GNRi Reborn

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
DerryRoad

GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:46 pm

After an absence from modelling of almost 30 years I have returned to my love of Irish railways. Having previously worked in 00 gauge I wanted to return to the hobby with a certain degree of accuracy this time. Its not important that I start laying yards of 5'3" track work but instead, I want to use my membership to ease myself in and learn as much as I can. My priority at the moment is to start building a few GNRi wagons. I have the drawings and lots of photographs, I just need to increase my knowledge and get started.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:18 am

Welcome.

As a relatively recent member I'd say you have definitely come to the right place - the help and advice I have received has been fantastic. Just get going and ask as required ... everyone is very friendly and will help where they think they can.

Tim
Tim Lee

Terry Bendall
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:23 am

If you can get to Scaleforum the Irish Railway Record Society will be present and will be able to offer help and advice. The stand will include a demonstration of working with 21mm track.

Terry Bendall

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:00 am

Terry Bendall wrote:If you can get to Scaleforum the Irish Railway Record Society will be present and will be able to offer help and advice. The stand will include a demonstration of working with 21mm track.

Terry Bendall


Terry, it won't be possible to attend this years Scaleforum, I'm back at work after a 6-week holiday!
The track is certainly of interest to me and I'm keen to see examples of the various methods available to me.
Its always nice to know that there are fellow modellers willing to help, thanks.

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John Bateson
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby John Bateson » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:30 pm

Just to whet your interest - An Irish PP class was described in Scalefour News 167 Page 18.
'Slieve Gullion', "S" class also featured on the back page.
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:40 pm

John, you're a gem. That issued featured some wonderful pictures of GNRi PP and S class, mouth-watering. I have many photographs of the engines working through the Derry Road. I only hope I am able to discuss the building of these with the respectful owners in due course. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

philip-griffiths
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby philip-griffiths » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:23 pm

Hello Tony,

On which side of the Irish Sea are you based? There is a growing band of modellers in the Ulster MRC (Belfast based) who are kit-bashing / making Irish wagons.

regards.

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:39 pm

Hi Philip,
I am in Omagh and always willing to listen to like-minded folk with experience to pass on. I'd like to see some of their works!

Terry Bendall
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:43 am

DerryRoad wrote: it won't be possible to attend this years Scaleforum, I'm back at work after a 6-week holiday!


A pity but I will ask the photographers to take some pictures of what is on the IRRS stand which will be better than nothing. Track of course has to be hand built and the Sores sells the relevant gauges. The process is of course just the same as modelling standard gauge track.

Terry Bendall

philip-griffiths
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby philip-griffiths » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:52 am

Tony

There is a Chris Aspinwall who i think lives in Tyrone who used to be a member of the Society and was very active in the HMRS when i was a member who modelled P4 21mm. May be a useful contact.

Ill tell my fellow society member in the UMRC that you are interested in 21mm. He has Adavoyle Mk1.

Regards.

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:27 am

Philip, thats welcome news. I appreciate you taking the time to dig this info out. Would be nice to meet up with this chap.

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:54 am

Have been busy recently outdoors with little or no time to post. Took delivery of a 10x6 quality garden shed which I bought of a reputable manufacturer. Fully studded sides clad with 19mm T&G sheeting. Solid base on joists and PV coated aluminium roof over breathable felt. Once installed I filled the stud voids with 100mm rock wool insulation and sheeted it with 12mm sterling board throughout. The ceiling will be completed this weekend with T&G redwood sheeting. It has been described by one modeller as 'bomb proof'.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:36 am

DerryRoad wrote: Once installed I filled the stud voids with 100mm rock wool insulation and sheeted it with 12mm sterling board throughout.

I may be teaching my grandmother here .... but did you put a vapour check between the insulation and the sterling board?

Tim
Tim Lee

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:07 am

Tim, do you mean directly behind the sterling board? I didn't if thats what you mean. The sterling board is fixed over the studs directly, though I have only tacked it in position with screws to hold it there. What are you suggesting? Normally, the vapour check should go on directly behind the external T&G boarding but it wasn't.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:30 am

Sheds don't normally have a vapour check as they are supplied uninsulated. What you are talking about is the Breather membrane or building wrap which is placed behind the outside cladding to protect from water ingress whilst allowing the wall within to 'breathe'. If the cladding is good this is not strictly necessary and wouldn't normally come on a shed ... without it you do have better breathablity of the wall construction so long as the cladding doesn't leak.

I would recommend you fit a vapour check behind the stirling board if you plan to heat the interior. The issue is that if you have a source of heating in the shed in cold weather, then the internal air will hold more moisture (humidity) than the cold air could (from the human occupants over time). If there is no vapour check then the warmer humid air will pass through the rockwool ... as the temperature cools due to the insulation, the dew point will be reached and the moisture will condense (most likely within the insulation itself). This means that the insulation will be damp, and in cold weather there is little opportunity for the dampness to dissipate. Over time this has the potential to cause staining, mould growth and if extreme then over time rot in the timbers. I have inspected a number of buildings where whole walls have needed to be rebuilt because of this.

You also need to make sure you have a grille of some sort to the outside to ensure that once insulated and vapour checked you have some ventilation, as it is air changes per hour which keep humidity levels low. Generally I position these away from any prevailing wind ... they should be nothing more than a trickle vent or else the point of the insulation will be negated.
Tim Lee

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 am

Lee, I appreciate your advice and concerns. You've certainly got me thinking, and worried. This is the second structure I have bought from this supplier. The first is a nice summer house bought 22years ago. It had no vapour barrier either but the studs were insulated with polystyrene and clad on the inside with melamine boards. The shed is bone dry with no signs of mould or damp.

The new shed is built with the same T&G treated boards on 3" studs. The roof has a breathable membrance and PVC coated tin to top. I was always concerned about the amount of insulation I was using though I never had any plans to heat the inside of the shed. I also planned on fitting vents to the front and rear gable of the shed to allow some airflow.

Is there anything else I should so?

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Le Corbusier
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:29 am

Everything depends really on how you choose to use the building .... ie occupancy/heating/usage.

The melamine will to some extent act as a vapour check as it is impermeable ... so it is only the jointing that is a problem and usually these would be located across a stud or noggin again limiting permeability. Polystyrene is also good in this instance as it too is impermeable so moisture build up is limited. If the outside face is well ventilated then unless the interior is used for high humidity activities such as cooking for extended periods of time in the winter you are unlikely to have much of a problem.

If you have a relatively small space, well insulated and heated, in which 2 or three people are likely to spend extended periods of time when the weather is cold .... and coupled to this you have a vapour permeable construction like stirlingboard and a permeable insulation material like rockwool or fibreglass fleece (not to mention wool or blown paper granules) then this could be a recipe for problems. If it were me I would remove the stirlingboard and staple across the studs a layer of polythene and then screw the board back on again - job done. Foil backed plasterboard or foil faced insulation taped together does much the same thing. If you are not going to heat the shed or indeed use it in cold weather ... then why insulate?

Tim
Tim Lee

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:58 am

Tim,

The shed was bought to set up a small railway layout and scratchbuild wagons in. I would imagine that I would be in it for a couple of hours at a time, not every day. There will be no heating in the shed of any kind and there will be one fluorescent light fitting. The door of the shed is certainly not air-tight so I imagine there will be some airflow, even when closed. There will be a circular vent at either gable end at ceiling level to maintain an airflow at all times. The reason I insulated it was to reduce some of the cold penetrating the sides in winter.

Incidently, the shed is built on a row or 9" concrete blocks built on their flat on top of 2 x 2 concrete flags so there are no wet ground conditions to worry about.

Do you think I should still remove my sterling board and fit breathable membrane behind it?
Last edited by DerryRoad on Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:27 am

Sounds a great little hideaway ... I'm jealous :thumb

The choice is yours .... ;) for the usage as you describe you'll most likely be ok - if you want to future proof so you can crank up usage or stick in a stove of sorts when its cold however? :?

I find that sitting still modelling for anything above an hour I need some heating for a good 4 months of the year and I suspect this gets worse as you get older .... of course you could always go for a brisk walk.

You might also find with the layout that a little trace heating on a thermostat to avoid things dropping down to zero might be helpful to prevent movement etc. There are a few threads on here talking about the trials and tribulations that changes in environment can cause on reliability and running etc.

The membrane should you decide to fit should not be breathable ... cheap polythene would be fine. The breathable stuff is the expensive stuff behind the external weatherboarding which stops the rain coming in but allows the moisture to pass through.

Tim
Tim Lee

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:29 pm

Tim,

If it gets so cold that I need heat, I can ask the wife to let me back into the house!
Seriously, I may use a small oil-filled radiator to warm the shed but I don't imagine it will be for more then ten minutes at a time.

DerryRoad

Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby DerryRoad » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm

After some absence from the forum I am signing in to say I'll be experimenting with 21mm track work again.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:45 am

DerryRoad wrote:After some absence from the forum I am signing in to say I'll be experimenting with 21mm track work again.


I recommend you buy from our stores the Irish gauge Mint that I know Jeremy stocks, 'cos I got one by mistake !

Whether or not your track building skills are rusty and you haven't come across Mints before I advise they are an excellent tool to supplement the bog-standard gauges, especially for after build checks and maintenance. The inventor has also posted some instructions on usage somewhere in the last couple of years, if you can find them its helpful too.
ISTR these destructions may be on S7 website.......

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Horsetan
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Re: GNRi Reborn

Postby Horsetan » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:21 am

DerryRoad wrote:After some absence from the forum I am signing in to say I'll be experimenting with 21mm track work again.


How is the experiment going :?:
That would be an ecumenical matter.


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