North Sunderland stock

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:14 pm

Porcy Mane wrote: Might pay to put some extra money into getting hold of a January 1975 copy of Model Railway Constructor. There is an article that still holds up well today, on building various diagrams of LMS vans from the Ratio Kit. I'll look forward to your planked end version. Diagram 2070 I think?

It was that article that got me into wagons all them years ago.


Noted!

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:45 am

Right, next question
I need to fit some sort of representation of the vacuum brake gear to the saloon seen on the last page. Every known picture of the saloon where the underframe is visible shows it from the side shown in the model photos - with the gas or Westinghouse cylinder blocking the view of the underframe equipment. Now, the coach clearly has vacuum equipment, and it was clearly operational up until the last days, as shown by the hoses being connected up in this grab:

20211230_105118 (2).jpg


However, the dial/gauge on the solebar, which I think normally indicates the location of a vacuum brake cylinder, is missing in the photo above, but present in this 1934 photo:

03-02-2022_08-05-25_resized.jpg


It's also present on the other side of the carriage in 1930s shots. The above shot also shows something protruding from under the solebar - presumably the valve to which the gauge was related?

Could it be that this gauge (and valve) was moved inside? Alan Wright notes that in 1943 "the vacuum brake equipment was reconditioned and a guard's valve fitted into the van portion."

This impacts on the model as, if I understand it, the solebar gauge/dial/valve does in fact indicate the position of the vacuum tank; I can then work out the position of other things from there. So the (almost certainly daft) questions are:

1. Does this gauge in fact indicate the centre line of the vacuum tank?
2. Would an 18-inch wagon-type vacuum tank be sufficient for such a vehicle?
3. Is it fair to assume the vacuum tank would be hard up against the solebar on the other side of vehicle to that shown in the photos?
4. As I understand it, the basic vacuum brake equipment would be the tank, with a piston connected by an arm to a thick rotating rod held in V-hangers; on said rod there'd then be a crank attached to thinner rods which link to the brake yokes, such that when the crank turns on the (thick) rod, the (thin) rods pull the brakes on or off. Is this right? Is it fair to assume that one V-hanger would be hard up against the solebar, and the other as far away from it as the positioning of the gas/Westinghouse tank would allow? If this is right, then knowing the tank centre line and guessing the length of the "arm" from other kits will help me position the V-hangers.

Thanks again!

Don't miss the exciting next instalment of daft questions: modelling light-railway track. Coming soon!
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Noel
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:30 am

Wikipedia states that the coaches were ex-GER, which was a Westinghouse line, although the LNER standardised on vacuum brakes, apart from the ex-GER suburban sets and their replacements. The top photo shows both vacuum and air pipes [but no steam heat pipe, apparently...] The tank is for gas for the lighting, and the gauge is undoubtedly for that, as it had to be filled from time to time. Neither vacuum or air brakes required gauges on the vehicle, except in the guard's van, as in both cases the system was controlled from the loco and both would be at normal air pressure when disconnected from it. The protrusion under the solebar is most probably the tank filler, given its proximity to the gauge.
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Noel

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:47 am

Thanks for that those clarifications, Noel.

Looks like the Wikipedia page needs some editing: the NSR had three (not two) GER 6-wheelers, plus an ex-GER bogie brake, but the coach shown here is ex-NER, one of three of that parentage on the line. The saloon came to the line in 1924, seemingly with both vacuum and W/h brakes already fitted (there would have been no need to fit it with VB for the NSR as the line had no VB locos). The W/h equipment would have been obsolete from 1947 when the Armstrong Whitworth diesel and the MW 0-6-0 Bamburgh were withdrawn. In fact, the NSR explicitly asked the LNER if they could provide a small vacuum-braked loco to work the line's passenger trains; a J71 was tried but was too heavy and spread the track. So the NSR paid to have the vacuum gear fitted to Y7 No. 68089 (the subject of my model on the first page).

There was no steam heat, no - the NSR didn't go in for such things; there was barely even lighting: in the later years, there was simply an oil lamp hung on the partition between the guard's and passengers' areas.



Given that the solebar gauge has now been discounted as an indicator of the vacuum cylinder's position, I'm back to square one. Should I assume the cylinder was located centrally?

John Palmer
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby John Palmer » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:18 am

Might be worth dropping a line to Jim McGeown of Connoisseur Models to enquire what information about the braking arrangements for NSR carriages his researches brought to light. For some reason his model includes the brake blocks, hangers and yokes but not, apparently, the rest of the linkage or the vacuum cylinder.

I knew virtually nothing about the NSR until prompted by this thread to do a little reading - and was then struck by the realisation of what a cataclysmic period in railway history was 27th to 29th October 1951: final expiration of the NSR and also year-round pasenger services between Highbridge and Burnham-on-Sea!

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:47 pm

John Palmer wrote:Might be worth dropping a line to Jim McGeown of Connoisseur Models to enquire what information about the braking arrangements for NSR carriages his researches brought to light. For some reason his model includes the brake blocks, hangers and yokes but not, apparently, the rest of the linkage or the vacuum cylinder.

Mmm, maybe, though I suspect what you get in the kits is what he knows...

John Palmer wrote: I knew virtually nothing about the NSR until prompted by this thread to do a little reading - and was then struck by the realisation of what a cataclysmic period in railway history was 27th to 29th October 1951: final expiration of the NSR and also year-round pasenger services between Highbridge and Burnham-on-Sea!


Repaying the compliment, I've never heard of Highbridge or Burnham-on-Sea either! I don't know about cataclysmic - when the NSR closed, or when there was no loco available, the hordes of passengers could be accommodated in a single taxi. But, yes, the railway has all the qualities that would make it a more popular subject for models if, I suspect, it was located in the south of the country. It's well covered by kits (though recourse to ebay is often necessary), including these two (loco High Level; brake van NB 4mm Developments), both of which still need converting to P4 (dare I try to put CSBs in the loco? Has anyone done it?):

20181216_144953.jpg
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Enigma
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Enigma » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:22 pm

I built one of Jim's NSR coaches a while back, it is the Brake end one. It's built as a 'freelance' one for my industrial line (should it ever get built!) so i wasn't to particular about all the fine details. I seem to remember that I bought the etches from Jim's oddments box on a stand, possibly when he started to concentrate of 7m kits? I found the instructions on line as a 7mm version which was perfectly OK to use for the 4mm one.

I like the NB brake van. This would also fit in with my industrial theme. Is the kit still available? I'm a bit of a sucker for 'odd' brakevans!

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:40 pm

Enigma wrote:I built one of Jim's NSR coaches a while back, it is the Brake end one. It's built as a 'freelance' one for my industrial line (should it ever get built!) so i wasn't to particular about all the fine details. I seem to remember that I bought the etches from Jim's oddments box on a stand, possibly when he started to concentrate of 7m kits? I found the instructions on line as a 7mm version which was perfectly OK to use for the 4mm one.

The birdcage?

20190331_144653.jpg


This one is due back across my workbench to correct the height of the stepboards (too low), to spring the buffers, and to improve the cosmetic springs.
It was withdrawn in 1934, so will run in my autumn 1933 NSR train: J79, saloon (I have a second kit to build to represent the coach in its earlier condition), an ex-NER 4-wheel composite (also Connoisseur), and birdcage. I have a second birdcage too, which I'm umming and ahing over whether to build grounded, as the real thing was in 1934.
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:44 pm

Enigma wrote: I like the NB brake van. This would also fit in with my industrial theme. Is the kit still available? I'm a bit of a sucker for 'odd' brakevans!


Who isn't?

They're available in small batches every now and then. He does three [EDIT: four] versions - this is the less interesting one but I have one each of the two ducketed ones, one of which type the Wemyss Private Railway had, so they certainly made it into industrial use. Best thing is to ask Ian to be put on a waiting list, or keep checking back. EDIT: have just checked and they're available - QUICK!
https://www.nbr4mm.co.uk/brakevans/brake_vans.php

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Noel
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:20 pm

John Palmer wrote:I knew virtually nothing about the NSR until prompted by this thread to do a little reading

Me too! :D

Daddyman wrote:but the coach shown here is ex-NER, one of three of that parentage on the line.

The NER was another Westinghouse line.

Daddyman wrote:Given that the solebar gauge has now been discounted as an indicator of the vacuum cylinder's position, I'm back to square one. Should I assume the cylinder was located centrally?

That would probably not be a sensible thing to do. John has offered one possible route to finding out underframe details; mine is https://ner.org.uk/.
Regards
Noel

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:02 pm

Noel wrote: That would probably not be a sensible thing to do. John has offered one possible route to finding out underframe details; mine is https://ner.org.uk/.


I've contacted Jim (pleased to see he's now on email).

As for the NERA, I suspect I am their carriage person, certainly where post-NER-period carriages are concerned. But I'm on reasonable terms with their president, one John Addyman, so I'll see if he knows anything.
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Jeremy Good
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Jeremy Good » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:56 pm

There are instructions on the Connoisseur Models website for many of the O Gauge coach kits he sells. I'm not sure if they include these particular vehicles but some do show the vacuum braking arrangements as part of the instructions.

Jeremy

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:15 pm

Jeremy Good wrote:There are instructions on the Connoisseur Models website for many of the O Gauge coach kits he sells. I'm not sure if they include these particular vehicles but some do show the vacuum braking arrangements as part of the instructions.

Jeremy

Thanks, but there's nothing there, and I've heard back from Jim - he knows nothing about the VB. To be honest, I think when these kits were being made in the 1990s, their manufacturers would have been asking the NERA for info, and I can't think of anyone at the time that was interested in matters NER beyond 1923. That's the reason all the D&S kits for the NER carriages only tell people how to build them in NER condition, why people keep building them with the wrong roof fittings for LNER days, why I've had to spend two evenings plugging 20 grab-handle holes in a D.18 clerestory and re-drilling them in the LNER position (photo below), why Connoisseur shows the old roof fittings on his 4-wheel stock, etc, etc. I just have to face up to the fact I may be the authority on these things... :shock:

20220203_191848_resized.jpg


Back to the saloon, in my possibly imperfect understanding of such things me it makes sense to have the V-hangers in the longitudinal centre of the carriage, so that the pull rods to the yokes on the two wheelsets are the same length so that the brakes on each wheelset travel the same distance when actuated; that means the cylinder being offset from the (longitudinal) centre. Nothing else makes sense ... does it?
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Enigma
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Enigma » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:35 pm

Yes, it is the Birdcage version and thanks for the heads up on the BV supplier. I'll have a look later.

EDIT Tempted, tempted, very, very tempted...................... ;)
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:06 pm

Daddyman wrote: it makes sense to have the V-hangers in the longitudinal centre of the carriage, so that the pull rods to the yokes on the two wheelsets are the same length so that the brakes on each wheelset travel the same distance when actuated; that means the cylinder being offset from the (longitudinal) centre. Nothing else makes sense ... does it?

Having pull rods the same length is irrelevant to the functionality, the cylinder and cross shaft can be anywhere convenient. The only advantage of same length rods is in spare part provision and not very important with such simple blacksmith stuff.
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Keith
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John Palmer
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby John Palmer » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:12 am

Thinking it might be instructive to do so, I took a look at Surrey Warner's chapter on rolling stock design and construction in 'Railway Mechanical Engineering'. Unsurprisingly this reflects LSW practice, but it was apparent that the convention for 4- and 6-wheeled underframes was to mount the brake cross shaft levers to which the pull rods to the yokes were attached on the vehicle's longitudinal centre line. This would involve one vee hanger being attached to the solebar and its companion being mounted beyond the vehicle centre line in order that the actuating levers on the shaft between the hangers could be positioned on that longitudinal centre. Provided this condition could be satisfied I could find no reason for the 'inboard' vee hanger being mounted at any particular distance from the outboard one, and it seems to have been commonplace to mount it on whatever longitudinal frame member happened to be convenient. Naturally if handbrake levers were required to act upon both ends of the cross shaft the most convenient arrangement would be to mount both vee hangers on the solebars to facilitate the cross shaft spanning the vehicle's full width.

Without trying to wrap my brain around the mathematics of Warner's brake force calculations, I concluded that one of his design objectives was equalise and optimise the braking force being applied by each block carried by any given vehicle, and that symmetrical yokes actuated by pull rods on the vehicle's centre line helped to accomplish this. Warner hints that his description of design practice was representative of what was commonly to be found on Britain's railways at the time of writing (1923), from which I infer a likelihood that the NER vehicles that found their way onto the NSR employed braking arrangements of similar design.

Disappointingly Warner had nothing to say about how a dual braked system was combined so as to operate a common set of linkages, but his drawings of the aforementioned underframes suggest that the lever from the vacuum brake cylinder acted upon the cross shaft via some form of clutch arrangement, whilst the lever from the Westinghouse cylinder was keyed to the shaft (in which case the Westinghouse system may have needed to operate in sympathy with movements on the cross shaft induced by the vacuum brake system).

All of which suggests to me that design practice had by 1923 settled upon centre line linkages as the most straightforward means of implementing a self-equalising braking system. That made good sense to me and was, I think, the essence of what Daddyman was saying.

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:31 am

Brilliant, John, thank you! I had been coming to the same conclusion myself, in answer to Keith's post: what reason would there be for not mounting the vees on the longitudinal centre line? And then I answered my own question: well, if the W/h equipment, which got there first, was hogging all the underframe, then the VB gear would have to fit in where it could...

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:42 am

Jeremy Good wrote:There are instructions on the Connoisseur Models website for many of the O Gauge coach kits he sells. I'm not sure if they include these particular vehicles but some do show the vacuum braking arrangements as part of the instructions.

Jeremy

Jeremy - sorry I read this too quickly and dismissed it, but some of the instructions for Jim's non-NER/NSR carriages are very, erm, instructive, so thank you!

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:29 am

Daddyman wrote:Brilliant, John, thank you! I had been coming to the same conclusion myself, in answer to Keith's post: what reason would there be for not mounting the vees on the longitudinal centre line? And then I answered my own question: well, if the W/h equipment, which got there first, was hogging all the underframe, then the VB gear would have to fit in where it could...

The various posts above seem to be using 'longitudinal centre line' with two different meanings. :)
1. The line extending from one coupling hook to the other. (IMHO = longitudinal)
2. The line across the vehicle midway between outer axles. (IMHO = transverse)
To achieve equalisation between the 4 brake shoes on an axle the pull rods would, with very rare exceptions be on line 1. Hence the cross shaft has to span this line at right angles.
The vee hangers and cross shaft were often on line 2, but by no means always and it made no difference to the brake forces if the cross shaft was not central, ie not on line 2.
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Noel
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:59 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:The vee hangers and cross shaft were often on line 2, but by no means always and it made no difference to the brake forces if it was not central.


To expand on this a bit - the cross shaft would initially be set up to rotate in the direction required to apply the air brake, and the VB conversion would have to respect this. The vacuum cylinder would have to be offset from the cross shaft, wherever it was (and assuming that the original cross shaft could be used directly), by the length of the actuating lever, on the side which produced the required rotation, but could be in any convenient position across the chassis.
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Noel

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:17 pm

Thanks, Noel. I think it will be easier to find out the configuration of the W/house brake gear on the carriage, given that more information exists on the NER fittings than on LNER. I may then be able to work out the VB gear around that. I have a couple of D&S NER kits, albeit for 6-wheelers, and I may be able to get some clues from the instructions for them. Otherwise, I'll just have to assume V-hangers on the centre line - or centre lines (all of them)... lines...

Jeremy Suter
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Jeremy Suter » Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:42 am

Hi David
As promised last night I have scanned the NSR pictures for you.
I also looked out the pre BR period and found the bogie coach on the line I said I had seen.

NER Bogie coach being taken down the branch at Chathill 1936
img20220224_07571650.jpg

68089 Chathill C1950
img20220224_07491002.jpg

68089 Seahouses station 9.51
img20220224_07493117.jpg

68089 Seahouses station C1951
img20220224_07500102.jpg

68089 Chathill C1951
img20220224_07502576.jpg

68089 Chathill station goods shed C1951
C1951
img20220224_07505031.jpg

68089 seahoses shed C1951
img20220224_07512968.jpg

'Bamburgh' at Seahouses station C1922
img20220224_08075988.jpg

'Bamburgh' at Seahouses station C1922
img20220224_08102388.jpg

NER Coach 1911 Seahouses 9.6.34
img20220224_08115959.jpg

NER Coach 1912 Chathill 1936
img20220224_08185272.jpg

NER Coach 1912 Seahouses 9.6.34
img20220224_08143947.jpg

The Lady Armstrong Seahouses station 9.6.34
img20220224_08204878.jpg

The Lady Armstrong Seahouses station 9.6.34
img20220224_08231420.jpg

The Lady Armstrong Chathill 1936
img20220224_08223640.jpg

'Bamburgh' Seahouses 9.6.34
img20220224_08281774.jpg
img20220224_08285916.jpg

407 Seahouses (LNER J77) C1921
img20220224_08355049.jpg

407 Chathill station C1921
img20220224_08362509.jpg
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:04 am

Jeremy Suter wrote:Hi David
As promised last night I have scanned the NSR pictures for you.
I also looked out the pre BR period and found the bogie coach on the line I said I had seen.

NER Bogie coach being taken down the branch at Chathill 1936
img20220224_07571650.jpg
68089 Chathill C1950
img20220224_07491002.jpg
68089 Seahouses station 9.51
img20220224_07493117.jpg
68089 Seahouses station C1951
img20220224_07500102.jpg
68089 Chathill C1951
img20220224_07502576.jpg
68089 Chathill station goods shed C1951
C1951img20220224_07505031.jpg
68089 seahoses shed C1951
img20220224_07512968.jpg
'Bamburgh' at Seahouses station C1922
img20220224_08075988.jpg
'Bamburgh' at Seahouses station C1922
img20220224_08102388.jpg
NER Coach 1911 Seahouses 9.6.34
img20220224_08115959.jpg
NER Coach 1912 Chathill 1936
img20220224_08185272.jpg
NER Coach 1912 Seahouses 9.6.34
img20220224_08143947.jpg
The Lady Armstrong Seahouses station 9.6.34
img20220224_08204878.jpg
The Lady Armstrong Seahouses station 9.6.34
img20220224_08231420.jpg
The Lady Armstrong Chathill 1936
img20220224_08223640.jpg
'Bamburgh' Seahouses 9.6.34
img20220224_08281774.jpgimg20220224_08285916.jpg
407 Seahouses (LNER J77) C1921
img20220224_08355049.jpg
407 Chathill station C1921
img20220224_08362509.jpg


Wow! That's incredibly kind of you Jeremy, thank you. I've only seen about half of them. The penultimate one of the J79 at Seahouses with all the period wagons is pure gold. Looks like I need to go back to the Y7 and fit a makeshift cab "door" on the RHS, as I suspected - views of this side of the loco are very rare. It looks very shiny too, as if it's been painted in Clostermann's "Cellulose Taxi Jet Black Super Gloss"... One day I'll have to ask the forum for tips on modelling such dreadful track - the only sort of track I can ever see me getting interested in.

The one with the bogie coach is in Alan Wright's book on the line, and is, I suspect taken on the same day as your 15th picture, of LA at Chathill - note the oval buffers on the carriage, a sure sign it's a bogie vehicle (plus the panelling doesn't match any of the NSR's carriages).

Note also the birdcage carriage seen in the other shots, now grounded in the background of picture 16 - which, come to think of it, means it's North Sunderland (confusingly, the last-but-one station) and not Seahouses. Anyone any idea what that thing on the front of Bamburgh's tank is? I have to tackle it soon. Here it is blown up:
Bamburgh tank front.PNG


I see Diagram 134 vans making many appearances (looking resolutely brown, not white) - and that pesky LMS van in one of the Chathill shots.

Many thanks again, Jeremy! Great to see you and the others last night too.
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Noel
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:38 am

Jeremy Suter wrote:NER Bogie coach being taken down the branch at Chathill 1936


If the signalling is to be taken at face value, the train is approaching the station. It looks like an auto-coach, but is not being operated as such, so, as the guard is in the open door, is this a shunting move, possibly returning to the platform after working in the yard?
Regards
Noel

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:50 am

Noel wrote:
Jeremy Suter wrote:NER Bogie coach being taken down the branch at Chathill 1936


If the signalling is to be taken at face value, the train is approaching the station. It looks like an auto-coach, but is not being operated as such, so, as the guard is in the open door, is this a shunting move, possibly returning to the platform after working in the yard?

Wright's caption confirms your reading, Noel: "[T]he diesel propels an ex-NER autocoach trailer into the bay at Chathill (this was on loan to the NSR). The coach would not be used as a control trailer, because the locomotive did not have the necessary auto-gear fitted."

I'd say it's setting back to the position seen in photo 15 - both photos are credited to H.N. James, though Wright doesn't make the connection between them. EDIT: this is definitely the case: Wright also credits photo 11 to H. N. James, 1936, and the carriage visible on the extreme left of the shot is, I'd say, the same bogie one, which has now been set back on to the saloon. So photos 1, 15 and 11 show the same movement on the same day. Perhaps the bogie coach has just arrived?

EDIT 2: also interesting is that the bogie carriage has no W/H brake, but the diesel and Bamburgh, the only locos available at the time, only had W/H. So the passenger trains would be running unbraked. But then this seemed to happen quite often with unbraked wagons seen between the loco and the carriages in a number of photos, even in BR days.

EDIT 3: the bogie carriage is a D.162 driving trailer but the push-pull equipment was removed on all such carriages in the mid-1920s when the Sentinel steam railcars took over their duties; the pp gear was refitted from March 1938 after the Sentinels' useful life was over. EDIT 4: the carriage number ends in "02" and the only D.162 ending with those digits was 1902, so that identifies it.
Last edited by Daddyman on Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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