North Sunderland stock

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
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Winander
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Winander » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:34 pm

Daddyman wrote:So the passenger trains would be running unbraked. But then this seemed to happen quite often with unbraked wagons seen between the loco and the carriages in a number of photos, even in BR days.

Well you did say last night it was all very flat :)
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:49 pm

Winander wrote:
Daddyman wrote:So the passenger trains would be running unbraked. But then this seemed to happen quite often with unbraked wagons seen between the loco and the carriages in a number of photos, even in BR days.

Well you did say last night it was all very flat :)

:D
I did...

andrewphiliphanson
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby andrewphiliphanson » Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:07 pm

Daddyman wrote:
Note also the birdcage carriage seen in the other shots, now grounded in the background of picture 16 - which, come to think of it, means it's North Sunderland (confusingly, the last-but-one station) and not Seahouses. Anyone any idea what that thing on the front of Bamburgh's tank is? I have to tackle it soon. Here it is blown up:
Bamburgh tank front.PNG


It is a displacement lubricator, presumably feeding oil to the cylinders.

Andy

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:21 am

andrewphiliphanson wrote:
Daddyman wrote:
Note also the birdcage carriage seen in the other shots, now grounded in the background of picture 16 - which, come to think of it, means it's North Sunderland (confusingly, the last-but-one station) and not Seahouses. Anyone any idea what that thing on the front of Bamburgh's tank is? I have to tackle it soon. Here it is blown up:
Bamburgh tank front.PNG


It is a displacement lubricator, presumably feeding oil to the cylinders.

Andy

Thanks, Andy. That makes sense. And blowing up one of Jeremy's photos gives me quite a clear view of it.

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:27 pm

Hello. I'm in the last throes of building one of the ex-GER six wheelers that worked on the NSR, and I was just about to put some brake safety loops on when I realised they're not actually visible in any photos of the two real things. I'd assumed that they would be like those on the ex-NER saloon, which are very visible:
20211230_105118 (2).jpg


However, there's nothing similarly obvious on either of the ex-GER carriages, even in this shot taken on the same day, a little further up the platform:
08-03-2022_17-11-28.jpg

08-03-2022_17-11-14.jpg

This one also shows nothing:
GE 1.PNG


Views of the second such carriage also show nothing:
GE 2.PNG


What could be going on? There must surely be some sort of safety loops; does anyone have any ideas of what form they might take? Did the GER have a particularly invisible breed of loop?

Thanks for any help!
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:51 am

Just bumping this as for some reason it's disappeared from both "new posts" and "active topics". (New question above.)

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Paul Willis
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:52 am

Daddyman wrote:Just bumping this as for some reason it's disappeared from both "new posts" and "active topics". (New question above.)


Hi David,

Let me have a look and see if I can find any articles in the GERS Journal that may cover these coaches. It will probably be as they were built, and not subsequently modified, but it may be a starting point for you.

I'll come back to you...

Cheers
Paul
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:35 am

Paul Willis wrote:
Daddyman wrote:Just bumping this as for some reason it's disappeared from both "new posts" and "active topics". (New question above.)


Hi David,

Let me have a look and see if I can find any articles in the GERS Journal that may cover these coaches. It will probably be as they were built, and not subsequently modified, but it may be a starting point for you.

I'll come back to you...

Cheers
Paul

Thanks Paul!

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Paul Willis
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:40 pm

Hi David,

Well, I've had a bit of a rummage around, and like your extracted pictures above, I'm not sure that anything is any more clear...

The first challenge that I had was finding some reference. Googling for images of North Sunderland coaches seemed to give lots of pictures of four-wheel coaches, but it was difficult to get clear picture of any six-wheelers.

I then went back to searching the indices and contents of the Great Eastern Society Journals. As the society covers the successors to the GER, then I hoped that there may be something covering LNER or BR(E) usage of the coaches. Sadly, the only references to Sunderland were in football matches against Arsenal, and the so-named B17 and Class 66 locomotives...

Also in a couple of issues of the GEJ are a history by John Watling of GER coaching stock, summarising the development and design. I found that this is also on the GERS website at https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/carriages/introduction. Unfortunately, due to the convoluted way that the GERS holds rights to many images in their collection, the (more helpful) photographs of coaches included in the article have been replaced by line weight diagrams. The articles themselves also focus on the design "above solebar" and make virtually no mention of the underpinnings.

I do have the copies of the print magazines that this article is in, with the original pictures. Even given the exceptionally clear definition on some of the pictures, I still can't find a clear picture showing any safety loops. I don't have any construction diagrams of GER coaches - it's not really my interest, which is more on the goods stock - either, so I'm afraid that I don't have that as a way forward.

So in conclusion, in the absence of any positive confirmation of visible safety loops, I think that you would be on safe ground leaving them off. Until that elusive photo showing them turns up!

Cheers
Paul
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:48 am

Paul Willis wrote:Hi David,

Well, I've had a bit of a rummage around, and like your extracted pictures above, I'm not sure that anything is any more clear...

The first challenge that I had was finding some reference. Googling for images of North Sunderland coaches seemed to give lots of pictures of four-wheel coaches, but it was difficult to get clear picture of any six-wheelers.

I then went back to searching the indices and contents of the Great Eastern Society Journals. As the society covers the successors to the GER, then I hoped that there may be something covering LNER or BR(E) usage of the coaches. Sadly, the only references to Sunderland were in football matches against Arsenal, and the so-named B17 and Class 66 locomotives...

Also in a couple of issues of the GEJ are a history by John Watling of GER coaching stock, summarising the development and design. I found that this is also on the GERS website at https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/carriages/introduction. Unfortunately, due to the convoluted way that the GERS holds rights to many images in their collection, the (more helpful) photographs of coaches included in the article have been replaced by line weight diagrams. The articles themselves also focus on the design "above solebar" and make virtually no mention of the underpinnings.

I do have the copies of the print magazines that this article is in, with the original pictures. Even given the exceptionally clear definition on some of the pictures, I still can't find a clear picture showing any safety loops. I don't have any construction diagrams of GER coaches - it's not really my interest, which is more on the goods stock - either, so I'm afraid that I don't have that as a way forward.

So in conclusion, in the absence of any positive confirmation of visible safety loops, I think that you would be on safe ground leaving them off. Until that elusive photo showing them turns up!

Cheers
Paul

That's certainly a lot of hard work you've put in there, Paul - thank you very much. It's very kind of you and much appreciated.

You can get a good low-level view of one of the ex-GER carriages on the NSR (not the one I'm initially modelling as it was withdrawn before the line closed after a shunting mishap) on the Transport Library website (from where one of my crops was taken); however, the search function on that site is not very good, so anyone interested would be better googling "ns208807 transport library".

Thank you again, Paul!

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:26 am

I have recently, if I remember correctly, come across a comment about Midland 4- and 6-wheel carriages, which may explain this. Available pictures on the internet show no visible safety loops, which is because there are vertical connections attached to the cross shafts between the brake shoes, further inboard than the more usual safety loops. Possible the GER used a similar system? Please don't ask where I came across this comment, I haven't a clue...
Regards
Noel

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Winander
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Winander » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:51 am

Daddyman wrote:however, the search function on that site is not very good, so anyone interested would be better googling "ns208807 transport library".


Many sites have a poor search function, for instance this forum!

In such cases I use Google to search by prefixing the search terms with "site:" plus the url e.g.

Code: Select all

site:thetransportlibrary.co.uk ns208807

You can use all the google search syntax in the search terms. It gives the same result that David's does but is more focussed as it only searches the site you specifiy.
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:04 am

Thanks Noel and Richard!

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby bécasse » Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:01 pm

Noel wrote:I have recently, if I remember correctly, come across a comment about Midland 4- and 6-wheel carriages, which may explain this. Available pictures on the internet show no visible safety loops, which is because there are vertical connections attached to the cross shafts between the brake shoes, further inboard than the more usual safety loops. Possible the GER used a similar system? Please don't ask where I came across this comment, I haven't a clue...


I am fairly certain that I have come across 4/6-wheel carriages where chains were used to provide the back-up safety function in the event of linkages breaking. However, like Noel, I can't now remember details but I do wonder whether that might have been the situation here, the chains would have been suspended from a chassis member and attached to a "bracelet" round the relevant shaft and, obviously, both sides of the vehicle.

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby andrewphiliphanson » Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:25 am

David,

Is this photograph of any use?

92166044_10158517449280312_7629329361992155136_o.jpg


Unfortunately I neglected to make a note of the source when I saved it onto my computer a few years ago. If anyone recognises it or claims copyright then I would of course be happy to credit it or remove it as required.

What appear to be the brake safety loops are visible at the nearest end of the carriage.

Andy
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:43 am

That's a superb photo, thank you, Andy - one I've never seen before. It appears to be taken on the same day as some of the ones I've shown crops of, so my guess would be CJB Sanderson.

Regarding the safety loops, I think I'm seeing the same type as the ex-NER saloon shown in the crop a few posts back - but perhaps further in towards the centre of the vehicle. Is that others' impression?

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby essdee » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:25 am

Hi David,
Jenkinson and Essery's 'Midland Carriages: An Illustrated Review', page 23, has a diagram for a Bain bogie carriage, showing'3' 4" centres of safety loops', as one example?
Cheers,
Steve

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:04 am

andrewphiliphanson wrote:David,
What appear to be the brake safety loops are visible at the nearest end of the carriage.
Andy

Clearly you have mastered the art of seeing in the dark. However, I persuaded Gimp to shine some light under there and there does indeed seem to be something. :)
92166044_10158517449280312_7629329361992155136_o.png
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Keith
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:16 pm

essdee wrote:Hi David,
Jenkinson and Essery's 'Midland Carriages: An Illustrated Review', page 23, has a diagram for a Bain bogie carriage, showing'3' 4" centres of safety loops', as one example?
Cheers,
Steve

Thanks Steve - I'll probably go with that or a skeg-of-the-eye job.

grovenor-2685 wrote: However, I persuaded Gimp to shine some light under there and there does indeed seem to be something. :)

I persuaded Irfan View to do the same. But it's a very faint "something"....

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed May 11, 2022 8:02 am

Apologies to the virtual and OWBAG groups (and indeed members of the NERA), who've already seen these...
20220324_141032 MoTo.jpg


20220324_141050 MoTo.jpg
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:22 pm

North Sunderland Manning Wardle "Bamburgh" scratchbuild
One of the signature locos of the North Sunderland line was the Manning Wardle "Class L altered". It arrived on the line in 1898, was overhauled and modified in 1934, and was life expired in September 1947, having been run into the ground.
The loco has had to be scratchbuilt, as it was a one-off, so no kit exists. The build presents a number of challenges. First up, here's what I'm aiming at:
Screenshot (149).jpg


Below are some notes on methods for the ideal reader suffering from the ideal insomnia...

Saddle tank
A drawing of the loco appeared in MRJ number 8, and a dimensioned sketch in Wright's book The North Sunderland Railway. The latter confirms that the radii on the former are wrong. Head-on photos confirm Wright is, well, right. The challenge here was to get the tank wrapper curved in a deep, crisp and even way. I was at pains to avoid the uneven rolling I often see on saddle tanks of all shapes and sizes. This was the method I used - a plasticard former to the right size and radii, over which the 10 thou brass wrapper could be draped and bent. The former takes an evening to make - far less than the time for the previous three failed wrappers, and the year of despair that punctuated the failures. Ideally, I should have covered the former in Milliput to smooth out the "steps" between plasticard layers, as these did leave a slight imprint on the brass; however, that was easily sanded out.
20230424_145352.jpg


Here's the finished tank:
20230424_150004.jpg


Frames
Although no kit exists for the Class L altered, RT Models do produce a chassis kit for a Class K, which has the same wheelbase. Unfortunately, the frame profile is wrong for Bamburgh, so new frames have to be scratchbuilt in 15 thou N/S:
20230424_150431.jpg


In theory, I should get some inside valve gear from the kit too, though even if I could work out the instructions, it's fouling the CSB anchor points at the moment. What the kit does give me, though, are rods etched to modern levels of accuracy, from which (and not with which - see the FINE RUNNING thread) to set the hornguides. However, the rods are overetched, with the part that should make the knuckle etched away, meaning that they cannot be jointed on the knuckle and instead have to be jointed on the centre crankpin, with a cosmetic knuckle added later. Not ideal....

To set up the hornguides, I used my "gauges", again mentioned in the FINE RUNNING thread. Initially, these were set between the HL hornguide backing: for each hornguide, I measured the width of the backing (5.45-5.49mm), averaged it, then subtracted that from the rod centres and made my gauges:
20230409_124750.jpg

I tack-solder the hornguides on one side only, in case any adjustment is needed. I clearly hadn't tacked one well enough and it came adrift. When I repositioned it, I used Dave Bradwell's recommendation and made a new gauge, which I positioned between the hornways, rather than between the backing plates, in order to "cut out the middle man", as Dave put it.

Brakes
Again, in theory, the kit should provide some brake parts. However, Bamburgh had hangers of a different pattern to the K:
brakes.jpg


So some work had to be done to adapt the ones in the kit - a ten-thou overlay to the hangers, shaped to the correct profile, with the original holes used as drilling guides. Hopefully they won't (all) de-solder when I connect them to the pull rods etc...
20230424_151334.jpg


Fittings
I'd initially hoped I'd be able to use some of the castings from the K class kit, but unfortunately the chimney was too spindly and the s.box door too small. I have, however, got the tank filler and the spring castings from RT models - though the leading support on the front two springs will need altering. Name and number plates are from Planet Industrials.
20230424_152142.jpg


For the really important fittings though, I had to resort to a friend in a high place with grown-up tools. I commissioned Jeremy Suter to turn the chimney, s.box door and splashers for me using his lathe-thingy:
20230424_152530.jpg

I need to add the flange, straps and dart to the door. I have a plan for a jig that will help me position the straps - a piece of N/S or brass the same width as the straps are apart, curved to the profile of the door, and bolted through the dart hole while the straps are glued or soldered on.

Question: I think I have clearances worked out for the splashers, but could do with some confirmation from those more experienced in such things. The wheel centres are 7mm below the top of the frames. Half a wheel (over flanges) is 7.32mm. Given that the footplate is 10-thou thick, that seems to put the tops of the flanges level with the top of the footplate - which the blurry reproduction of the GA in Wright seems to confirm. That means that my splashers are only there to provide clearance for upward movement. Now John Bateson recommends 0.67mm movement distance plus the thickness of the splasher top (0.3mm), which seems to suggest my splashers should be 1mm high - seemingly confirmed by the MRJ drawing, though this is in 7mm, and doesn't quote dimensions. I also have the 5 thou base to the splashers that would act as a get-out-of-jail-free card, giving me an extra 0.17mm above the flanges. Does that sound enough? Have I calculated correctly?

Wheels
This is where the real fun starts. The MW wheels made by Gibson don't capture the look of the wheels on Bamburgh. They have 1/8th axles, which makes the centre bosses too big, and the balance weights are in the wrong place / of the wrong pattern. So as I'd done on the Y7 (further up in this thread), I used tender/bogie wheels, which give me a 2mm axle, and, aided and abetted by Dave, converted them to driving wheels using some cranks he etched for me.
Before I could fit the cranks, though, I had to fit the balance weights. Because these are flush with the tops of the spokes, rather than the wheel rims, I had to remove the rims; I could then fill (Devcon, then Milliput) and sand the faces of the wheel flat, before re-fitting the tyres. The wheels were then ready for the etched cranks, but first these latter needed the crankpins fitting.
The crankpin - or rather the bushes - are 1.52 (more on this below) brass tube soldered into the crank etches using a piece of tufnol with a hole drilled through it with the bench drill (to ensure verticality); the crankpin-bush-to-be is then held in that hole in the tufnol during soldering. Also added at the soldering stage were flanges/collars where the crankpin tube meets the crank etches. These are to space the rod off the wheel face; on a Gibson bush they are 0.25mm, so I made some from slivers of 2.0mm tube filed down to 10 thou using a piece of 10 thou as a filing "stop".
The crankpin bushes could then be filed to length: the rods were placed on the crankpins, topped by a piece of 5 thou and filed down; the 5 thou is to allow the rods some possibility of movement, so that the crankpin nut does not come into contact with them. Next will be the crankpin proper. For these on the Y7 I cut the head off a Gibson crankpin screw and glue it into my crankpin tube - this gives me something steel to screw the Gibson crankpin nut on to. The screw is a tiny bit loose (0.92 in a 1.00 hole) but this doesn't matter as the rods are not touching it but instead rotating on the tube/bush.
The cranks were then glued on to the wheel faces with Devcon Home. On the first two I positioned them using the axle, whereas on later ones I used a shaped cocktail stick. After 6 minutes the Devcon allows fine-positioning, for which I use strong magnification.
As said, the crankpin tubes are 1.52. I had two tubes nominally 1.5 in diameter. The other one was 1.47. I used the 1.52 as I know that the 1.6 drills that come in those Microbox sets are actually 1.56 or 1.57, depending on which side of the bed the vernier gets out of, and when the rods are drilled to 1.56/1.57 it offers the perfect clearance between them and the crankpin. I'm waiting for a motor and gearbox before I fully wheel up the chassis, but initial tests /sightings (John Brighton) suggest all the dimensions have worked out well and the rods will turn first time without binding or fettling - the result I've always had with my gauges.

Here are the parts for the wheels, with rejected Gibson MW bottom left, disassembled wheel top left, tufnol jig far right, finished wheel in the centre and crankpin tube and collar in there somewhere.
20230422_173615.jpg


This one shows the crankpin collars - slivers of 2.00 tube soldered to PCB - being filed down to the 10 thou "stop" or "gauge" to the side. It took a whole afternoon - most of it cleaning the solder off the collars afterwards; there must be a better way!
20230422_120842.jpg


Here are the crankpin bushes being filed down with the rods and the 5 thou filing "stop" in place:
20230423_121250.jpg


That's it. I'm nearly done with the nasty stuff. Soon it will be time for the pipes and injectors and the Roscoe valve and the Westinghouse pump, and I'll be able to enjoy my hobby once again...
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Last edited by Daddyman on Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Will L
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Will L » Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:05 pm

Daddyman wrote:... I'll be able to enjoy my hobby once again...

You can't fool me, you enjoyed every moment of that!!

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:21 pm

Will L wrote:
Daddyman wrote:... I'll be able to enjoy my hobby once again...

You can't fool me, you enjoyed every moment of that!!

Rumbled!

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Winander
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Winander » Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:15 pm

Daddyman wrote:there must be a better way

Daddyman wrote:lathe-thingy
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:47 am

Winander wrote:
Daddyman wrote:there must be a better way

Daddyman wrote:lathe-thingy


Well, progress has been made on that front: it's now in Oxford, as opposed to at my dad's house.

Still in a cupboard though...


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