Advice on a shed for a layout

Making room for a layout, where and how?
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jon price
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Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby jon price » Sat May 29, 2021 10:23 pm

Not really starting in P4, but not sure where else this would go. Can anyone offer sensible advice on obtaing a shed for layout purposes? Something probably the size of a single garage. Buying as a package vs installing insulation and electrics separately?

(Now moved into the "Layout location" subforum. KN)
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Philip Hall
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Philip Hall » Sat May 29, 2021 10:49 pm

I found a company locally who gave advice and quoted for a substantial ‘garden studio’ style building. As I wasn’t bothered about a decorative timber finish inside, preferring to go for plasterboard and white paint, they advised that a ‘log cabin’ would not be warranted, and that a well insulated building would be the best idea. And that has worked out well. I did the design myself, just the front elevation, and chose to have a local double glazing company supply and fit the windows and door a few days after the building was erected. It arrived from Wakefield at 6.30 in the morning one day with three burly blokes who were gone by midday!

A carpenter friend and I fitted out the inside over a period of months, and then got an electrician in to finish the wiring in the building and the house. We (my friend really!) dug a partial trench for the power cable and laid the cable to save money.

A large chunk of the cost went on demolition of the existing concrete garage and a huge amount of concrete for the new base. The electrician’s bill was an ‘ouch’ moment as well. Because of its footprint (21ft x 20ft) and height we needed both planning permission and buildings control approval, but care with the size of your building should render that unnecessary.

I must admit that I didn’t consider a package as I had some specific requirements in mind and this seemed to be the way to get them. I wanted a more substantial timber frame, heavy duty flooring and as maintenance free an exterior as I could get. Apart from a brush down every so often, the only maintenance is a coat of (expensive) wax based coating every two years.

I don’t know where you live but if it’s near Surrey I would be happy to send a link and a recommendation. Attached are a couple of photos, outside and inside.

Philip

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jon price
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby jon price » Sun May 30, 2021 6:14 am

Thanks Philip for this comprehensive answer, and the details of your excellent shed. It looks like getting the basic structure installed by people who know what they are doing, but fitting out by myself, plus an electrician, is the way to go. If this happens it is likely to be within c 50 miles of Carlisle, and you mention the shed builders travelling from Wakefield to Surrey, so info on the company would seem useful. Can you PM me the details?
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun May 30, 2021 8:28 am

There are a wide range of sheds available which range from those sold as workshops and therefore a bit more robust than normal garden sheds to very posh garden offices. Suppliers will usually sell sheds as a kit of parts for the purchaser to put up. Normally supplied in complete sections that just require bolting together and roof sections that drop in place with roofing felt to be applied afterwards. Floors also supplied in sections. Normally a two person job to assemble. My present shed is 24 feet long and 8 feet wide and two of us got the basic structure up in a day and then part of a second day to fix the felt. This came from a local supplier and was the second that I had from the same place. Fitting out took longer.

Laying a base is more work. The supplier recommended laying as base of 2 foot square grey paving slabs on a bed of sharp sand (Available from a builders' merchant) This is a lot less work than laying a concrete slab. My present building has been in place for 11 years and there have not been any problems with subsidence. Even if the site is not quite level as mine was, this method can be used with some shuttering ply to retain the base.

The power supply needs care. Part P of the building regulations require as a minimum the the work is checked by a qualified person and the final connections are made by a qualified person. At the time I put up my present shed these had just come in and I was able to find an electrical contractor who would let me do the work and he did the checking and connections. That may not be the case these days. This is one area where it is not wise to do it yourself unless you are sure of your skills and knowledge.

My building is insulated with slab type insulation to the walls and ceiling and is lined with hardboard and this keeps the temperature in summer and winter reasonable but there are lots of ways of doing this. Mine is not nearly as posh as Philip's and others which have been featured on here but it works for me and was within my budget.

Terry Bendall

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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby shipbadger » Sun May 30, 2021 8:59 am

Some years since my shed was built but before anything else I suggest you think about the subsequent running costs and efficiency of the building. I had a local contractor lay the floor slab which incorporates insulation slabs. I didn't have this done in my workshop as I was worried about the weight of machinery on the floor. In retrospect it would have been OK. You can tell the difference when walking around in the winter months. The walls have insulation and plasterboard, skimmed with plaster by a friend of my son at mates rates. Windows are double glazed and have roller blinds for a more 'homely' feel in the winter. Doors are fitted with draft strips. Heating (it's a fairly large shed) is by a couple of oil filled radiators which have frost stats. I also have a de-humidifierer which works automatically. There is also a fire and burglar alarm system.

Don't forget to investigate the electrical supply, my supplier insisted on a separate meter and supply but this may be because the site was previously the local builders workshop which was separately metered. You need to think about where your power sockets will be and at what height up the wall. I made a mistake with regard height and mine clash with the height of the baseboards. Lighting is the other consideration and at the moment is in a state of flux as even the most economic flourescent tubes are now being rivaled by LED systems.

You may not want or need it but somewhere for a cordless phone is something else to consider. Most of my friends still tend to use 'landline' rather than mobile. The mobile coverage is not brilliant where I live.

This could look a rather daunting list but it's much easier to view any potential building if you have thought things through first. I even traveled from Gloucestershire to Kent when I was looking before finding someone much closer to home (sadly now withdrawn from the business). I now have a warm and dry building in which I can spend many an hour without thinking, 'if only'. Finally do not even think of putting your modelling stuff into the shed until the work is done as it's a recipe for difficulty in doing the work and potential damage.

Tony Comber

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John Bateson
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby John Bateson » Sun May 30, 2021 9:33 am

I had planned to move my railway from the attic into a new garden 'shed' after a small legacy made this a practical option.
Things and authorities got in the way and we ended up with a Premium Plus Avon W3.0m x D4.0m Dunster House when we aere aiming for something quite a bit larger.

The local landscaper and general building stuff for the outdoors, put in a slab of concrete slightly above the surrounding level where it got quite wet in heavy rain and other work such as improving the garden drainage (we are solidly on top of Buckley Clay here) plus a very nice patio area around the shed and an access path of about 20m. Included was the electrical trench and installation and a few new panels for the boundaries. All for £5.1K.

The shed itself is double hulled, with 4" insulation under the floor, in the walls and in the roof. The outer hull or shell is free to move with varying temperatures. This came to just over £6.6k.
Then I added workbenches (kitchen cupboards) and got back to work, no railway but a pile of kits and stuff to finish.

In retrospect this has worked out quite well, in spite of the difficulties along the way.

The balance of the legacy sent my daughter and family to Australia - but they came back a month later ....
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John
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Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Sun May 30, 2021 10:35 am

After looking at the alternatives, we had a 7.0m x 4.0m Cedar clad garden room installed by a local Suffolk company one year ago. They supply a complete package except for final connection to the electricity supply and decorating. Whilst expensive (but not as much as some comparable pre-fab cedar clad packages), we consider it will add to our property value.

Palais du Jardin.jpg



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The specification includes full insulation, flooring, plastered walls and ceiling, LED ceiling lights, programmable heater, etc. The building stands on galvanised pillars, bolted to the floor subframe and set into Postcrete filled holes. Access would have made a concrete slab base difficult, but not impossible, to install.

So far the only downside is that the foil faced insulation creates a Faraday cage and makes radio reception - which is poor here anyway - impossible. Hilary was also disappointed that the ceiling isn't high enough to install a glitter ball! With the heater on a timed program at 14 deg. it stayed warm enough through the winter with just a short daytime boost to 17 - 18 deg. for comfortable working.
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Winander
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Winander » Sun May 30, 2021 1:00 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote: we consider it will add to our property value


Apparently the lockdown and working from home created a demand for "garden offices" not only to provide the extra space but to give the psychological impression of travelling to work - the same benefit as not putting your (or your kids) work desk in a bedroom. I would consult an estate agent or valuer before proceeding as it may favourably influence your budget and domestic management's view. Apparently an internet connection is a must as well as the usual mod cons.

I look forward to the Cumbria Region AG inaugural visit!

regards
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jon price
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby jon price » Sun May 30, 2021 2:32 pm

This is all excellent advice (and no I wasn't thinking of doing the electrics, just getting a local electrician). This is however all speculative planning so Richard may have some time to wait. We have to sell our house and buy another first!

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Philip Hall
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Philip Hall » Sun May 30, 2021 3:24 pm

Jol,

My foil backed insulation does exactly as you describe to the radio reception. I have been managing until now with hissy reception using an old coathanger! However, as a few years have passed since construction and I am allowed a roof aerial I am arranging for a DAB/FM aerial plus a small TV aerial to be put up which should solve the problem. Unfortunately it's not cheap but a necessary expense.

An internet connection was a thought but there were not enough wires in the cable from the house to allow for that so I decided that a retreat from the internet down there would be a good idea. Plus I have a mobile phone which covers the odd eventuality. A phone signal is another drawback but installing a new cordless system with a longer range will solve that.

Philip

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Winander
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Winander » Sun May 30, 2021 3:54 pm

Foiled backed plasterboard provides a vapour barrier to stop warm air getting to the cold substrate and condensing with disastrous results. An alternative is to use polythene behind normal plasterboard. Products such as Kingspan and equivalent have some form of metallic lining.
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Philip Hall
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Philip Hall » Sun May 30, 2021 4:18 pm

Our wall has 100mm deep timbers with 90 mm insulation (Kingspan or whatever the builders yard had) so there is a little gap behind the plasterboard and plywood walls. So far it has been nicely cool in summer and warm in winter with no damp etc.

Philip

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Tim V
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Tim V » Sun May 30, 2021 4:29 pm

As for the internet, I successfully use those internet over mains adapters to get to my garage/workshop - which is out of reach of the Wi-Fi in the house. I have an old router connected in the garage with a fixed ip address and DHCP turned off - so it acts as a slave to the main router back in the house.
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby andrewnummelin » Sun May 30, 2021 5:02 pm

A couple of decades ago when we had a new timber garage and hobby room built we thought of a few things but got a couple wrong!

Building:
- stable door was nice (fresh air, garden smells, hearing the postman, call for dinner,...)
- consider hammered glass windows (not so much for privacy but for avoiding distractions - watching the birds instead of modelling was a hazard)
- think about screening of the building, planting, window boxes, paving, rainwater collections,...

Electricity:
- can you take power overhead rather than having to dig a trench? (Professional advice needed)
- surface mount rather than recess all sockets and cable runs (easy to change later. In our current house I ran trunking right round the garage into which sockets can be fixed wherever one wants - above workbench but below baseboards is probably best)
- work out how many sockets you will need and double the number
- have neon lights on all socket switches (when leaving the room at night, turn off the lights and a quick glance will show if you’ve left anything turned on)
- have a pull cord for the lights by the entrance door (easy to find in the dark and safe if it’s raining and you are wet...)
- motion sensitive light outside so you can see the lock in the door (or some sort of smart system)
- fit (an) external socket(s) as they will be useful in the garden
- DIY for the internal electrics is easy and will save a lot of money but get a professional to do the external work, check what you have done, make the final connection and issue the safety certificate.

Phone & Internet
- don't just think of now you may need something more later
- we ran a phone extension alongside the electricity supply - that was fine when we had just dial-up but was no good once we had broadband
- consider an ethernet or optical cable, easy to do when you are digging a trench for electricity but no fun later
- consider Tim's suggestion of powerline adapters - excellent frequently but performance may be below expectations if the ring mains in the house and garden are electrically well separated (eg on separate consumer panels). In our old house with the garden building around 10m from the house powerline adapters' signal speed were substantially reduced but in our current one those in the garage work very well)
- unless your mobile phone signal is very good indoors it would be sensible to run a conventional phone extension alongside the electricity supply (in a pvc pipe)

water:
- if you are digging a trench for electricity consider adding a water supply, you probably won't need a connection to your drains waste from our sorts of activities can probably go on the garden

weather:
- don't do what we did and have the shed built in the wettest February for decades, the poor carpenter swore he'd never do a similar job again!

Have fun!
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

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John Bateson
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby John Bateson » Mon May 31, 2021 10:18 am

There has been a lot of good sense in this thread, but I have seen a number of concoctions over the past years, not all to do with model railways though. Perhaps it is worth a technical note if somebody would compile it. I have added a few notes based on my own build some 5 years ago.
JohnBateson


Electricity:
- can you take power overhead rather than having to dig a trench? (Professional advice needed)
- surface mount rather than recess all sockets and cable runs (easy to change later. In our current house I ran trunking right round the garage into which sockets can be fixed wherever one wants - above workbench but below baseboards is probably best)
- work out how many sockets you will need and double the number
- have neon lights on all socket switches (when leaving the room at night, turn off the lights and a quick glance will show if you’ve left anything turned on)
- have a pull cord for the lights by the entrance door (easy to find in the dark and safe if it’s raining and you are wet...)
- motion sensitive light outside so you can see the lock in the door (or some sort of smart system)
- fit (an) external socket(s) as they will be useful in the garden
- DIY for the internal electrics is easy and will save a lot of money but get a professional to do the external work, check what you have done, make the final connection and issue the safety certificate.


Overhead cable is not recommended for distances greater then 3 metres. Otherwise you are likely to have a catenary system. My parents had this and you could see the stretching over time since it was otherwise unsupported.
Surface mount - yes - definitely. Much easier to change positions and layouts later on as you say
Doubling the number - bet that will not be enough once you start to cable up a layout
Pull cord - not keen - too fragile - better a large square plate switch on the inside of the door frame
External socket - I prefer to open a window and drag a cable through when doing the garden things - not a fan and they can be expensive.
The trench these days with its armoured cable and yellow plastic bits has all sorts of rules, best to have a prefessional do it and get your professional electrician to check it at the same time.
Definitely get a professional for the wiring. He/she/other will probably insist on a consumer unit for the new shed (note this will also mess up WiFi 3-pin plug in boosters). Most importantly you should get a certificate which it is important to keep should you ever need to sell the shed with its attached house and garden. Solicitors are getting very keen on checking these things as my sister can repeatedly remind me. Also planning permission, just keep any paperwork nice and safe, that seems to be another thing solicitors check.
Don't do the internal electrics yourself. A professional will do it in a quarter of the time, just mark the places where you want the sockets and lights. My electrician did 6 double sockets and 4 overhead LED lights in less than 2 hour plus you get that certified on his Part P paperwork.

I wish I had taken up the offer of laying an ethernet cable in my trench! Big mistake. Huge.

Water in the shed. Although it seems to be done regularly, it should be laid in a seperate trench at a deeper depth than the cable. I think it is in the water regulations and to do with possible freezing. A tap/sink in the shed is an option I considered but decided against because it gets rather cold on top of my North Wales hill.
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon May 31, 2021 12:09 pm

I've just put up a 12' x 8' workshop shed: the larger, stronger version of a garden tool-shed. Instead of pouring a concrete slab, I built a retaining wall of concrete blocks, set rather carefully to exact level, then filled it with scalpings and rammed earth to get a level top. On that, I put a plastic-grid base, ballasted with Meldon gravel, 15 mm screen. The panels of the plastic base are joined with cable ties, and the base becomes quite rigid before ballasting. The prefabricated floor of the shed sits directly on the ballast.

This is the second garden-building I've built on this kind of base. The first one has been up a few years with no signs of the base giving problems.

I think that arranging your own glazing is a good idea. On my wife's studio, we bought the glazing units with the wooden structure and they were rubbish.

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Winander
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Winander » Mon May 31, 2021 12:45 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:The panels of the plastic base are joined with cable ties


How long did they take to 3D print :twisted:
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DougN
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby DougN » Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:57 am

Just a note for every one thinking a single trench will be OK for Data and power.... No there needs to be a separation between the 2 - bare cables are 300mm running parallel but I don't know what the effects and distances under ground for conduits are like. It is also a good option to know where the end of the conduits are so that if in the future you do need another cable (internet, telephone, teleporting system!) have at least double the size you think you need and ask for a draw string to be installed also.

I know the engineers I have been dealing with for years allow a 1/3 spare capacity for all conduits and cable trays. Though in my buildings I have no idea how you would run an additional cable with out a well train Dachshound I have no idea! :o :D :D
Doug
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Will L
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Will L » Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:29 pm

DougN wrote:...in my buildings I have no idea how you would run an additional cable with out a well train Dachshound I have no idea! :o :D :D

In my day I think they used to blow new wires through, or at least a draw string. Our under floor ducts got very full!

Terry Bendall
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:52 pm

Will L wrote:In my day I think they used to blow new wires through, or at least a draw string.


The alternative is what is known as a Wireman's tape also sometimes known as a draw tape. This is a coil of thin spring steel or wire which can be pushed through a piece of conduit or cable ducting and can then be attached to the cable to be drawn through. It does of course assume that there is sufficient space in the conduit or duct

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Tim V
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Tim V » Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:11 pm

Just remembered the other essential in the outside workshop - an extension of the doorbell! You don't want to miss those important packages ...
Tim V
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Penrhos1920
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Penrhos1920 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:42 pm

Tim V wrote:Just remembered the other essential in the outside workshop - an extension of the doorbell! You don't want to miss those important packages ...


Most delivery companies allow you to specify a safe place should you be out. Mine simply says “the shed”!

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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:53 pm

The trouble with having a doorbell in the workshop is mine is at the bottom of the garden. So by the time you’ve heard the bell and got up to the house the driver has gone. Or more likely, dumped the package on the doorstep. I guess at least you have a chance of getting the package before someone pinches it!

Philip

dclift
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby dclift » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:44 am

As you know Phil, my railway room occupies half of a garage at the bottom of the garden about 30 yards from the front door of the house, so pretty much the same distance as yours. The front doorbell rings in the railway room and I do have to move quickly to catch the postman though other callers usually wait longer. Having the bell there as well as in the house is also handy if we are in the garden.

As well as wires to the doorbell and underground electric power, the trench to the garage also carries a pipe to our ducted vacuum system (useful for vacuuming the car as well as the railway room), a telephone cable and a cable for an intercom which we have never installed. Alas there is no internet cable because we had not cabled the house when the garage was built. When the house was cabled, I purchased a usb wireless adapter which has no problem getting a signal through a double brick wall from a wireless transmitter attached to the wired network in the house. The adapter is a tplink TL-WN722N and sits in the window of the railway room where the signal strength is strongest. This would also solve the Faraday cage problem. Having an internet connected computer in the railway room is very useful and I also use it for streaming radio because f.m. radio reception in the garage is atrocious. The only issue is that, if I want to print, for example a Templot plan, from the railway room computor, it prints over our network but the printer is in the house; what a hardship!
David Clift.

shipbadger
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Re: Advice on a shed for a layout

Postby shipbadger » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:23 am

I have a sign which hangs on the front door knob when I'm 'up the garden' - 'If no answer try the garden or workshop at rear'. It's surprisingly effective.

Tony Comber


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