Etched kits, techniques - videos?

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BrockleyAndrew
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Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby BrockleyAndrew » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:11 pm

Well I'm definitely in awe of kitbuilders working with tiny bits of bendy brass. I've been building a horsebox. I think I've got the bending of the sides relatively accurate...but...

Even getting the fine detail pieces out of the fret is something I am finding tricky and trying to keep them flat/unbowed even while manoeuvring them into place is a challenge.

I'm sure there must be beginners vids around? I've read so many kit build articles with photos of how to get the pieces once cut out together but would love to see someone cut the pieces out without bending them so I could do the same.

I am half pleased with my results but would like to be more fully pleased.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

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Paul Willis
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:39 pm

BrockleyAndrew wrote:Well I'm definitely in awe of kitbuilders working with tiny bits of bendy brass. I've been building a horsebox. I think I've got the bending of the sides relatively accurate...but...

Even getting the fine detail pieces out of the fret is something I am finding tricky and trying to keep them flat/unbowed even while manoeuvring them into place is a challenge.

I'm sure there must be beginners vids around? I've read so many kit build articles with photos of how to get the pieces once cut out together but would love to see someone cut the pieces out without bending them so I could do the same.

I am half pleased with my results but would like to be more fully pleased.


Hi Andrew,

It may be that someone knows of a good video showing this. I'm afraid that I've not come up with anything having just quickly looked. My initial thought was perhaps on the various loco-building demonstrations as part of the excellent Missenden Virtual Autumn Weekend https://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/index.php/virtual-missenden-recordings/

Unfortunately, I didn't chance across anything there.

If no one else comes up with any suggestions, in a couple of days, I could do something. I can rope my wife in again to hold the iPhone for me, and video some demonstrations of using chisels, snips and knives, and the pluses and minuses of each. I can stick it on my YouTube channel. And naturally the Society can copy it across to the Society channel if they wish.

I'll keep an eye open and see what comes up.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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David B
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby David B » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:08 pm

I cut pieces out on a hard surface, a piece of black perspex, using a sharp 1/8" chisel. The 1/8" is not critical but it does need to be sharp and small enough to get in to spaces to cut the tabs. I put the chisel on the tab hard against the part and just press firmly and evenly. Rarely do the parts bend and I have been doing this now for several years. I keep the chisel sharp by honing it with a few strokes of a stone every so often.

Just had a thought. The tabs are usually half etched so make sure they are against the perspex. If they are the other way up, there is a gap beneath them and then things are more likely to get bent.

andrewphiliphanson
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby andrewphiliphanson » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:34 pm

The series of videos on building a 2mm finescale wagon kit might be of use/interest as it covers building an etched nickel silver underframe (and a plastic body). The videos were the result of 3 evening 'Zoom' workshops led by Nick Mitchell last year. Although they cover the construction of a 2mm scale model I think most of the techniques are also applicable to 4mm modelling.

Part one is located here;



and subsequent parts should appear in the listings on the right hand side.

Andy

BrockleyAndrew
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby BrockleyAndrew » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:04 pm

Great, thanks, very useful replies. Was trying to work out if a sharp shock cut works best over slow scoring in delicate pieces on a fret. Didn't know if I needed to be patient and cautious or bold be quick.

One thing I keep learning is to stop and wait if it's not going well!

David Thorpe

Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 am

Tony Wright's Right Track DVD on locomotive kitbuilding can be watched at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1DGQsX ... e=youtu.be

The Right Track range of DVDs are no longer available, but there was a recent discussion on this forum (viewtopic.php?t=6961) where a link was given to a site from which a number of the DVDs, including the one on loco kit building, could be downloaded. Unfortunately it seems that that link no longer works.

DT

DougN
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby DougN » Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:09 am

MY suggestion on Etched brass and part removal is the Etched shears from Xuron. A long time ago I used the chisel on a block but the shears make removing the left overs dead easy. These shears are so good I have found at times I can remove just the cusp on the brass.

The very tips become flexible over time but still seem to cut and are very fine. Mine have had a lot of work so are starting to show their age!
Doug
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Paul Willis
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:25 am

BrockleyAndrew wrote:Great, thanks, very useful replies. Was trying to work out if a sharp shock cut works best over slow scoring in delicate pieces on a fret. Didn't know if I needed to be patient and cautious or bold be quick.

One thing I keep learning is to stop and wait if it's not going well!


Andrew,

Your learning point is very well observed!

For delicate parts (and indeed less delicate parts) slow and steady pressure is the way to go. There is a no benefit of a short, sharp shock, and you are more likely to slip/bend something/ping it off into the furthest corner of the room. We are not aiming to split slates, or make joints in wood - the material characteristics are entirely different.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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David B
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby David B » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:50 am

David Thorpe wrote:Tony Wright's Right Track DVD on locomotive kitbuilding can be watched at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1DGQsX ... e=youtu.be

The Right Track range of DVDs are no longer available, but there was a recent discussion on this forum (viewtopic.php?t=6961) where a link was given to a site from which a number of the DVDs, including the one on loco kit building, could be downloaded. Unfortunately it seems that that link no longer works.

DT

David's post reminded me of the Missenden virtual Autumn Weekend 2020 which contains many useful articles on loco/kit construction and a lot of clips from a number of the Right Track videos.

There is another virtual Weekend from Missenden this coming Saturday and Sunday, 6th and 7th March. Tim Watson is doing a Zoom session on Saturday afternoon which you may find useful. There is still time to register for this. Details are here. The Weekend is free and open to everyone.

andrewnummelin
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby andrewnummelin » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:35 am

I don’t think there is an optimum method. I’ve just finished work on some wagon kits and am working on a loco and have found that a lot depends on the design of the etches. How far apart the bits are, how the tabs are placed, are there bits within bits, are bits removed from the outside of the etch or from the middle, size of the bits, straight lines or curves, thickness...

I found myself using “chisel”, knife, end cutters (special for etches), snips, scalpel, piercing saw and even just flexing.

I suppose one might even try a laser, or etching, or ...
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

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Will L
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby Will L » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:46 am

BrockleyAndrew wrote:...I'm sure there must be beginners vids around? I've read so many kit build articles with photos of how to get the pieces once cut out together but would love to see someone cut the pieces out without bending them so I could do the same.


This is a technique issue not a tool issue. The point is that most practical methods of cutting tabs between bits of etch forces the parts apart. Hence can cause distortion if the bits being forced apart are delicate and are held firmly in place by other tabs. On some tabs this wont be a problem on others it will be. If you keep this in mind and chose the order you cut the tabs so that you minimise the problem, you can usually get the bits out distortion free.

I use a chisel type tool. You need to cut onto a hard surface so you don't distort the tab, and the bits it's attached to, downward with the cut. For larger reasonably robust bits, my normal wooden cuttimg board (dense veneer faced chip board) is fine. For more difficult, usually very small, things a hard metal surface that will not distort downward is required, but it isn't good for the chisel so I only do it this way when necessary. I don't have anything specifically to do this on, any flat sided steel tool that wont be damaged materially will do My old 12" steel rule that has gone so dark you can barely read the graduations for instance.

My "chisel" tool is actulay the modified Xacto craft knife blade held in a standard 1/2" round handle. (do they still sell these mine in better than 50 years old). The tip is ground off to form a chisel end about 2mm wide and ground again to a sharp edge. My scrawker (hook shaped tool for scouring sheet metal or plastic), is also ground into the back of the same blade. I keep the remains of the original blade reasonably sharp so at a push it will do for it original purpose too. It is by far an away the single most useful toll I posses with a number of other uses, For instance I use the handle to role curves into brass sheet against my thigh. The current reincarnation is getting very worn and isn't as square ended as it was but it still works. I will probably have to grinned myself a new one soon, probably when the scrawker tip brakes.
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 pm

When I switched, a few years ago, from normal craft-knife to a chisel-bladed knife, I found that I was cutting much more neatly and with less distortion. Building on Will's technique-not-tools point, there's something subtle about the vertically-applied knife that helps. The blades don't last long but are cheap and easy to get on-line.

I cut on a normal cutting mat and find that hard enough to avoid problems.

BrockleyAndrew
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby BrockleyAndrew » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:57 pm

Thanks everyone for the replies and pointers, really helpful.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:12 pm

The late John Hayes, a superb builder of etched 4mm loco kits that appeared in MRJ, used a tab chisel (should we say tag instead of tab?) he ground from a hacksaw blade, as per the attached drawing. He generously made one for me, along with some great solder scrapers.

I use this with the etch on a piece of smooth Formica faced chipboard. I give the chisel a light tap with a 2 oz hammer, the flat face of the chisel against the etched part being removed. This usually doesn't cause any distortion and leaves very little cleaning up, if any, of the etched part. The possible exception is when cutting out very narrow items such as a brake linkage. That is usually overcome by using a sequence in cutting out the other parts, leaving the more fragile parts to last an/or by cutting away any etch edge surround first.

tag chisel.pdf


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dclift
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby dclift » Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:56 pm

DougN wrote:MY suggestion on Etched brass and part removal is the Etched shears from Xuron. A long time ago I used the chisel on a block but the shears make removing the left overs dead easy. These shears are so good I have found at times I can remove just the cusp on the brass.

The very tips become flexible over time but still seem to cut and are very fine. Mine have had a lot of work so are starting to show their age!

I suspect that my Xuron etch cutting shears have a similar problem as you can see below, and, no, I didn't drop them. The end became bent after a year or so of use, but it is not flexible. They still do an excellent job and, as Doug reports they remove the cusp. They are amongst my most used tools.

Jol Wilkinson wrote:The late John Hayes, a superb builder of etched 4mm loco kits that appeared in MRJ, used a tab chisel (should we say tag instead of tab?) he ground from a hacksaw blade, as per the attached drawing. He generously made one for me, along with some great solder scrapers.

I mentioned my use of hacksaw blades some time ago but was rebuked by someone who pointed out that he never broke hacksaw blades. If you wait until they are worn out, and I have several of those, it is not difficult to break them up for a life after cutting steel They can be ground and honed to a razor sharp edge and used as Jol points out. Like the cutters, they get a lot of use. Interestingly, mine are 0.68 mm thick which suggests another possible use, but I haven't actually tried this.
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davebradwell
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby davebradwell » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:51 am

This is perhaps a good opportunity to remind new designers that only a few small tabs are required to hold an etch together. I draw tabs typically at 0.7 wide for 0.3 brass and 3 or 4 of these will hold quite large parts. Small items only require a single tab. Multiple large tabs make the problems being discussed far worse and I've built some horrors over the years where it's hard work just getting the bits out of the fret with the attendant issue of distortion.

Like many tyros at the time, I benefitted from the wisdom of Phil Jennings at Chempix about 30 years ago and although he wanted a stable sheet for ease of manufacture, he also showed just how small tabs can be. One of the hobbies unknown heroes.

DaveB

Philip Hall
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Re: Etched kits, techniques - videos?

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:44 am

Following John Hayes’ article, I ground an old hacksaw blade to John’s shape but at a 45° angle and fitted it to an old screwdriver handle. I put a little wooden block over the edge of the blade so I could press down rather than use a small hammer. I sharpen it up from time to time with a few passes on a diamond lap. It cuts very close to the parts, even half etched ones, with no distortion. The cutting picture is posed; I actually cut on a hard laminate sheet.

Philip

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