North Sunderland stock

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
Daddyman
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North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:16 pm

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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:22 pm

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DougN
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby DougN » Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:05 pm

Very Nice, Daddyman. Can you give us some details of kit/ scratchbuilt etc. The little Y7 must be extremely small.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:17 am

Thank you, Doug.

The Y7 was supposed to be a Connoisseur kit, but I ended up binning the chassis, tank/cab sides, boiler, smokebox, and most of the castings, so it's a virtual scratchbuild. I made resin castings from the latest Bachmann J72 for the s.box door and chimney, and made my own masters for the sandboxes. I already have the inside motion I made for a J79 so I'm trying to work out how to cast that for this one.

The Saloon kept more of the original Connoisseur kit but with the NSR modification to the door at this end to convert it into a brake carriage - you can see the makeshift vertical planking where the door was widened. I fitted Bedford spring units and my own resin castings for the springs/axleboxes/spring hangers, and buffers, and with numerous modifications to the underframe and stepboards so that the axleboxes would actually fit...

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:49 am

One or two parts from the Y7 kit that didn't get used in the end...
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:41 am

Could anyone help me identify these wagons, please? - and give tips as to how to model the underframe.

(Sorry - I clipped the end vents and twin rows of roof vents off this one...)
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I think they're both different versions of the LMS dia 1/200 vans, but one has the (seemingly very rare) vertical framing on the door, as seen here:
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsvan

This very helpful blog shows how to do the bodies - or at least the horizontal-framed doors:
https://windcutter.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... e-lms-van/

What non-plastic sources exist for brake gear or underframe? I'd like to use Bedford spring units (is the prototype fitted with 1923 RCH W-irons? EDIT: no, looks more like BWF080/4 BR sprung open) and brass brake gear, but am not very up on LMS wagons. Would the MT LMS brake etch be suitable, or does someone do all the underframe in one go?
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timlewis
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby timlewis » Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:03 pm

For steel underframes and all the gubbins, try Rumney Models. Beautifully etched and a pleasure to build.
Tim

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:28 pm

timlewis wrote:For steel underframes and all the gubbins, try Rumney Models. Beautifully etched and a pleasure to build.
Tim

Thanks, Tim. That's a good tip. I have one of his underframes for something else and, yes, very good. Just need to identify which one I need now...

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Noel
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:43 pm

Daddyman wrote:I think they're both different versions of the LMS dia 1/200 vans, but one has the (seemingly very rare) vertical framing on the door, as seen here:


The top photo appears to be LMS D2097 or D2108 of 1944 or a BR 1/200 of 1949, which was essentially the same diagram but numbered in the BR system, the lower LMS D2103 of 1946 plus what is probably an LNER van, although the LNER did build some like this for the LMS during WW2. There were 440 of D2097 [unfitted], 1,350 of D2108 plus 1,300 of 1/200 [VB] and 2,094 of D2103 [some VB]. VB and non-VB had quite different chassis.

It's all a bit academic since by the time these were built all vans were common user, so any, from anywhere, could have appeared.
Regards
Noel

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:03 pm

Thank you, Noel. A guest user of the forum has contacted me via a circuitous route through Western Thunder, confirming 1/200 and identifying the second one as from D.2103. But the extra information in your post is also useful.

Both wagons would almost certainly be VB as both are at the front of a passenger train (although I suspect that the presence of five vans at the front of the train in the second photo, and the "Farne Islander" headboard carried on the last day's services, might mean that it shows stock being removed from the NSR, in which case a fitted head might not be a consideration). Anyway, it seems a 2108 will be the easiest to build through a mixture of Ratio ends and modified Parkside PC42 sides; I've gone for a Rumney "B.51 BR 17’6″ x 10′ LMS Clasp Brake Chassis" on said guest's advice.
Last edited by Daddyman on Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:01 pm

If Zebedee's Knees are around, could I ask if this (in red) is one of two torque reaction links on the Coronation? Is it a design you would still use, and use with a CSB-ed 0-4-0, or would you do something differently now?
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grovenor-2685
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:06 pm

Not one of two, more like half of one. :)
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:22 pm

Go on, then, explain...

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zebedeesknees
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby zebedeesknees » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:29 pm

Daddyman wrote:If Zebedee's Knees are around, could I ask if this (in red) is one of two torque reaction links on the Coronation? Is it a design you would still use, and use with a CSB-ed 0-4-0, or would you do something differently now?
Capture.PNG

No, I would use the same 'U' or 'V' shape, amd have on several since. It doesn't matter whether the pointy end of the reaction link is at the gearbox or frame, provided it pivots freely at both ends, and is as near horizontal as possible. As Dave B. has correctly pointed out, the pivots should not be too well engineered, the gearbox must not be inhibited in the roll plane. Also, from experience(!) a U shape with a short straight part is preferable to a sharp V point, as the wire could in some circumstances slip sideways through the pivot hole.

Since both Portescap and High Level gearboxes have conveniently sited holes in the corners, that config. in the pic is easy to fit, and one wire (thanks Keith!) can be just sprung round the 'box allowing simple removal for maintenance.

Ted.
(A purists' purist)

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:46 pm

Thank you. A couple of questions...

zebedeesknees wrote: provided it pivots freely at both ends


I can't quite see from the photo the arrangement at the non-gearbox end.

zebedeesknees wrote: the pivots should not be too well engineered


By which I assume you mean the wire should not be an interference fit in the gearbox frame? That suggests that your design doesn't rely on the wires flexing, as I'd originally understood - rather, they're rigid and all the movement occurs in the joints?

Thanks again!

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zebedeesknees
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby zebedeesknees » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:09 pm

Daddyman wrote:Thank you. A couple of questions...

zebedeesknees wrote: provided it pivots freely at both ends


I can't quite see from the photo the arrangement at the non-gearbox end.


I had to look at the pictures on the Site again to remind myself! I folded a strip of brass about 2mm wide into a wishbone shape, and drilled the point through around 0.8mm. Then soldered the ends to the insides of the frames to clear the wiring to the motor.

zebedeesknees wrote: the pivots should not be too well engineered

By which I assume you mean the wire should not be an interference fit in the gearbox frame? That suggests that your design doesn't rely on the wires flexing, as I'd originally understood - rather, they're rigid and all the movement occurs in the joints?


That's it, exactly.

Thanks again!


You are most welcome!

Ted.
(A purists' purist)

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Will L
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Will L » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:17 pm

Daddyman wrote:...By which I assume you mean the wire should not be an interference fit in the gearbox frame? That suggests that your design doesn't rely on the wires flexing, as I'd originally understood - rather, they're rigid and all the movement occurs in the joints?

Absolutely, a long wire can bend in the middle which defeats the whole purpose. I have had to replace a long wire link with strip for this very reason.

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:40 pm

Thanks to both of you.

Final (I think) question: given that the range of movement on the hornblocks is around 0.5, that suggests that the TRL should allow the same amount (ish); and given that the wire forming the TRL shouldn't flex, that suggests that all that movement should come from the points where the TRL meets its restraints. But I don't think I should be creating a hole 0.5mm bigger than my wire in the gearbox frame, as that would allow too much chatter. Is that right? Spread the play between the fore and aft anchor/pivot points?

John Palmer
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby John Palmer » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:01 pm

Daddyman wrote:Could anyone help me identify these wagons, please?

To add to what's been said already, a few fairly speculative observations on my part.

If vents were visible before cropping on the roof of the leading van in the first picture then this is likely to be a Diag. 2108 vehicle rather than Diag. 2097, as this is noted as the difference between these diagrams in Essery and Morgan's 'The LMS Wagon'. Can't speak as to the BR version's ventilation.

In the second photograph the second vehicle certainly looks like a LNER van but escaping steam is unfortunately obscuring detail that might assist identification. However, there appears to be a fairly prominent splice plate just below eaves level to the left of the door. This could indicate that this is one of the batch built by Charles Roberts to Diag. 14 (Peter Tatlow's 'LNER Wagons' Vol 4A, p.116), or a Faverdale-built Diag. 161 (same volume pp.128 and 130). Or instead, the plate could simply have been added as part of an in-service repair. If part of a rake of five attached to a passenger train, then scarcely likely to be one of the 9' WB, non-fitted Charlers Roberts vans.

Third vehicle in second photograph has a chalkboard at l/h end of the side, suggesting that this may a LNE Diag.83 or 143 fish van (same volume, pp. 148 and 9).

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:13 pm

John Palmer wrote: If vents were visible before cropping on the roof of the leading van in the first picture then this is likely to be a Diag. 2108 vehicle rather than Diag. 2097, as this is noted as the difference between these diagrams in Essery and Morgan's 'The LMS Wagon'. Can't speak as to the BR version's ventilation.

In the second photograph the second vehicle certainly looks like a LNER van but escaping steam is unfortunately obscuring detail that might assist identification. However, there appears to be a fairly prominent splice plate just below eaves level to the left of the door. This could indicate that this is one of the batch built by Charles Roberts to Diag. 14 (Peter Tatlow's 'LNER Wagons' Vol 4A, p.116), or a Faverdale-built Diag. 161 (same volume pp.128 and 130). Or instead, the plate could simply have been added as part of an in-service repair. If part of a rake of five attached to a passenger train, then scarcely likely to be one of the 9' WB, non-fitted Charlers Roberts vans.

Third vehicle in second photograph has a chalkboard at l/h end of the side, suggesting that this may a LNE Diag.83 or 143 fish van (same volume, pp. 148 and 9).


Thank you for that. I was more interested in the foreign vans, being fairly OK with the LNER vans. I agree that vehicles 3 and 4 in the train are D.143s (or are they actually 134s? I think there's a typo: pp.143 and145 call them D.134s), but your identification on the D.14 is possible. But it does have the very high eaves more typical of LMS types (this crop shows vehicles 2-5):

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Porcy Mane
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Porcy Mane » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:33 pm

Daddyman wrote:Could anyone help me identify these wagons, please?
I think they're both different versions of the LMS dia 1/200 vans, but one has the (seemingly very rare) vertical framing on the door, as seen here:
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsvan


1st phot looks like the BR ply version of the Diag 200 but it could be LMS Diag 2108.

Second photo appears to be a LMS Diag. 2103. Fitted or unfitted though is another question?

See: https://flic.kr/p/2gsciVE

Daddyman wrote:This very helpful blog shows how to do the bodies - or at least the horizontal-framed doors:
https://windcutter.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... e-lms-van/


Unless you have spare Ratio ends to give the correct roof profile, it's probably more cost effective nowadays to graft the Parkside PC42 Dia 1/230 sides into a Dapol B019 body. They're only £1.80 a pop from Hattons and saves making up a roof.

Diag200-Van-Ply-001-EditSm.jpg


Daddyman wrote:What non-plastic sources exist for brake gear or underframe? I'd like to use Bedford spring units (is the prototype fitted with 1923 RCH W-irons? EDIT: no, looks more like BWF080/4 BR sprung open) and brass brake gear, but am not very up on LMS wagons. Would the MT LMS brake etch be suitable, or does someone do all the underframe in one go?


Prior to Justin's bits it was BWF080 and MT's brakes. Still unfinished as Justin came along.

BR-LMSboxVMdling-008-editSm.jpg


Lovely work BTW.

P
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:44 pm

Thank you, Paul.

And for this - almost missed it!

Porcy Mane wrote: Lovely work BTW.


The Ratio kit is on its way, alas. Will end up being a £30+ wagon... But a nice break from metalwork.

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Noel
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:01 pm

Daddyman wrote:I agree that vehicles 3 and 4 in the train are D.143s (or are they actually 134s? I think there's a typo: pp.143 and145 call them D.134s), but your identification on the D.14 is possible.

Definitely not D14, I think - the door catches are wrong, and the framed slates are, as far as I know, unique to Fish vans. There are no obvious cast plates, but the picture resolution is poor, so they may be there, or not. I would suggest, though, that they are the shorter D83, based on the proportions of the side.

The drawing in LNER Wagons 4A p148 refers to D134.

I don't know what is happening in the photo, but all the sliding doors are open, which was not unknown when shunting, but definitely not usual while in transit. The LNER were running the NSR from 1939, so I would expect their rules to apply. Shunting, therefore?
Last edited by Noel on Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
Noel

Porcy Mane
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Porcy Mane » Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:04 pm

Daddyman wrote:The Ratio kit is on its way, alas. Will end up being a £30+ wagon... But a nice break from metalwork.


Might pay to put some extra money into getting hold of a January 1975 copy of Model Railway Constructor. There is an article that still holds up well today, on building various diagrams of LMS vans from the Ratio Kit. I'll look forward to your planked end version. Diagram 2070 I think?

It was that article that got me into wagons all them years ago.

P

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:13 pm

Noel wrote:I don't know what is happening in the photo, but all the sliding doors are open, which was not unknown when shunting, but definitely not usual while in transit. The LNER were running the NSR from 1939, so I would expect their rules to apply. Shunting, therefore?


Yes, it's after arrival at Chathill on - I surmise - the last ever working. That said, the doors are open on to the 6 foot, so may have run in like that (otherwise, why not take them to Chathill goods yard to be unloaded, or use the doors on the other side, which is up against the passenger platform?); in light of this, the vans could be cripples being cleared out of Seahouses yard. In case you have it, the picture is in Railway Bylines August-September 1996 (Issue 5, Vol.1), which doesn't quite state it's the last ever working, but does say it's the last day, as evinced by the "Farne Islander" headboard; the same view is also in Alan Wright's book on the NSR, opposite p.71.


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