Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:37 pm

I am hoping to ease tensions and pour oil on troubled waters here...!

The OP which I wrote was about the comparative arguments for secondary springing versus not, and about seeking the experience of those who have used the two commercially available P4 compatible bogie assemblies suitable for the 10' bogie I need for the Ratio Clayton model.

So thank you Dave for clarifying more about the Pendleton version (especially the bit about increasing the pendulum length to reduce oscillation frequency), and to Ted for more wisdom about secondary springing in general.

I have learned a great deal reading all this, so thank you all. And as previously stated, I will be putting in orders for both types to do some comparative trials of my own to see what I am actually capable of building reliably (this could be an issue for me :D) and to see what I feel works best for me.

But this isn't me closing this thread down to further debate - any more wisdom will be gratefully received!

All the best

Neil

billbedford
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby billbedford » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:25 am

Of course, there are alternatives:


IMG_1451.jpg
Bill Bedford
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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:35 am

billbedford wrote:Of course, there are alternatives


Hi Bill

That's interesting - is this a Mousa one? And if not, whose is it? I had looked on Mousa models website previously and seen that the only MR one there was 8' wheelbase, not 10'....?

All the best

Neil

billbedford
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby billbedford » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:54 am

They are new, and not yet on the web site. This one is a 9' LMS, others are in various stages of development.

The plan is to have the as plug & play fitting to RTR, though the is also a bolster to be fitted on kit coach floors. They are designed for both pin pins and ballrace bearings which will be offer once I get new axles made.

If you are interested let me know and I try and get some MR ones made for S4N.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:17 pm

billbedford wrote:They are new, and not yet on the web site. This one is a 9' LMS, others are in various stages of development.
The plan is to have the as plug & play fitting to RTR, though the is also a bolster to be fitted on kit coach floors. They are designed for both pin pins and ballrace bearings which will be offer once I get new axles made.
If you are interested let me know and I try and get some MR ones made for S4N.


Thanks Bill - yes I do plan on getting to S4N (my first one!) and assuming a similar price to those already on your website I would be interested in trying a pair if you were able to furnish some Clayton 10' bogies...

I put in an order last night from Eileens for the brass bogie subframes and secondary springing units by some bloke called Bill Bedford, and will be putting in an order for the Dave B version in the post later - so a full scale trial is in the offing! (Gonna have to buy some more Ratio kits to be able to do a proper comparison methinks!)

All the best

Neil

davebradwell
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby davebradwell » Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:19 pm

Ah, Neil, I was hoping you wouldn't place an order!

There is just one 10ft bogie left but it will be the last of its type and any future bogies will be to a new style based on the 8ft 6in which will appear soon. No good if you want something typical or more stock.

I'll take a coach to S4N and we can poke it about and discuss response, if you like. Chris Pendlenton himself should be around - he who published his bogie design back in MRJ 30.

DaveB

billbedford
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby billbedford » Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:30 pm

Neil Smith wrote:
billbedford wrote:They are new, and not yet on the web site. This one is a 9' LMS, others are in various stages of development.
The plan is to have the as plug & play fitting to RTR, though the is also a bolster to be fitted on kit coach floors. They are designed for both pin pins and ballrace bearings which will be offer once I get new axles made.
If you are interested let me know and I try and get some MR ones made for S4N.


Thanks Bill - yes I do plan on getting to S4N (my first one!) and assuming a similar price to those already on your website I would be interested in trying a pair if you were able to furnish some Clayton 10' bogies...


I've just looked through some MR bogie drawings and found that I have one for a 10' wheelbase which is dated 1916. It is obvious from the drawing that there were 4 different types altogether. I suspect that the differences relate to the queen posts and truss rods with updates to the bolster springing adding to the overall number of variations.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:07 pm

davebradwell wrote:Ah, Neil, I was hoping you wouldn't place an order!

There is just one 10ft bogie left but it will be the last of its type and any future bogies will be to a new style based on the 8ft 6in which will appear soon. No good if you want something typical or more stock.

I'll take a coach to S4N and we can poke it about and discuss response, if you like. Chris Pendlenton himself should be around - he who published his bogie design back in MRJ 30.

DaveB


Oops! I posted it this afternoon. Never mind.. I do plan to be at Wakefield on the Sunday and will come and have a chat and a demo would be most welcome, thank you. I am not a fast worker so will do well to get even one set of bogies together by the end of the month let alone two, so no rush...

All the best

Neil

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:55 pm

billbedford wrote:I've just looked through some MR bogie drawings and found that I have one for a 10' wheelbase which is dated 1916. It is obvious from the drawing that there were 4 different types altogether. I suspect that the differences relate to the queen posts and truss rods with updates to the bolster springing adding to the overall number of variations.


Thank you for looking. That sounds like it might be a decade and more too recent? Maybe a Bain bogie for his pre-war carriages?
I have had a look through Lacy & Dow again and sadly there are no relevant bogie drawings in there, and I suspect the photo on p103 of a Clayton 4 wheel bogie is the 8' type that appear in the drawings of carriages predating the 1896 Clerestory rebuilding programme when the 10' wheelbase became standard for the 4 wheel bogies. This is in any case a 3/4 view so whilst helpful for the detail of the end as well as the side it can't be used to scale anything off it easily.

As per my comment to Dave B earlier I am not in a rush, I will have the subframes arriving from Eileen's soon which will keep me busy for a while!

All the best

Neil

davebradwell
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby davebradwell » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:35 pm

Neil, for complete coverage, are you aware of the secondary springs described by Chris P in MRJ 200 and fitted to some Bachmann coaches? You may be able to fit similar to the Ratio bogies which would save work.

DaveB

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:00 pm

davebradwell wrote:Neil, for complete coverage, are you aware of the secondary springs described by Chris P in MRJ 200 and fitted to some Bachmann coaches? You may be able to fit similar to the Ratio bogies which would save work.

DaveB


Thanks Dave no I wasn't aware of that.

TBH the Ratio bogies are pretty flimsy bits of plastic mouldings that from reading elsewhere are not exactly robust and I would fear are also not that easy to get square and flat etc. Even in the 00 world the strong advice is to use them as cosmetics around a brass sub-bogie.

That said this is an interesting new avenue to explore.

All the best

Neil

billbedford
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby billbedford » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:41 pm

If I've read the drawing I have correctly, the original Midland bogies were not exactly robust. The drawing shows a channel solebar instead of the angle on the original builds.

The is a photo of a carriage fitted with these bogies on page 273 of Lacey and Dow. It's interesting because all the underframe details are picked out in a pale colour.
Bill Bedford
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Hardwicke
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Hardwicke » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:07 pm

Next time I'm over at Swanwick Junction, do you want me to check the carriages there? Clayton and Bain
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:02 pm

Hardwicke wrote:Next time I'm over at Swanwick Junction, do you want me to check the carriages there? Clayton and Bain


Well if you were, and could get some decent photos of the underframes in particular, it would allow this thread to continue to build up a definitive picture. The Claytons are the ones I am most interested in, given that it was his coaches that Ratio have modelled. I have had a look online, and drawn a blank. The MRC itself does not appear to have a listing of each item of rolling stock they have unlike some heritage lines while the vintage carriage survey only has limited photos, and mostly pointing at the bodies - record shots of their condition rather than allowing a modeller to glean anything useful. None of the clerestory coaches at Butterley are in a great condition and are currently missing fittings like commode handles (another of my conundrums - so far I have not found a drawing of one of these... I am awaiting a parcel from Eileens which includes a handle folding jig which I will attempt to modify but I fear that putting a right angled bend in a wire will not quite look right...). The details of the V hangers, where the gas tanks went in relation, etc, are all currently in the land of supposition rather than clarity!

So thank you - yes if you are over there that would be helpful!

All the best

Neil

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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:26 pm

billbedford wrote:If I've read the drawing I have correctly, the original Midland bogies were not exactly robust. The drawing shows a channel solebar instead of the angle on the original builds.

The is a photo of a carriage fitted with these bogies on page 273 of Lacey and Dow. It's interesting because all the underframe details are picked out in a pale colour.


That must be in Volume 2 (which I don't have, yet). But it is noteable that on, say pages 114 and 115 in Volume 1 there are some 6, 8 and 12 wheel carriages (the 8 wheelers having the earlier 8' not 10' Clayton bogie) with the underframe painted in a pale colour possibly a light grey. What is interesting is that all are posed on the same section of track in front of clearly the same two trees, and with the track inlaid in some sort of hard surface, and exactly the same location appears in many previous photos; this was clearly the spot for photography of carriages presumably just outside the works at Derby.

However, looking at the final chapter (the one pertinent to the originals of the Ratio carriages) a markedly different location is used for the posed carriage portraits. The rails are now exposed not inlaid, and the two trees, with or without leaves, are no longer in the background. Plus - frustratingly for this thread, the carriages are now painted ready for the road, as it were, not in some sort of "photographic grey" or equivalent for the underframe.

I wonder why the change, and then from what you say Bill, the change back?! Bit off topic but I have checked three times through Vol 1 and the more you look the more apparent this anomaly becomes!

Those earlier photos with the light underframes had been my only pointer to V hanger arrangements etc that I was looking at when earlier posts were made in this thread. I am now thinking a copy of Volume 2 needs to be added to the collection...!

All the best

Neil

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Hardwicke
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Hardwicke » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:24 pm

Neil Smith wrote:
Hardwicke wrote:Next time I'm over at Swanwick Junction, do you want me to check the carriages there? Clayton and Bain


Well if you were, and could get some decent photos of the underframes in particular, it would allow this thread to continue to build up a definitive picture. The Claytons are the ones I am most interested in, given that it was his coaches that Ratio have modelled. .... None of the clerestory coaches at Butterley are in a great condition and are currently missing fittings like commode handles (another of my conundrums - so far I have not found a drawing of one of these... The details of the V hangers, where the gas tanks went in relation, etc, are all currently in the land of supposition rather than clarity!

So thank you - yes if you are over there that would be helpful!

All the best

Neil

The Royal Saloon might be a starting point then. The Carriage Shed has 2 LMS coaches inside but there are underframes and some carriages inside the Kirtley museum (main shed ex Rigley's wagon works).
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

billbedford
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby billbedford » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:27 pm

According to the VCT all the surviving MR clerestory bogie coaches have Bain 8' bogies.
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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:51 am

Hardwicke wrote:The Royal Saloon might be a starting point then. The Carriage Shed has 2 LMS coaches inside but there are underframes and some carriages inside the Kirtley museum (main shed ex Rigley's wagon works).


It's such a shame their website doesn't have a proper stock list! Anything gleaned could be helpful not just to me but other readers of this thread, so thank you.

The Royal Saloon and the 54' Clerestory Brake Composite No 2944 (both later carriages) may provide helpful pointers?


billbedford wrote:According to the VCT all the surviving MR clerestory bogie coaches have Bain 8' bogies.


Ah thanks Bill! Does this prove your observation about the apparent frailty of the earlier bogies?!

Thank you both!

All the best

Neil

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Hardwicke
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:17 pm

I've asked the Midland HC&W group
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:19 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I've asked the Midland HC&W group


Great, many thanks!

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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:34 pm

They have some 9' bogies
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:28 pm

Hardwicke wrote:They have some 9' bogies

OK that was not what is expecting! This gets more and more confusing!

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Hardwicke
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Hardwicke » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:45 pm

My car is in for a check up (after I was really pleased and changed the bulbs in the main beam myself) so it might be a few days before I get over there. Also the virus might affect access.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Neil Smith
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:36 pm

In the current climate please look after yourself first and foremost. Whether I add some bits of fiddly wire to some moulded plastic is low down on the overall priority list...!

But thank you for your ongoing interest and help.

All the best

Neil

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Hardwicke
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Re: Ratio Midland Carriage bogies

Postby Hardwicke » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:51 am

Update on access...
"The Midland Railway – Butterley have taken the decision to close to the public. We are planning to remain closed until the end of April, but will continue to monitor the situation and will offer updates on our website and through social media.

We ask all our supporters to monitor our website for any further information.

We look forward to welcoming you again soon to the Midland Railway - Butterley"
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".


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