the answer to this question. This model has a representation of rectangular metal panels 3ft 1.5 ins x 1ft 3ins rivetted between the top of each ducket and the roof line (presumably a repair?). When were these items first fitted to vans instead of the wooden body planking, or more specifically, did these panels appear on any vans before 1960?

Any advice, suggestions or information would be gratefully received. Thank you.

[davebradwell]

I'll point you at Eric Gent's British Railways Brakevans & Ballast Ploughs and/or Model Railway Constructor for May 1983. The photos in the book are mainly of vans in later condition.

Your plate is probably a late repair as you suggest. You haven't even started on spacing of footstep supports, plank widths, buffers or coupling hooks and should it have a brake cylinder? I gave up before it came down to the number of spring leaves.

DaveB

[BROMLEY BASIN]

Dear Dave,

OK, thank you. I'll start the search for the book. I find research one of the most rewarding and absorbing aspects of the hobby.

Chris A

[Noel]

I would agree with the suggestion of the Eric Gent book, although it does need care because the photos are mostly in late condition. Some show a [probably] metal panel above the ducket [as do some Sharks] but it appears to be nailed on; rivets are pretty unlikely on a wooden van. It does look like a late repair. Some vans were built with a plywood panel rather than short planks above the bolts attaching the metal ducket.

To Dave's comments about differences you can add the doors, length of footboards, type of vacuum pipe and types of vertical handrail, although most of these only apply to the first lot, which were basically to the LNER design.

BR standard brake vans normally had plate axleguards whatever the axlebox type.

[David Knight]

Chris,

You might want to have a look at Tim Shackleton’s article on page 71 of MRJ 133 in which he describes a build of the same kit as you are looking at. There may, or may not, be something useful there for you.

Cheers,

David

[Jeremy Suter]

Hope these may help the underframes are not too obscured.
E246701 Ex LNER 20t brake built 1941 lot 1246 at Millerhill 26.7.64

img20220215_08214515.jpg

E242170 Ex LNER 20t brake built Darlington 1940 at Millerhill 6.10.62

img20220215_08220696.jpg

B953024BR Standard brake van at Thornton Junction 3.1.62

img20220215_08222676.jpg

B932115 Standard brake van Built Darlington 1953 lot 2478 at Millerhill 27.4.68

img20220215_08245896.jpg

B950997 Standard brake van at Northwich Oakleigh Sidings 26.3.60

img20220215_08323636.jpg

B950588 Standard brake van at Northwich Oakleigh sidings 26.3.60

img20220215_08325486.jpg

[davebradwell]

I found 3 types of axleguard on BR standard brake vans and this doesn't include the first batch built to the LNER design. If you exclude these vans then doors seem to have been the same and all steps were the long type. The layer of concrete ballast above the solebars lifted the floor and made the BR vans higher than the LNER ones. The trouble you'll have with your research, Bromley, is that you have a fixed set of bits in your kit and you have to find a photo that matches it.

Looks like Jeremy may have found you a photo of van in '62 with your plate.

DaveB

[Daddyman]

1). I am considering using Bill Bedford sprung units. His RCH heavy wagon W-irons appear to be the most period appropriate and logically the right size for a brake van, although I note that the Dave Bradwell underframe etch used on the 'Festive brake' contains 3 axleguard options, presumably the plate ones being for later lots fitted with roller bearings, etc. Can anyone provide some prototype guidance on this?

I haven't built this particular Connoisseur kit, but I've built a lot of his 4-wheel carriages to P4, in addition to the LMS brakevan. A problem common to all of them is that the BB spring units won't actually fit in between the solebars as the latter are designed. On the 4-wheels carriages, with wooden underframes, there is a flange on the lower edge of the solebar that is to be bent at right angles to the solebar, in towards the interior of the vehicle; this gives the awful cast axleboxes a good seating, but prevents the fitting of the BB units. Ideally, it needs to be snapped off before building commences - or ground off once building has commenced! This is unlikely to be the case with the BR van with its steel underframe - unless it has etched overlays. But the LMS van - also, of course, with a steel underframe - has a different problem: not the flange getting in the way of the BB unit, but the solebars themselves being too close together! So you'll need to plan ahead, check all dimensions carefully, and expect to perhaps have to move out the solebars, and/or snap off flanges.

You'll also need to think about where to put the scratchbuilt floor. I ummed and ahhed a long time on the 4-wheel carriages over whether to put it above the solebars or between them. Both posed problems, but in the end I opted for above, between the sides and ends of the body. I can't quite see from the instructions for the 0-gauge the BV (more below), but it looks like you might need to remove some tabs inside the body in order to allow a floor to sit on top of the half-floor strips that fold over from the back of the solebars.

You might also want to check the spacing of the planking on the BR van: the LMS one has the planks etched if not exactly at the wrong spacing, certainly at a spacing which was very unusual on the prototype.

Incidentally, take a look at the 0-gauge instructions as they often contain more detail and better photos than the ones for 4mm:
http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Print%20off%2 ... %20pdf.pdf

[BryanJohnson]

Hi Chris,
I'm building a batch of these, some from Airfix and some from PMK.
With the PMK ones, I replaced the kit white metal running gear with Bill Bedford W-irons.
The axleboxes and springs vary a lot, so the old adage of find a photo works best. Rumney Models can provide whatever combination you find you need - https://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/wagon-castings. The B.108 Wagon Detailing is also useful.

I did this to show some of the variations between the different builds for my models.

Brake Van variations.jpg

These are the part-built PMK vans, lot 2137 then 2605.

DSC_5548.JPG

DSC_5553.JPG

Bryan

[davebradwell]

This brings us, inevitably, to the question of whether your chosen fitted vans had a brake cylinder or not?

DaveB

[grovenor-2685]

Most did not, If in doubt leave it out.
This was my attempt at the kit. http://www.norgrove.me.uk/pmkbke.htm

[Porcy Mane]

This brings us, inevitably, to the question of whether your chosen fitted vans had a brake cylinder or not?

DaveB

Hello Dave and all.

I think it can be safely said that the info given in the appendix to the late Mr Rowlands book (BR wagons: The first half million) is spot on. Verified by the study of over 1000 BR brake pics. For me the more vexed question to be asked is which of the Vac cylinder fitted vans later had them removed and at what date.

I always found it surprising that, for the diagram and lot number, Airfix got the V hangers correct but didn't supply the vac cylinder and they also represented the concrete weights correctly by taking them to the very end of the draw beam. Then they let themselves down by screwing up the roof detail.

1). I am considering using Bill Bedford sprung units. His RCH heavy wagon W-irons appear to be the most period appropriate and logically the right size for a brake van, although I note that the Dave Bradwell underframe etch used on the 'Festive brake' contains 3 axleguard options, presumably the plate ones being for later lots fitted with roller bearings, etc. Can anyone provide some prototype guidance on this?

Is this any help? Furthest van is B952701 to Diag. 1/506 lot 2606. Everything looks to be as it left Faverdale works in 1954 apart from the original axlebox being changed to the Kooler type. Nearest BB etch looks to be: BBWF080-4

B952741-C-Fleet-1982EditSM.jpg

The 1956 Diag. 1/504 Lot2868 (Vac fitted) was the first BV's to have Timken roller bearings from new These BV's were still fitted with 18" spindle buffers along with GWR welded instanter couplings. Those of this lot that had screw couplings had 20 inch spindle buffers. As ever there always is bound to be exceptions to the rule.

Diag 1/506 Lot3012 was unusual that a large proportion of the BV's were initially fitted with square 20" Dowty buffers. This lot also reverted the end platform handrails cranked to the meet the outside of the veranda in common with some of the late LNER & early build BR brakes.

The earliest brake I have recorded as having plate back W irons is B955069 but I have no clear pictures of W irons between B954968 (which had BR open W irons as for B952741 pictured above) up to B955069.

Additionally I have a Hornby BR standard brake van which may or may not get converted to P4 depending upon the answer to this question. This model has a representation of rectangular metal panels 3ft 1.5 ins x 1ft 3ins rivetted between the top of each ducket and the roof line (presumably a repair?). When were these items first fitted to vans instead of the wooden body planking, or more specifically, did these panels appear on any vans before 1960?

I think you must be meaning one of the earlier Hornby brake vans which has some dimensional inaccuracy's. The latest Hornby brakes have planking above the duckets. B950947 had the plating above the ducket on the stove side in 1960. One thing I've noticed about the repair panels having looked at so many photographs is that the repair panels are not necessarily fitted to both sides. This is how the area above the ducket looks on the latest versions of Hornby BR brakes.

Hby-BV-Detailing-081-EditSm.jpg

Fitting Sprung W irons or rocking w Irons to these later Hornby brakes (and the Bachmann version) is a bit of faff, as to maintain a correct ride height material has to be removed from the underside of the floor and the solebars have to be thinned from behind to allow for the correct width etched w irons. This pic may illustrate things better.

BrakeVanChas-01-EditSm.jpg

I can make a much quicker and tidier job if this now that I use a milling attachment for the unimat but it's still probably quicker and tidier by using one of Mr. Bradwell's chassis.

Apologies for the ramble but I'm a bit of a BR Brake obsessive.

P

[davebradwell]

Well, Porcy, you've come up with a couple of things that differ from my own conclusions.

There was some correspondence on this issue of brake cylinders in MRJ 134, just after the Shackleton article. A correspondent asserted that the perceived wisdom (in 2002) was that no brake cylinders were fitted despite the "p"s and "v"s in the lot list in Don Rowland's book. I discussed this with Don at an exhibition and he felt that the lot list represented intention but only some cylinders were fitted. I take it you have actually found direct evidence of brake cylinders - the arm and piston rod end can be seen hanging below but there were vans with V hangers and no cylinder. I'm told there was a TOPS code for a van with brake cylinder to distinguish those from ordinary fitted vans so certainly some vans had them. All the preserved vans I examined had cylinders as I believe these railways are discouraged from running unbraked trains.

Don Rowland pointed out to me that omitting the cylinder was originally LMS practice. Apparently if the guard applied the vac brake on van with cylinder, moments later he could be lying flat on his back, so there were obvious benefits in not having one and this became the standard. My understanding at the time was that the "v" just meant there was a hole in the concrete so one could be fitted but most were not.

You say the concrete slabs on top of the underframe at the ends ended flush with the beam. I always found they stopped about 2" short because there were pieces of angle around 3 sides with which they were secured to the underframe.

I've re-read my instructions regarding axleguards and I only found evidence of 2 types - I included a 3rd standard type in case evidence turned up for their use. I never found any logic to the steps and supports.

You can also throw cast or fabricated spring hangers into the mix. There can even be a mix due to breakages, as on the van at Tanfield.

DaveB

[bécasse]

I'm told there was a TOPS code for a van with brake cylinder to distinguish those from ordinary fitted vans so certainly some vans had them.

All the existence of a TOPS code proves is that the TOPS coding team at Blandford House were led to understand that there existed vehicles that conformed to that code's specification and not that they actually existed.

The late Alan Blackburn was on the coding team and he told me at the time that they learnt a lot about BR's contemporary wagon fleet that nobody had known before - including the surprisingly large number of vehicles with different painted numbers (and presumably plates) on either side.

[davebradwell]

Moving on to Porcy Main's upgrading of rtr vans - did you consider just slotting the plastic axleguards and springing these directly with p-p bearings and wire? I'm doing this with a Hornby LMS van at the moment - it's a lot of work to change the axleguards and fit spring castings when they're barely visible?

DaveB

[Porcy Mane]

Well, Porcy, you've come up with a couple of things that differ from my own conclusions.

I take it you have actually found direct evidence of brake cylinders - the arm and piston rod end can be seen hanging below but there were vans with V hangers and no cylinder.
DaveB

Photographs. A quick scan shows:

B951613 26/05/1967 Pic by Trevor Ermel.
B951645 Feb. 1957 Neg in my Collection
B951646 Waskerley Neg in ARPT
B952115 27-04/1968 DR
B952516 21/04/1966 (The Airfx number@York)
B952640 25/05/1967 Neg in My Collection
B952668 18/03/1963 Neg in My Collection
B952672 15/05/1965 Neg in My Collection
B952675 20/04/1995 Duddleston
B952741 1982 Cargo Fleet.
B952963 Undated Keysham Frys
B952992. Aug 1965 Pic by David Ford
B953646 25/05/1961 By HKB Ex works.1st shopping. 20" Dowty's
B953650 25/06/1963 JT 53A 24" Dowty's & RIV.
B953787 Undated but post 1963
B953970 30/09/1967 Harlaxton Railtour.
B954199 10/08/1975 Paul Bartlett
B954268 As preserved.
B954278 23/06/1964 Neg in My collection
B954368 Undated but pre 1967
B954500 Undated On Cliff>Udd. Cemflos
B954501 Undated 1960's Darlington

You say the concrete slabs on top of the underframe at the ends ended flush with the beam. I always found they stopped about 2" short because there were pieces of angle around 3 sides with which they were secured to the underframe.
DaveB

Yep, A strange one this and generally peculiar to the 1955 & 1956 builds. Lot 2605 (unfitted): Some had the platform weights to the very end, some didn't. Lot2606 (vac fitted) had the majority with the concrete to right to the end. B952792 from this lot had a "standard" type end as you describe. This first BV from this lot, B952516 was the number of the transfer supplied with the original Airfix kit. I have a phot of B952516 at York in 1966 and the Vac cylinder is visible but the visible body side has been re timbered with wide planks.
I've come across 3 methods of extending the platforms right to the end.
Firstly the steel "fence" that retains the poured concrete is in one piece and wraps around the end platform.
Secondly an extension piece was welded into the surround. The pic below shows this on B952672, another vac cyl van in 1965. Also B952741 included in my previous post is like this.

BrakevanMansfieldB952672-3© PwD-CollEditSm.jpg

Thirdly and somewhat bizarrely, was a standard concrete end but with a timber infill to bring the end flush with the bufferbeam. B952282, originally unfitted then piped, is still like this in preservation.

Lot 2741 also has a mix of vans with standard ends and concrete platforms that extend right to the end. An ex. C&W draughtsman told me that the reason there was this variation was that some brakevans had insufficient scrap iron within the concrete ballast mix to bring them up to tare. I've never found any documentary evidence to support this but I'd class the draughtsman as an impeccable primary source.

I've re-read my instructions regarding axleguards and I only found evidence of 2 types - I included a 3rd standard type in case evidence turned up for their use.
DaveB

B955097 and B955010 Pics by Paul Bartlett show these late brakes to be fitted with plate back W Irons but unlike the BR built Stanier brakes they have towing holes.

I never found any logic to the steps and supports
DaveB

I've made some progress on that. It certainly fooled Hornby and Bachmann. Depending on the running number they both got one side correct but on opposite sides.

P

[johndarch]

A huge amount of useful information. Many thanks for sharing your knowledge. Now I must go and see what I have done wrong on my brake vans!

[davebradwell]

Indeed you've done a fine job Porcy. The ballast flush at ends and sides I've never seen mentioned (so that's something else to get wrong) and you've confirmed the belief that some vans had cylinders despite the tide of sometimes eminent doubters. At least Eric Gent is careful of his wording here, hedging his bets.

DaveB

[Mark Tatlow]

Interesting how many of the pictures in this thread show quite significantly different buffer heights.

Jeremy Suter, is it worth scaling up the buffer height gauge by 76.2 times and flogging a few - you can ditch the EM and OO versions, they really ain't going to be interested!

For someone who has dusted off his Bradwell chassis as a result of the "Festive Brake" thread, this is useful stuff even if it does put you a little into a head spin.

[Andrew Ullyott]

I’ve built two using Bill Bedford sprung W irons without any bother. One had a thin false floor added, the other just had the W irons soldered in. Nice kits.

[smardale]

...and you've confirmed the belief that some vans had cylinders...
DaveB

Vac braked vans (with working vac brakes) were still kicking around well into the 1980s...if you looked hard enough to find them as here in 1986...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/814 ... ist-dptsvH

Cheers
Duncan

[Porcy Mane]

Now I must go and see what I have done wrong on my brake vans!

Knowing your attention to detail John, I'm pretty sure they'll be spot on.

Indeed you've done a fine job Porcy.
DaveB

Thanks John & Dave but I think I'm only scratching the surface. Duncan deserves some credit as he's almost as cracked on brake vans than I.

Moving on to Porcy Main's upgrading of rtr vans - did you consider just slotting the plastic axleguards and springing these directly with p-p bearings and wire? I'm doing this with a Hornby LMS van at the moment - it's a lot of work to change the axleguards and fit spring castings when they're barely visible?DaveB

I have Dave. A quick and dirty conversion using your spring plates. Woe is me at the non availability of exactoscale waisted bearings but I still have a few packets left for priority jobs. Romfords have been used for this example. I still had to mill a small amount of the rear face of the W Irons to allow 26 mm axles to fit.
The more complex conversion is at bottom. That's just me faffing about as I want to correct the solebars and fancy a go at fitting the individual bits of angle as in the lower pic.

Stanier-Brk-Hby-005-EditSm.jpg

B950196_30-7-1963-EditSm.jpg

Not much progress from about 10 years ago using the old Dapol body/chassis. The battery holder was for the illuminated tail lamps & glowing stove.
That was the days before Mr Franks & Modelu made tail lamps

Afix-HbyLMRBrake_015-EditSm.jpg

ProjectWorkingTail-Lmp07copySM.jpg

Afix-HbyLMRBrake026_29Comb-EditSm.jpg

did you consider just slotting the plastic axleguards and springing these directly with p-p bearings and wire?
DaveB

For lowmacs I've had a go at springing directly off the bearing by soldering a bit of tube directly on to the PP through which guitar wire can slide. In the phot below the guitar wire still has to be split at the central point and an L bent into it to prevent it sliding out of the tube. Looks like it will work but I'm not sure about the longevity of the soldered joint between the PP and & the tube.

PMK10Abox--04-EditSm.jpg

A bit more on the flush end platforms:
I've just found a database I'd written up listing brake vans I have, or had seen photographs listing prototypes with the extended platforms. I can't even remembering doing it. I was incorrect saying they only came from the BV's built in 1954/55. I have three Diag.1/507 vans listed from the 1959 build programme.
B954837 is pictured in Chenoa's BR cattle & Brake vans, page 46. Photographed on 26 Oct.1979 and by then air braked.
B954537 & B954937. These two have the wooden batten infill.

Interesting how many of the pictures in this thread show quite significantly different buffer heights.

Don't get me started on buffers and buffer heights. . Sagging springs, drooped drawbars, sagging rail joints and all that. Here's two pics I took about a minute apart. Loco is stationary, but had moved about 5 yards. Track was straight and level.

BowesRlyJul1123editCombo.jpg

P

[Mark Tatlow]

Interesting how many of the pictures in this thread show quite significantly different buffer heights.

Don't get me started on buffers and buffer heights. . Sagging springs, drooped drawbars, sagging rail joints and all that. Here's two pics I took about a minute apart. Loco is stationary, but had moved about 5 yards. Track was straight and level.

BowesRlyJul1123editCombo.jpg

P

Somebody better tell that this would never work in P4 and they would be best staying OO?

[davebradwell]

Presumably the buffer situation in your photos is why heads were changed to 13" and locos were always larger.

Can't see why your little bit of tube would break off Porcy. Before I added the tab to my plates I had a few failures of the butt soldered joint between spring and top edge of plate but that is flexing so gradually peels off. The csbers don't retain their wire so perhaps you won't have any trouble with it coming out. Must admit I don't fancy cantilever springs but can't give a rational reason for this - I'll share your optimism.

I have been using Markits plain or waisted brgs in rtr conversions as they allow axleguard spacing down to around 23.3. Remarkably, both types have the same cone depth, unlike the Scalefour drgs. Noticed that my Hornby LMS van conversion still has slight sideplay despite 23.1 spacing so they've gone a bit beyond their own drg. with this batch This must be on the limit because I did have a flange break off so another few thou' and there'd be no flange. My intention had been to deepen the cones with a 0.35 drill or knock the points off the axles to gain a little space.

Saw a detachable illuminated lamp once which dropped onto a "2 rail" lampiron made of double sided pcb. It was 16mm scale though.

DaveB

[Porcy Mane]

Presumably the buffer situation in your photos is why heads were changed to 13" and locos were always larger.

Can't see why your little bit of tube would break off Porcy. Before I added the tab to my plates I had a few failures of the butt soldered joint between spring and top edge of plate but that is flexing so gradually peels off.

DaveB

Thats my worry Dave. The tube is just butt soldered to a flat filed across the top of the PP but with the spring running in tube the jount shouldn't be subjected to any flexing.

The csbers don't retain their wire so perhaps you won't have any trouble with it coming out.

DaveB

There's always the exception to the rule. When test running this chassis (my only CSB so far) the springs would slowly "shuggy" through the knobs and spring carriers. I had to put bends at one end to stop the wire eventually falling out of the rear knobs. It wouldn't have been needed when the body was on as the guitar wire would have eventually come up against the plastic body. My guessing is though, that would have effected the spring action.

J72-CSB-Chassis-038-© PwD-EditSm.jpg

This was the other end.

J72-CSB-Chassis-14-EditSm.jpg

Apologies to the original poster for the thread drift.

Saw a detachable illuminated lamp once which dropped onto a "2 rail" lampiron made of double sided pcb. It was 16mm scale though.
DaveB

Back to brake vans then. I'm sure others will have thought of this. Here's my prototype for 4mm detachable loco and brake van lights. Still got to try it on a running brake van to see if energised Jackson uncoupling magnets have any influence on the stiction.

Not sure how I'll get a couple of AAA's and an LED in there though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htVMsV38MnM

P