Scalefour Workbench - the Homework

[John McAleely]

At the recent workbench, I was impressed by the variety of things we tried. One item we started was a turnout, using the ply & rivet technique.

I would have never considered it before (it needs knowledge of how to solder), but the morning's soldering practice set us up to have a go.

Terry had prepared all the sleepers, putting all the rivets in, and also supplied two of the filed rails. One was half of the crossing nose, and the other was one switch rail.

I had time to lay them out on the template, and also to construct the crossing nose, and have that reviewed by the teaching team.

That left the rest of the turnout as an exercise for homework. This afternoon I had a go. I started around 3pm, and laid out the parts:

B6-RH-Turnout-01.jpg

[John McAleely]

Has anyone else who was there had a go? I will post up the results of my afternoon's work after this posting. I am keen to see the results that we've all achieved!

[John McAleely]

Earlier in the week I printed out a copy of digest 23.6.1, and read it through a couple of times. I'm still learning all the terminology needed to describe this, and the annotated diagram on page one was very helpful! I've got it in front of me as I type this

Attaching the crossing nose seemed straightforward - just placing the (cleaned) rail in place, and then touching it with a soldering iron with some solder on the tip.

I did wonder if pre-tinning the rivet heads might be neater, so I tried that:

B6-RH-Turnout-04.jpg

You can see the dimples formed by the solder, but that was a problem - now the rail was impossible to hold in place before soldering it to the rivets. It would slide and wobble on the solder blobs. So I filed those off, and went back to my original technique.

I did find the paste style flux very handy - the stickiness helped to hold the rail in place while the initial solder joints were made.

After that, the turnout went together pretty much as the digest suggested:

B6-RH-Turnout-07.jpg

B6-RH-Turnout-12.jpg

you might notice that the rail I'm using is steel, whereas the parts from the workbench were nickel silver. I'm assuming mixing these two is not a problem (aside from the aesthetic issue of a difference in colour among parts of the turnout!).

[John McAleely]

Filing a matching pair for the supplied switch rail was fairly time consuming, but having a master to work to was very useful.

Soldering those in place just left the check rails to add, and I had a finished turnout to admire:

B6-RH-Turnout-17.jpg

B6-RH-Turnout-19.jpg

Running my wagon through it revealed a problem - the wheel would ride up as it crossed the crossing nose. Looking closely, it seemed to foul the wing rails, so I unsoldered the mid points of these and brute force eased them slightly. That seems to have cured the problem, at least with the workshop wagon:

B6-RH-Turnout-21.jpg

I'm keen to rig this turnout on to some sort of plank so that I can run a bit more stock through it, and also figure out how to motorise it.

[John McAleely]

So there I was - done. It was about 7pm, so the whole exercise took four hours.

One of the benefits of doing this at the workshop was seeing problems other than the ones I created, and the troubleshooting of them, so I would certainly be keen to try this again in the company of some experts.

I also found it useful to see the variety of tools people used. I only have a set of the P4 track company rolling gauges, and the digest suggested I should (at least) also have some gauges for check rail clearance. I assumed the lip on the gauge I used covered this, but did it?

I think I'd also like to use a gauge that more positively holds the rail in position. Do other gauges do this?

[grovenor-2685]

I'm assuming mixing these two is not a problem (aside from the aesthetic issue of a difference in colour among parts of the turnout!).

As you surmise the only problem there is the aesthetics.
For a first attempt your crossing alignment looks very good in pic. B6-RH-Turnout-12.jpg so I'm a bit surprised you needed to tweak it. Could have something to do with your limited set of gauges however. It does pay to have a Crossing Flangeway Gauge and a checkrail gauge.
A couple of things I note that you might like to improve.
1. Timber no 27 is out of place which will give you a problem when you come to fit cosmetic chairs. Just get a strip of card, and work along the timber melting the solder and sliding the card between rivet and rail, once its off you can reposition it and solder it back.
2. There seems to be little if any flare on the ends of the wing rails, this should match the flare on the check rails opposite.
But its a great first attempt, you should be very pleased.
Regards
Keith

[Paul Willis]

Has anyone else who was there had a go? I will post up the results of my afternoon's work after this posting. I am keen to see the results that we've all achieved!

No, but this morning I built my first P4 Track Company kit

It was both easier and more difficult than I expected. Some things were undoubtedly a lack of familiarity - a second one would be much easier to build. Some of the issues that I had were possibly ones that could be made slightly clearer in the instructions. In other words, I got the right end result, but had to do a fair amount of detective work to find exactly what the coding system of the components were.

A turnout in a box - in this case a steel railed right hand B8.

P4Track 013 (Medium).jpg

As there was no soldering or other heavy work involved, I didn't even bother building this on my workbench. The basic components are just laid out on my computer desk and held down with blutack.

P4Track 015 (Medium).jpg

Before long the pre-formed crossing vee and the closure rails were in place on the track bases. These are a great time saver as there is no need to lay out individual timbers.

P4Track 021 (Medium).jpg

The switch blades come as two separate units and are fixed at either end to a further trackbase. Slide chairs are then positioned underneath the moving part of the blades and fixed in place. Also shown is the primary track gauge that I use - part os a set of Brook Smith gauges bought many years ago from the Store, and which have served me well since then.

P4Track 024 (Medium).jpg

And this is the finished object. It probably took me about three and a half hours in total to build it, which to say that unlike ply and rivet track doesn't then need separately chairing, is quite a rapid result.

P4Track 025 (Medium).jpg

The overall process wasn't entirely faultless, and doing the final two stock rails caused much cursing as a couple of chairs split rather than going cleanly onto the rails. However there were plenty of spares in the kit and I got there eventually. It certainly builds up into a solid piece of track, and I would have no hesitation in using these as an alternative to ply and rivet if the need was for a straight piece of pointwork in a standard size and timbering.

Flymo

[John McAleely]

For a first attempt your crossing alignment looks very good in pic. B6-RH-Turnout-12.jpg so I'm a bit surprised you needed to tweak it. Could have something to do with your limited set of gauges however. It does pay to have a Crossing Flangeway Gauge and a checkrail gauge.

I'm building up a little shopping list. I also lack a back-to-back gauge, and that's quite a high priority. I did check the wagon with the gauges at the workshop, (indeed Terry showed me how to correctly use it), so I think its fine.

A couple of things I note that you might like to improve.
1. Timber no 27 is out of place which will give you a problem when you come to fit cosmetic chairs. Just get a strip of card, and work along the timber melting the solder and sliding the card between rivet and rail, once its off you can reposition it and solder it back.
2. There seems to be little if any flare on the ends of the wing rails, this should match the flare on the check rails opposite.

You're quite right. I think I made the mistake of lining up rivet heads with where I felt they 'ought' to be (In my head...), rather than sticking with the drawing (Doh!). The card method answers my next question too, so I shall be shifting timber 27 at some point soon.

I did a bit of basic googling, but I haven't turned up a supplier of 'cosmetic chairs' yet - do they go by other names? I had assumed I would find them quickly on (say) C+L's website, but no luck. Or are 'chairs' exactly what I need?

As for your second point, there doesn't appear to be any on the drawing (you can see it quite well in B6-RH-Turnout-04.jpg). Is this something that varies on the prototype?

But its a great first attempt, you should be very pleased.

Thank you very much. I am!

[John McAleely]

No, but this morning I built my first P4 Track Company kit

That's quite a lovely turnout there. I do think the P4 TC kits build into nice models.

I've built a couple myself, and the second one just fell together! Since that's all I need for the inglenook I have planned, I need to think of another use for my new turnout above...

[Paul Willis]

I did a bit of basic googling, but I haven't turned up a supplier of 'cosmetic chairs' yet - do they go by other names? I had assumed I would find them quickly on (say) C+L's website, but no luck. Or are 'chairs' exactly what I need?

Hi John,

There are no longer (AFAIK) chairs sold separately as "Cosmetic" chairs. There used to be and I have a couple of packs still of whitemetal ones from the days when ply and rivet was the *only* way to build track.

These days, just choose your prototype variety from P4Track Co (http://www.exactoscale.co.uk/4mmtrack.html) or C&L (http://www.finescale.org.uk/show_page.php?pid=104#) and cut them in half with a scalpel. That way you get the choice of 2, 3 or 4 bolt chairs to suit your prototype company.

HTH
Flymo

[grovenor-2685]

As for your second point, there doesn't appear to be any on the drawing (you can see it quite well in B6-RH-Turnout-04.jpg). Is this something that varies on the prototype?

The flareout does vary but not to the extent of being missing! Mostly the bend to form the flare would be 3' 6" from the end of the rail, but could be as short as 2' 6" in low speed areas. This would apply to both check rails and wing rails.
In some formations, eg crosovers one or both wing rails may be extended to form a check rail for an adjacent crossing, in which case the wing rail itself would not be flared but the end of the extension would. For very high speed applications check rails are made longer to allow a much more gentle flare, often only on the entering end for normal running. The angle of the flare should give a flangeway of 3.5" at the end based on a crossing flangeway of 1.75". With overscale flangeways the end gap should be increased by keeping the angle the same.

gle-3.gif

Regards
Keith

[JackBlack]

and cut them in half with a scalpel.

The only problem with this is that they don't *quite* fit over the rivets. Which leads you to the horrible job of grinding the sticking out bit of the rivet off each side of the rail. It's doable, but it's a horrible job, and led me to my current track-building method of sliding the chairs onto the rail and gluing them to the ply sleepers...

[John McAleely]

OK, so given the above, it sounds like I should raid some chairs from the pile I purchased from the P4 track company for straight track, and then affix them to the turnout.

As for the wing rail flare - I see it clearly on the drawing posted to illustrate. I've run my steel rule over the drawing in the template, and there is none on that drawing. Is there a set of templates (I have templot) that do have the flare on them?

[grovenor-2685]

Is there a set of templates (I have templot) that do have the flare on them?

Perhaps because I built lots of track before Templot I had not noticed their absence. Just had a look at Templot and indeed they are barely evident if at all. The pre-printed templates sold by the stores (and by P4 track Co)do show the flares as did the P4-Society and S4-Society ones before them. But its really of no consequence when building as long as you know its there, it will soon become second nature to add the flare to check rails and wing rails. I make a mark 14mm from the edge of my building board to guide gripping the rail in the right place in the pliers to make the bend.
For rivetted track its worth a read ofthe original source http://www.scalefour.org/history/manual/P4-416.htm
Regards
Keith

[John McAleely]

Is there a set of templates (I have templot) that do have the flare on them?

Perhaps because I built lots of track before Templot I had not noticed their absence. Just had a look at Templot and indeed they are barely evident if at all.

Interesting. My comment was poorly phrased, but I learned something anyway I don't know where the template used in the workshop came from, and I was wondering if I printed a templot template I would get the flare marked in.

As you suggest, it doesn't sound hard to just add it anyway.

[chrisf]

I thought it was about time I did my homework. It's been hiding in my briefcase for almost two months.

Here is my workpiece after a little over three hours' work:

model pics Apr 2010.jpg

I don't yet have filing and assembly jigs but have ordered them and thought that a short cut or two would be in order to get on with the job so I bought a ready-assembled vee and a pair of ready-filed blades. I also decided to experiment with the RSU that I have had for two years and hardly touched. Reading Digest 23.6.1 and Iain Rice's book in bed doesn't make me a sad person but did prepare me for the experience, as well as reinforcing my long-held conviction that an expert is someone who disagrees with another expert.

I began by locating and attaching the vee. I'm not sure what the A sleeper to which the Digest refers is but the vee seems to be in the right place. I then decided to fix the straight stock rail on the basis that the straight bit of the vee provided a basis for gauging and a steel straight edge ensures a straight line. At this point I couldn't help noticing just how wavy was the line of rivets, due at least in part to the sleepers not adhering constantly to the double sided tape. Then came the wing rails, spaced from the vee with the spacing gauge. At this point I checked the alignment and running quality with the Comet coach bogie that it took me 6 hours to assemble all that time ago and found that all was well, amazingly. Then the curved stock rail was added because there was enough straight track at each end of the point to be able to use the triangular gauges.

Work then ceased for the day because when I opened the packet of point blades I discovered that they need to go back to the manufacturer. I could have made two left-hand blades myself without buying them! Oh well, cheats never prosper, do they?

Using the RSU worked quite well. I fixed the croc clip to whichever rail I was soldering and made the joints using Carrs 179 solder paint in a syringe, augmented from time to time with Powerflow flux applied with a cocktail stick, minus cheese. At times I was reminded of the smell of woodsmoke because that substance [I hope] was being given off from the work. On balance I think I would rather sniff butanone. That pleasure is still to come if/when I apply cosmetic chairs!

Still to come: check rails, stretcher bars, actuation and two properly made blades. Oh: I do know that the gauges are the wrong way round ...

Chris

[grovenor-2685]

Work then ceased for the day because when I opened the packet of point blades I discovered that they need to go back to the manufacturer. I could have made two left-hand blades myself without buying them! Oh well, cheats never prosper, do they?

You could probably have made one of each in less time than all the posting back and forth, and learned another skill as well. But it was probably all for the best as you do need to do some rework before you fit the remaining parts.

I began by locating and attaching the vee. I'm not sure what the A sleeper to which the Digest refers is but the vee seems to be in the right place.

The digest should be referring to timbers rather than sleepers, the A really refers to the chair that holds the nose of the crossing, hence the timber the A chair fits on. In this case timber 27 so no problem there.

I then decided to fix the straight stock rail on the basis that the straight bit of the vee provided a basis for gauging and a steel straight edge ensures a straight line. At this point I couldn't help noticing just how wavy was the line of rivets, due at least in part to the sleepers not adhering constantly to the double sided tape.

That may be part of the cause but the 3 steps before that are more important, 1- marking out the positions to punch for the rivets accurately, 2- punching (or drilling) accurately to the marks, 3- placing them accurately onto the tape in the first place, this does all take practice to get good at it. Incidentally, did no-one tell you to place your rivets to your timber numbers were on the back? Makes it much easier to stain or paint without the numbers showing through.

Then came the wing rails, spaced from the vee with the spacing gauge. At this point I checked the alignment and running quality with the Comet coach bogie that it took me 6 hours to assemble all that time ago and found that all was well, amazingly. Then the curved stock rail was added because there was enough straight track at each end of the point to be able to use the triangular gauges.

Wing rails and curved stock however do appear to be where you have been a bit hasty and not made enough use of your gauges. You need to remake both before you add any more parts. You missed the Wing rail flares just as John did, discussed at length in the posts above. I'll explain the rest as soon as I can prepare an illustration. NB the RSU is just as good for removing rail
I have some step by step photos here http://www.norgrove.me.uk/shed-relay.html but the steps are to coarse to illustrate my meaning so I will prepare some better ones. Meanwhile reading this might also help, it was my bible when I started. http://www.norgrove.me.uk/shed-relay.html but ignore references to WCS and TBS, they were not a good idea.
More to follow

Oh: I do know that the gauges are the wrong way round ...

Oh: but there is nothing wrong with the position of the gauges in your picture!
Keith

[grovenor-2685]

I have blown up your pic a bit and annotated it to help this explanation. Don't let any of this discourage you, its intended to help with the learning, I learn't most of these things by trial and error too. Our thanks are due to you for offering up your work for comment, giving everyone the opportunity to learn.

First wing rails:

file-kn3.jpg

I have marked in light blue where the flares are needed, you would have to take the wing rails off to bend the flares anyway so may as well fix the rest while you are at it.
I have added red lines along the running edges, you can see that the curved road wing rail does not line up. This is caused by the knuckle bend at A being to far left and also by not using the track gauge to hold the wing rail (not possible as you had not put the curved stock in place). The knuckle bend at C is to far right leading to a bit of misalignement in the straight wing as well. The knuckle bends MUST always be directly opposite each other approx at position B. Anytime you see then not so then you know immediately there is a problem that needs to be fixed before soldering in place.

Now the curved stock:

file-kn2.jpg

Here there are two issues, the kink or bend in the stock rail that should be just ahead of the switch tips is not evident, if you did one at all its at to shallow an angle, the bend has to take the stock rail to an angle equal to the switck planing angle so that the switch can fit up against it and still be to gauge. This is crucial to a satisfactory switch, without it the result is tight gauge ad derailments. The angle concerned depends on the switch, for A switches 1:24, for B switches 1:32 and for C switches 1:40. Draw the relevant angle on the side of your template, or on a seperate piece of paper to help in making the bend. The section D-E should then be straight with the turnout curve resuming thereafter, but not getting into a reverse curve as appears to happen between F and G.

[chrisf]

Keith

It was very kind of you to take the time to produce such an extensive critique! The wing rails do have a flare but clearly it is not sufficient. I shall pu tmyself into detention tomorrow!

[quote="grovenor-2685"]
That may be part of the cause but the 3 steps before that are more important, 1- marking out the positions to punch for the rivets accurately, 2- punching (or drilling) accurately to the marks, 3- placing them accurately onto the tape in the first place, this does all take practice to get good at it. Incidentally, did no-one tell you to place your rivets to your timber numbers were on the back? Makes it much easier to stain or paint without the numbers showing through.
[quote]

All I can say here is that we were issued with the sleepers ready punched, riveted and numbered. Terry?

Chris

[grovenor-2685]

All I can say here is that we were issued with the sleepers ready punched, riveted and numbered. Terry?

Another joy still to come then I suppose the day was supposed to concentrate on soldering
Regards
Keith

[Rustyrail]

I'm assuming mixing these two is not a problem (aside from the aesthetic issue of a difference in colour among parts of the turnout!).

As you surmise the only problem there is the aesthetics.
For a first attempt your crossing alignment looks very good in pic. B6-RH-Turnout-12.jpg so I'm a bit surprised you needed to tweak it. Could have something to do with your limited set of gauges however. It does pay to have a Crossing Flangeway Gauge and a checkrail gauge.
A couple of things I note that you might like to improve.
1. Timber no 27 is out of place which will give you a problem when you come to fit cosmetic chairs. Just get a strip of card, and work along the timber melting the solder and sliding the card between rivet and rail, once its off you can reposition it and solder it back.
2. There seems to be little if any flare on the ends of the wing rails, this should match the flare on the check rails opposite.
But its a great first attempt, you should be very pleased.
Regards
Keith

Timber 27 is slightly out of template alignment as Keith points out; however, not all turnouts have perfectly symmetrically laid out timbers or of "standard" lengths. Such phenomena can be seen on lesser used lines (sidings for example) and within industrial complexes. There used to be a perfect example of this at the Beamish railway museum next to the signal box. I would imagine that sleepers that are seen at a slight angle to their neighbours might have moved over time due to poor or light ballasting, aided by missing chair keys, or some might be laid like that in the first place. Likewise, when repairs are made to turnouts on these lines the PW team will use what timbers they can obtain, hence non standard lengths. For my layout I have built a B6 point exactly like this, with some timbers at slightly odd angles and with non standard lengths; the chairs are then glued to the timber but positioned in such a way as to still have all four faces of the chair in contact with the sleeper. It works well and doesn't interfere with rolling stock movements. I used C and L thick plastic timbers and chairs. I'm not sure about ply and rivet in this context though.

If building P4 points for the first time, the above practice might best be left alone until more experience has been accumulated by building standard turnouts according to template layouts, but it is worth pointing out. As usual, always refer to the prototype via photos or site visits.

Cheers
Simon

[grovenor-2685]

Timber 27 is slightly out of template alignment as Keith points out; however, not all turnouts have perfectly symmetrically laid out timbers or of "standard" lengths.

Just to be clear my concern here is related to the positions of the rivets under the rail so they can be soldered properly and cosmetic chairs can be fittted without to much trouble, rather than the cosmetic aspects of accurately lined up ends etc. On these I agree with Simon.
Regards
Keith

[Rustyrail]

Ah... I'm with you now Keith. I can see that could be problematic.

Cheers
Simon

[David Knight]

RE: cosmetic chairs; may I respectfully suggest that there is a middle path between the full ply and rivet method and P4track Co.? The method being that outlined by that nice Mr Rice in his book on trackwork ("An Approach to Building Finescale Track in 4mm", Wild Swan, ISBN 1 874103 003) that has rivets on every fourth or fifth sleeper with cosmetic/functional chairs threaded on the rail between. You still have to hide the rivets but there are only a quarter of the number to hide and the cost is comparable to straight ply & rivet. Usual disclaimer applies here.

HTH

David

[chrisf]

I attended remedial class this afternoon and have sorted out my knuckles! I may learn to love this method of construction in due course but a P4 Track Co turnout kit is awaiting my pleasure and has the potential to be slightly less blunderproof: we shall see. This effort will probably end up as part of my track test plank which in addition to being a test track is also a test-bed for trackwork methods. This one currently ranks as my least favourite!

Keith: the content of the workbench was (i) an introduction to soldering (ii) compensation of rtr stock using rocking inside bearings (iii) rewheeling a Bachmann Jinty with Ultrascale drop-in wheel sets and (iv) ply and rivet pointwork.

John: sorry for hi-jacking your thread!

David: Good suggestion! My copy of that nice Mr Rice's book is not only well-thumbed but autographed and seldom far from the insomnia pile beside my bed. Given the choice I'm not sure that I would have chosen to go down the ply and rivet road but it was part of the syllabus ...

Chris