West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

[Le Corbusier]

Neil,

I came to the same conclusion ... but beyond a workmans train I couldn't think of another reason a half cab might venture up the line apart from maybe travelling to shunt at Millersdale. That is where my curiosity about its presence at Bakewell was piqued as many felt that a ballast train was not wholly convincing for its presence in the station. ... but I think we should draw a lie under this - perhaps if you have any further thoughts you could post on my monsaldale thread

[Allan Goodwillie]

Tim,
one last thought before you do, it may just have been the only engine available and was a one of case - I know of several in the guard's log I was telling you about the normal loco was not available on a couple of occasions and a "modern" freight loco was used to pull the passenger train, one possibly fitted with the appropriate brakes, but on another occasion it was an ancient small tank engine in its last days! In more modern times I know of a "Crab" which managed to get as far as Anstruther on a train and at least one WD 2-8-0 that found itself along the East of Fife railway branch. Both recorded in a photograph. I have also seen a video film of a Deltic on the early morning paper and parcels train in Leven - certainly surprised this local! The proof in all these cases being that someone had thought it unusual enough to take a photo of it.

I was waiting until this little diversion was finished Tim before adding any further info on the engines and appreciate it being moved on back to your own thread, which as you know I am finding very enjoyable as it seems to go into many areas, but reflects what it is like fr someone building a layout for the first time and asking all the right sort of questions. This is the beauty of the Forum in that the questions are asked and the answers go all over in different directions - although I have been using Zoom to make contact with all sorts of groups, questions get asked just the same but the answers are not recorded in the same way as they are here.

Allan

[Allan Goodwillie]

Finishing models - looking at techniques.

I have been asked to put some information up looking at what we might do when finishing models. Some of the decisions and techniques employed.

So I decided that since it was Sunday evening I would put up some photographs of the engines that I have been working on as they are being completed to the first stage, which I regard as getting to the point where they are basically complete and operable. Since I started with the small Barclay I maybe should put up a few shots of the engine standing on the shed roads and WPR main line rising up behind. The scenery is still at an early stage with one or two small buildings and a crane to be completed and also needs quite a variety of materials and detritus lying about, typical of any industrial situation. Having said that the WPR did keep their place reasonably tidy, all of which will come to fruition on the model in due time.

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The engine is now coupled to its bunker wagon and has reached the stage of its first proper test run and it moves reasonably well for a new locomotive, I am not entirely satisfied, so will do some tweaking until I get it right - this is something I want to cover in this section - which is all about "Finishing", not just getting your locomotive to run well, but just how far you want to take the detailing, the painting and lining, the weathering and whatever you plan to do to the engine at a later date - going DCC, sound, etc.

Tonight however it is just a few pictures to whet the appetite and to make a few general comments on examining your stock at this stage of the proceedings and to make corrections and improvements. One very salutary thing to do is to set your model down in a good light and take a photograph and expand it up to see what it may reveal - do not over expand it or you may be shocked to see just how far off the real thing it appears. Do not think that in 4mm you will be able to get the detail you might expect from a 7mm model. There are limits to any gauge, in time, space and money. Persist with your photographs to get clear focused shots of the engine and put them on your computer for display and consideration.

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If we take the first shot but from a slightly different angle what do we see. Well by taking a different angle we an see a better view of the side's relationship to the front. We can also make out a number of things that some might consider wrong or not well enough made.

1) The first that strikes me is that the buffers have a certain level of droop. Now the first thing to say is that I am building a model of a locomotive as you would have found it after many years of operation and it was not unusual to find droopy buffers and that was the case with this loco, having been built in 1912 if memory serves me correctly. It was not unusual to see whole classes of locomotive which suffered this way as metal fatigue took its toll. So these are meant to be that way. The same could be said of the safety vales and the safety valve cover, which does not sit quite right - so I will not be changing these. There are also intended dents in the cylinder cover, not particularly noticeable at this stage.

2) There is one item that does irritate me and that is the base of the Giesel chimney which being a fairly new fitment would have had its attachment sorted out and that there would have been no gaps showing around the bottom edges - a slight problem which will be corrected - the plan was to be able to swap chimneys if I should desire - the model has an opening smokebox with access to the screw holding the chimney in place. So this will be corrected before final painting/weathering stages. The back axle end has still to be painted, missed for some reason. There will be more and I will add them for correction on a correction list.

3) This is perhaps the most important comment to help understanding of what is needed at this stage. The lettering I have done using transfer sheets and a bit rough compared to some techniques that are now possible using computers and printing. To be completely correct the letters should be in yellow and not in a creamy white, however if I wanted a fully ex-works finish I would normally have put a thin wash of yellow paint over them after they had been fixed in place using varnish. This thin wash of enamel would be finished off with a final varnish coat. However I am not too worried at this stage as I intend for this engine to get a proper weathering and the light lettering - well you will hardly notice it under the grime. It is a while ago that I did promise Julian that I would do a demo for him. So in a couple of weeks I intend to cover that.

I will continue with a new page.

Allan

[Allan Goodwillie]

Part 2 of this evenings submission.

Again it is possible to see signs of metal fatigue built into the model, the Giesel Ejector is a better fit on this side. I am sure you will spot other things, but that is the purpose of taking shots at this stage. It is interesting to see photographs taken at all stages of the production of the model and with the other Barclays I have done that throughout their construction. A nicely finished, but unpainted model can be a delight in itself. I have been enjoying watching Lindsay Galloway's locomotive that he has been building from one of John Boyle's kits and he is making a cracking good job of it and cleaning up properly at every stage before taking photographs - an absolute delight and very good practise.

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There are other little things that annoy the eye in the photographs - particularly the lack of chairs fitted to the points and the relative plainness of the grass embankment still requiring work, but that is for another day. The items requiring finishing will be noted for each engine at this stage and dealt with in time. All I am doing at this stage is taking stock before any final improvements. So over the next couple of weeks we will have a look at progress and righting some of the wrongs, not just with the Barclays but with the other locos under construction for the layout.

Allan

[Allan Goodwillie]

When I am getting towards the final stages and I have painted and added any lining/transfers that I want and have managed to get the locomotive working, I make a list of items to be added or finished off using an XL sheet a sample of which I have attached here. As I am progressing 9 locomotives at the same time it makes this list seem a bit of a monster, however something similar is still worthwhile even if you are only doing one locomotive. it is a good thing to make a snagging list as it makes you look critically at the work already done as well as being able to check what is missing and needed for you to complete your model to the level of detail you would wish. The sample sheet I have attached may not have all the details you might want on your own model, but of course you can add any category you like. I came across a model railway where all the "engines" were mouse operated recently and would include some very strange "additions". Sorry they are not S4 as such but this is just to illustrate.

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Unfortunately I do not know how to add an XL sheet here but attached is a photograph of a small section of it taken from my screen by way of example. Items to be completed are filled in RED and those completed GREEN There are further stages filled in ORANGE to be done at a much later date even after the locomotives are running. ON my layout for example I will be going over to DCC at some future time, but not immediately and I would also like sound, again not straight away. There is an extra line for each locomotive in case there is much to be added to one of the categories. Also listed in red are testing stages to make sure any additions operate if necessary.

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Here is my list of headings on this particular snagging sheet -

Locomotive number
Missing Items to be made
Missing items to be fitted
Number /Name/Builder plates
Glazing/glazing bars
First test
Lamps/fire irons/buckets/coal/cans
Crew
Couplings (Decorative)
Couplings (Operating)
Additional weight
Additional electrics
Sprung buffers
Further additional details
Fit Cab interior
Fit cab roof
Second test
Additional lettering/paint
Weathering
Digital chip
Sound chip and speaker
Final test

Allan

[Allan Goodwillie]

Being the weekend, I thought I would post the next engine up.

It is WPR No.16 which was the Prototype of the larger Barclay locomotives. After a trial period it was decided to make one or two changes to the design for the following locomotives, therefore No.16 has a number of detail differences especially in the water tank area but it also had one or two other small details different. The engine is depicted in its 1950's and early 60's livery - the locomotive was withdrawn in '62 and was replaced by another No.16 - this time a J94tank locomotive. The livery was what could be considered as standard for a while (if there was such a thing) - a darkish chocolate colour for all bodywork, black under frames and smoke box and red coupling rods.

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The model is also going through final fitting out before the next step which is weathering. I have taken a few photos this morning to show its present state and one thing that shows up and will be rectified is that from this level there is a piece missing from the boiler underneath - which is quite noticeable in the photograph - also in the tank spacing which allowed for the crew to inspect the innards the reversing lever is missing off the far side. The tanks had filler caps at the front and a continuous handrail along the tank top. The tank was slightly shorter and there was more space between the tank front and the smoke box. There are some small pipes and oil cups as well as a pyrometer to fit and the hooter will be replaced using the proper piping when I get around to it. Some of the lettering is still awaiting some refinement, etc. etc. - a surprising amount when you consider that it looks quite finished and is being tested for the first running stage.

I will continue this after tea!

Allan

[Andy W]

No. 16 has bundles of character. Your locos really do give the impression of weight. Marvellous.

[Allan Goodwillie]

Thanks Andy
These were powerful engines and robust, it was No.16 that tumbled down the embankment at Scott's Road shed and survived despite ending upside-down. That's when they added a check rail to the curve on the gradient coming down into the yard. (I am modelling the check rail and gradient, but have no intention of dropping off locos in an attempt to simulate the crash.) The Wemyss system had a very good safety record incidentally and surprisingly good track-work on its main line, the NCB on the other hand did not maintain theirs nearly so well.

Here are another couple of photographs of the engine at its present stage. I have turned the engine around facing towards Methil and the coast which is correct for the line, which is something I have always wondered about as the steeper and more prolonged climb was from the washer at Methil heading up towards the Wemyss Area. Normal practice was to face up the gradient to help keep the water level above the firebox at all times, however the engines were worked the other way around facing up the shorter climb away from Scott's Road.

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I was born in Buckhaven within the sound of these engines working up from the Wellesley washer heading inland up the gradient at full throttle with anything up to 40 wagons behind with a second locomotive banking the train. The train engine signalling by hooter (as that is what they were fitted with) to the signalman what route they were bound for. The noise was terrific. My mother took me in my pram to Swan Brae where the climbing trains could be seen close up and to full advantage, which for a small child was more than spectacular! Indeed when a bit older I used to have nightmares especially at exam time at school when I would dream I was falling on to the tracks as one of these monsters came hammering around the curve. They sounded like LMS 2-8-0s both the sharpness of exhaust when working flat out and the LMS type hooter also gave that same impression Here's another photo.

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I like the ground level shots and hope that at exhibitions this is what everyone will see, not the seagull shots.

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The rough old sleepers in the yard are beginning to come on - they became more worn as the years went by. The surface has been modelled using old Pizza bases - a material which is now in short supply - so save while you can!. Well that is No. 16 as she is at the moment.

Allan

[Julian Roberts]

Superb scenes Allan. Look forward to the weathering!

[Le Corbusier]

Part 2 of this evenings submission.

.... the Giesel Ejector is a better fit on this side.

Strange Chimney

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[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Tim,
I remember seeing them as they were introduced at Methil Docks on the NCB lines engines, two of the 1912 engines were done and two of the J94's they looked so strange at the time - something quite alien in fact. I have been updating No. 21 which I have had now for many years and it is on its 4th rebuild, I have had it running from the 1970's and until recently had not seen any model fitted with one. Probably most modellers feel they are too un-British and perhaps downright ugly, but I do not care it is nice to have something different and contrast with the other locos.

They had quite a soft exhaust unless working flat out and even then the grunt always made them seem puny compared to other locos around, but I am sure they were still very sturdy and probably much more efficient. No.21 is finished and already running and at straight from the works condition. They were always filthy as they were never cleaned, which is a pity as it looks rater nice for an ugly duckling when in fresh paint. I will post it up here as part of the batch , but along with the other J94's I have been working on, after I have posted the other Barclay tanks.

The print of the original Rev Audrey Peter Sam is just so typical of the period and carries the softness from childhood of the 1950's unlike many of the more modern graphic approaches to the Thomas Tank stories - all read many an evening to my son and daughter over and over again when they were small. British illustration for the time had a warmth about it which we seem to have lost as time passed and we became more influenced by America and Japan in our graphic design, or Bauhaus for that matter.

Allan

[Le Corbusier]

Hi Tim,
No.21 is finished and already running and at straight from the works condition. They were always filthy as they were never cleaned, which is a pity as it looks rater nice for an ugly duckling when in fresh paint. I will post it up here as part of the batch , but along with the other J94's I have been working on, after I have posted the other Barclay tanks.

Any chance of some video?

The print of the original Rev Audrey Peter Sam is just so typical of the period and carries the softness from childhood of the 1950's unlike many of the more modern graphic approaches to the Thomas Tank stories - all read many an evening to my son and daughter over and over again when they were small. British illustration for the time had a warmth about it which we seem to have lost as time passed and we became more influenced by America and Japan in our graphic design, or Bauhaus for that matter.

That's interesting ... now you mention it. I am a big fan of Shirley Hughes .... who posibbly falls into the earlier British tradition?

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[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Tim,

yes really nice and within the British School. Here is one of my own from my first couple of books, don't want to stray away from the thread as it is not railway orientated, but thought you might be interested that I do things other than model railways. Here is one from the cover of "The Beautiful Witch"which was the first of my children's books.

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I am intending putting up some video of the engines being tested as part of the build - will have to work out the best way to do this - I will be in contact with Julian tonight and will see what he recommends.

Allan

[Allan Goodwillie]

Enough of that Tim,
It's time we went on to look at some of the engines as they reach the painted stage and first running tests. The second locomotive of the three big Barclay engines is number 18 which from what I have been able to find out during the 1950's and 60's was painted in a black livery. Now I am well used to models of plain black livery, in fact about half of my BR engines are in plain black, but when an engine is the only one on the layout in black the black takes on a different sense of it being a colour.Beside the other engines it stands out. Again looking at the photographs there are a few changes I would wish to make. The buffers are temporary as I have misplaced the ones originally bought for this engine - they will turn up when I am doing something else I am sure. The engine is bereft of some of the smaller details - number plates, hooter, pipes, pyrometer, window grill, crew and a few other details, a slightly better fit for the cab roof is also on the list, however it does run well despite needing running in, however this is where it is at just now.

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One or two other engines of this design worked separately on a couple of other lines, to no great acclaim it has to be said, but they came into their own I think because of their way of dealing with the gradients on the Wemyss line and they spent less time in general shunting.

Allan

[Le Corbusier]

cracking stuff Allan .... and I think the illustration is rather wonderful too ....

[Allan Goodwillie]

Thanks Tim,

glad you approve! Here are a few other pictures of no.18. In its latter days it was in a very German looking livery with everything below the footplate in red - by this time I was at Art College and do not remember ever seeing it in this late livery. One or two flaws in the paintwork will be rubbed down and dealt with before weathering. Must have been dust in the atmosphere when I was spraying the varnish I am afraid.

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That's all for this evening

Allan

[Allan Goodwillie]

Barclay No.17

Well here we are another Sunday night and looking at the 3rd large Barclay in the series.
Can't believe just how quickly the time is passing. Again the engine is at the same stage as the others, basic painting and lining in this case done and several small details to be dealt with, including fitting the Barclay Number plates, as well as snagging of paintwork, but the locomotive runs on test, and needs to be bedded in.

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So what is missing at this stage?Again the hooter and associated piping, working couplings, The piping leading into the smokebox, but not much else, although I intend tweaking the lining here and there as there are one or two imperfections. One mechanical thing is the mechanical lubricator on the other side as I feel there is too little movement in the mechanism - it could also do with some tiny pipes leading to the inside mechanics, although most people would not notice if they were left out. I will fit them later on all three of the large Barclay locomotives.

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Again I will put up the other side on a separate page.

[Allan Goodwillie]

No.17 continued......

Having built and painted No. 17 I rather like the fully lined out version - you never know I might just go and build No. 19 as well at a later date! I do intend building No.20 disassembled in the works as its boiler was sent back to Barclay's at one point and there are nice photos of some of its bits being moved around the yard by No.17 in the Wemyss Book. - something for phase three of the layout.

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And that's enough for this evening. I hope everyone is staying safe and well and making good progress with your own projects.
Allan

[Allan Goodwillie]

Well here we are in the middle of the week.

Time passes quickly when you are busy and I am trying to get the engines finished to a certain point. This little engine is the smallest of the Barclays - it is an engine that I have had for about 40years and decided to back date the locomotive to a much earlier type.It has always been a good running locomotive and appeared on many a friend's layout at various shows. Virtually every aspect of the locomotive has been altered. No. 26 was handed over to the newly created NCB in 1947. It is still waiting on a spark arrester which will add another characterful detail.

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I will follow up with the other side of the engine next......

[Allan Goodwillie]

Small Barclay part 2

No.26 was based at the local colliery called Lochead, about a mile away from the Scott's Rd yard. The Wemyss system had quite a few of these little engines. One was based at Scott's road, but often worked at the brickworks.

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Next one Sunday

[Le Corbusier]

how much weathering will you apply to this loco Allan .... How bright would it have actually been as a working engine?

[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Tim

The norm in the Fife area was for the NCB engines to gradually become increasingly dirty. In the 1960's they were cared for less and less until by the 1970's they were so filthy that it was difficult to make out what colour the engine was, never mind about making out whether it had lining or not! As to no.26, I am not sure whether I have seen this particular locomotive or not - I have a feeling that I did see it when I went around the scrap yard in Thornton, possibly even took a photograph or two, but have not been able to find the photographs in my collection so far. Since it spent most of its time at the colliery and I never managed to get there on my bicycle, unless it was at Scott's Road when I visited I probably did not see it operating. In these days I did not take many photographs of local colliery engines as at the time I had little money for film and assumed that the engines were going to be around as long as there were going to be collieries in the area.

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One of the pleasures at the moment is to place the locomotives on the layout and appreciate the colour contrasts - you would have to be at Carlisle in pre-group days to have seen such an array of locomotive colours! The next locomotive is blue and there are also dark red / chocolate and a darker green to come. Of the colour photographs I have seen of the engines, the weathering was not too bad and I suppose if the engines were recently back from the shops they would come back in fresh paint. I hope to show a range, as that will produce something more interesting and realistic. It is not the very late days I want to model, but the late 50's and early 60's, so the engines will be in reasonable working condition, nothing too drastic! One or two of the smaller locos were a little bit better looked after than the larger examples and just how they were exposed to the weather also mattered as the engines ran one way around and could show differences between one side and another as most of their lives they had one side facing to the south and one to the north and exposed to the sea air.

The Wemyss locos were better looked after and seemed to be well cleaned and cared for during the 50's and early 60's only in the 1970's did the standards really drop with both NCB and Wemyss taking a dive. The smoke boxes on the Wemyss locos in particular, could have a very shiny appearance and were polished with an oily rag. Insect life in this part of Scotland years ago was prodigious in the summer and cars and even locomotives could be seen with an oily insect layer on the front. The maximum speed out on the Wemyss main line was 30mph and it ran through quite a few miles of open fields and woodland. The level of insect life now is almost non-existent which is most worrying considering just how much of the rest of nature depends on it. Scott's Road like any a Scottish industrial set up was out in the country surrounded by farming. My model has the field boundaries running the full length of the modelled area.

No.26 will get some weathering - in fact it really needs it to get rid of the toy like appearance, but weathering is important to get any sense of realism, with care it can give a refining quality and may even bring out some details as well as putting back others. It is one of these more artistic areas that requires a lot of understanding and observation to get right. Of course those whose engines are just for show in glass cases tend to only like their engines to be in ex-workshop condition. (Whatever that actually was - but I will not stray into that area just now.)

Are you intending to weather your engines and stock?
Allan

[Le Corbusier]

Hi Tim
Are you intending to weather your engines and stock?
Allan

Hi Allan,

Thanks as ususal for such a comprehensive and interesting response .... fascinating.

Personally I am a fully paid up member of the weathering fraternity. Whilst I love the locos and rolling stock, it is the whole model which is the canvas, and within that context it would be more than a little odd not to weather the locomotives so that they settle back realistically into the overall scene. .... of course whether I will be capable of producing what I aspire to is another question entirely. Furthermore, my chosen period of the 1902 Midland will require a subtle touch as the locos and carriages were kept in pretty good nick .... so I will need to be particularly vigilant to avoid any toy like appearance. My intent is to weather the liveried portions just enough to give the impression of traffic and a slightly 'oily' shine whilst going to town a little more below the running plate and on the top surfaces. I have some interesting black and white images which hint that the recieved wisdom of pristine condition might be somewhat rose tinted ... particularly with regard to freight and shunting engines.

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[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Tim,
Great photograph as well as interesting information. The burning of the paintwork on the locomotive sides very interesting - quite common on engine smokeboxes due to lack of maintenance common in BR days, but very interesting to see an engine in such a distressed state. As cleaning was regular in these far off days, drivers and fireman sometimes doing it during stops on journey as well as back at the shed with proper cleaners. The cleaning pattern on the splashers is very interesting! The info about lining around domes etc. very interesting as it does not show up too well on photographs. Something we have had is discussion on how often locos were painted in the old days - have not found out anything concrete as yet, but maybe someone will know. Wagons often took years to be repainted, if at all - there were still "Wemyss" lettered in large lettering still running that way 12 years after the change to NCB.

Allan

[grovenor-2685]

That could do with fresh brake shoes, the pull rods must be rubbing on the flanges.