Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:14 am

I have had this response from Glynn Waite at the Rowsley Association concerning local ballast trains with particular reference to the Bakewell station photo ....

However, the wagon next to the loco with its doors down is intriguing. It could well have conveyed ballast for the men on the track in the photo. Nowadays shunting with the doors down would be prohibited, but moving a wagon short distances in sidings in that condition would probably have been the norm 100+ years ago. Right up to the closure of Rowsley Shed there was a daily area ballast train which dropped off ballast at various locations for fettling the track.


I have asked for further clarification as to a typical ballast train make up.
Tim Lee

hughesp87
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby hughesp87 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:40 pm

Tim,

Apologies if you're already aware of this, but I have just been browsing through the Derbyshire Records Office website to find some information for my new Cromford & High Peak project, and an initial search on "railways" produced the following item:

Ref D504/110/4/2. Plan depicting the area of the Putty Hill Mine, situated next to Monsaĺ Dale railway station.

If it's of interest, it is possible to order a copy through the website. The staff there are very helpful.

All the best with your continuing research.

Geraint
Geraint Hughes
Cromford & High Peak in P4
Danish Railways in P87

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:19 am

hughesp87 wrote:Ref D504/110/4/2. Plan depicting the area of the Putty Hill Mine, situated next to Monsaĺ Dale railway station.

Geraint,

It is most definitely of interest and no I wasn't aware of its existence.

Much appreciate the steer. :thumb

Thanks

Tim
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:43 pm

I have not used blackening fluid on metals before. I understand that typically you would apply the fluid to the metal and then when satisfied neutralise the action by rinsing in water? Is it possible to use the fluid insitu on the layout ... without needing to rinse? I would like to try blackening my nickel silver point rodding wire.
Tim Lee

Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:43 pm

You have to rinse to stop the blackening action, otherwise you will get a powdery finish. I often just use a cotton bud dipped in water to dab over something small. If you dab the area dry straight away I doubt whether the water will cause problems.

Alternatively, use an etch marker pen and rinse as above. Be careful with these fluids though, keep them off your skin; sometimes I use thin neoprene gloves. The really safe option is a permanent marker pen.

Philip

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:31 pm

Philip Hall wrote: gloves. The really safe option is a permanent marker pen.

Philip

Thanks for the advice Philip

I tried the permanent marker first but I have found it is rubbing off revealing the silver beneath. I thought blackening might be more robust. The cotton bud sounds like a workable option though. :thumb
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:03 pm

The permanent marker is often a good base for paint to avoid bright metal showing if paintbhas rubbed off. But, as you say, it too can run off!

The one advantage of an etch marker pen is that it will readily blacken solder and is a precise way of blackening. The downside is the cost, around the £30 mark or even more, depending upon where you buy it (I use eBay and usually buy in threes or fours as I get through about two or more a year). Sometimes with the etch pen I use a baby wipe to neutralise. Waitrose Essential wipes are cheapest and the wettest!

Philip

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:37 pm

Philip Hall wrote:The one advantage of an etch marker pen is that it will readily blacken solder and is a precise way of blackening. The downside is the cost, around the £30 mark or even more, depending upon where you buy it (I use eBay and usually buy in threes or fours as I get through about two or more a year). Sometimes with the etch pen I use a baby wipe to neutralise. Waitrose Essential wipes are cheapest and the wettest!


:thumb :thumb :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:02 am

I am finally returning my thoughts and energy's to building my Craftsman 1f tank. ;) hurrah :!:

This will be my first attempt at CSBs and I have ditched the kits own somewhat crude 00 chassis in favour of a set of Gibson Milled frames.I am intending to use handrail Knobs for the fulcrum points and High Level horn blocks/guides with their etched hangers .... I have the High Level setting out jig for the installation.

As I am still using the traditional extended pointed axels to set up the chassis and because the frames came with the horn guides spaces already cut out - as my first task I am making up the coupling rods .... so in due course I can use these to fix the accurate positions of the horn guides via the blocks. Unfortunately the rods came as single length etches across the three wheels (with a front and back face which need soldering together). Having re-read Will's CSB thread I decided to articulate the rods at the boss rather than on the crank pin as well as splitting them down into pairs.

So far I have fabricated up one set, inserting a core between the two faces of the rods and so far so good.

I have two questions/requests for help/advice which hopefully more experienced bods could advise upon. :thumb

Firstly I note that in Will's thread the articulation of the rods is achieved by use of a Rivet. I would be really grateful to be pointed in the direction of the kind of rivet used, and perhaps a little more explanation on the process of fitting said rivet using the 'kitchen worktop' toolset. I am using the Gibson Crank Pins and want to ensure that the back of the fixing doesn't foul the wheel boss/spokes.

Secondly, by adding the core to the laminated rods to achieve the fork for the articulation, the resultant triple laminate thickness is slightly deeper than the depth of the standard Gibson crank pin hub. I have some of the deeper hubs meant for accommodating the motion, but using the deeper hubs results in a fair bit of spare movement (the rods are only slightly too thick). Any suggestions as to how I might take out some of this slop would be appreciated or will it be fine left as is? ( I am concerned about the rods sliding such that they jamb). I am loathe to file down the rods themselves given the articulation fork is already quite thin .... might spacers work? or should I be thinking about filing down the (longer) hub itself, which process given my toolset could be difficult to keep square :?
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:01 pm

Tim

File down the hub. Put it wide end down on a hard surface, put the rod over it, file off most but not all the excess length so it stands just proud above he rod so the crankpin nut tightens against the hub but leaves the rod free to turn. It's not difficult to ensure it is sufficiently square, absolutely perfect squareness isn't necessary.

Will

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:58 pm

Somewhat belatedly perhaps I have just checked the dims of the coupling rods supplied with the original kit ... should scale at 4mm scale 7'4" (29.34mm) and 7'8" (30.67mm) respectively. The Gibson frames cut outs are accurate to these dims, but sadly the rods aren't - measuring 28.7mm and 30.3mm respectively (the scale drawing which came with the kit correctly dims the rods). :?

I have decided to make up a new set of rods to the correct dims from a universal set ... looking at what's available I have plumped for the Lanarkshire models offering, which to my eye look to be the best and also come with the option to articulate the rods correctly including rivets. 8-)

coupling rods.jpg
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:47 am

So ... I am now in possession of the Lanarkshire universal coupling rod etch.

To laminate up the rods I decided to set up a wheel centre jig in my laminate cutting board using 1.5mm wire as substitute crank pins and 0.7mm wire for the articulation point. Scribing an accurate centre line I then used my vernier callipers to set up the accurate centre points to two digital places. I then lightly centre punched the points and used 0.7mm drill to pilot drill followed by 1.5mm for the crank pins. I opened all the etched holes up carefully using a suitable broach to a tight tolerance fit over the wires.

Once I had this in place I used the jig to cut and fettle the extended rods to the right size. Having set up the core and the top layer of laminates, first off I sweated on the overlay bosses using a trusty cocktail stick to match the holes. Once these were in place I proceeded to tin the the overlays and using the jig sweated them accurately in place along the length but avoiding the boss ends at this point to ensure they were not soldered accidentally to the wire pieces. Following this locating exercise I could then removed the separate pieces from the jig and ran solder along the length of the laminate edges. The same process was carried out on the reverse side, followed by cleaning up using files and a scratch brush.

The final process was to squeeze in the articulation rivet supplied with the rod etch.

I am quite pleased with this as a first attempt at such fabrication. They have cleaned up pretty well, the articulation works fine and checking the centres they are spot on.

For anyone interested .. attached are a set of sequence photos showing the setting up of the second set of rods with the completed first set above to show the end result.
1F-T_Coupling Rods - 3.jpg

1F-T_Coupling Rods - 2.jpg

1F-T_Coupling Rods - 1.jpg
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:44 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:...To laminate up the rods I decided to set up a wheel centre jig in my laminate cutting board using 1.5mm wire as substitute crank pins and 0.7mm wire for the articulation point. Scribing an accurate centre line I then used my vernier callipers to set up the accurate centre points to two digital places.


Very impressive Tim, setting up your jig was a good approach. Given the 7'4" - 7'8" wheelbase I can see why you made the attempt at 2 place of decimals but it was perhaps a bit OTT as the key element will be that the rods fit the axle centres in the chassis (set from the rods), not the absolute accuracy of the rods. As you are using the Gibson milled frames, using one edge of the wheel cut outs in a chassis side to mark out the wheel centres for the rods would do and make sure your rods match the sides. Trying to marking out such a jig to 2 places of decimal is to follow a false god called Spurious Accuracy, and if you listen carefully you will hear the Great Carpet God planning his revenge below the work bench.

That said I'm sure that the resulting rods will do very well, I haven't seen the Lanarkshire Models product before but it looks the job. It is probably worth checking they are actauly the same size when you finished, by putting them both on your jig at the same time. You'll need to pull the small pin for knuckle pivot but its an interesting check. If they really are the same they will both slip on easily, but if you find the second one is a bit tight, I'm afraid some of your second place decimals will have already gone walk about. Fortunately it doesn't matter as your can accommodate quite significant errors in rod length so long as the horn blocks are set up from the rods, and you consistently use the same rod on the same side of the model which you should as they are handed and the wheelbase is asymmetrical.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:09 pm

Hi Will :D :D :D :D :D

I have to admit the 2 decimal places was me being a bit cheeky .... As I am aware of your kitchen table top mantra - to which I am a fully signed up subscriber :thumb

Whisper it quietly but my measurements were 0.02 out as I couldn't get the wheel on the callipers to adjust delicately enough :mrgreen:

The Gibson frames however are surprisingly accurate .... However hopefully by using the rods and the tolerance within the hornblock guides I will manage to get things running ok .... fingers crossed and touch wood ;)

At the moment, I am thinking of marking out the CSB fulcrum points and fitting. Then soldering up the frames. Then dry fitting the hornblocks and guides attached to a 'rigid' CSB to set the height and then using the coupling rods and my pointed axels to fix the centres .... then solder in place.

Open to other suggestions though :)
Tim Lee

Dave Franks
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Dave Franks » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:42 pm

Hi Tim, nice work on the coupling rods, would now be a good time to announce the next coupling rods????

You guessed it - universal coupling rods for inside cylinder locos and these will be a lot slimmer than the heavy ones you've used, sorry about that.

Dave Franks
Hiding in the bushes.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:46 pm

Ah ha!

I can feel another order coming on!

Presumably the corks will be in all the bosses so I won't have to drill my own on the leading ones this time? :thumb

When will they be available?
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:56 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:....At the moment, I am thinking of marking out the CSB fulcrum points and fitting. Then soldering up the frames. Then dry fitting the hornblocks and guides attached to a 'rigid' CSB to set the height and then using the coupling rods and my pointed axels to fix the centres .... then solder in place.


That sounds about right. The fact that the Gibson frames have hornblock cutouts rather than axle holes at the right centres makes things more difficult, but the Highlevel CSB fulcrum setting jig does have the where-with-all to set the fulcrums from the cutouts whch saves one from the manual marking out process I went through on the J10. It's not two places of decimals accurate but probably as good as most of use would achieve trying to mark it out by hand.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 am

Hi Tim, :)

Was pleased to see that you had used my old mate Dave Franks coupling rods. All his stuff is to a good quality and he is to be encouraged in the development of his range. He is one of the best S4 modellers I know despite being known for all his EM locomotives and layout. He and Fiona have done as much as anyone to encourage the building of finescale models North and South of the Border. Most of his S4 models have been built for other modellers, but are to a very high spec.

Hiding in the bushes.


Could point out the bushes if you like. :D It's the one third along from mine if you are interested, you'll find us both on Fig Leaf Avenue. :o :shock:

(I do like :o :shock: )

I know we have been talking behind the scenes about my own jig, you'll find it too is capable of dealing with the same problem - still hoping to bring it down to Scalefourum for you to have a look at. We will have our operator's schedule published before we come down to the show so I should be able to let you know when I am not operating on Burntisland so we can meet up and have a chat.

Allan :)

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Dave Franks » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:03 am

I'm definately hiding in the bushes now, thanks for the glowing report Allan. :oops:

See you soon,

Dave Franks.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:01 pm

On a completely separate subject, I have some sea moss to make up some bushes and tees with scatter.

Can anyone give any advice on soaking to address the brittleness .... I have read somewhere about soaking in water with a dilute mix of glycerine added? But a recipe would be much appreciated.

Thanks :thumb
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:37 pm

Hi Tim,
Adding Glycerine should help, but I have never used it on sea moss. It is what they use on reindeer moss to keep its springyness. The alternative to glycerine would be to spray it with at least a couple of layers of white glue. You can use a diffuser, which makes it more difficult to damage as the glue forms a tough outer layer. The bigger pieces of sea moss also allow for a wire to go up within the pieces and again this can be used for planting etc. If you paint the bark after the glue has set you can produce silver birch etc. without any problem. I have photos somewhere of the ones I have made.

Sorry I do not have a specific recipe
Allan

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:09 am

As a final check before I drill my CSB fulcrum points on the Johnson 1F 0-6-0 T frames ... here is my proposed spread sheet calculation. I have set the outer distances at 12mm to avoid the brake hanger points whilst still giving a reasonable amount of meat to accommodate them.

Are there any reasons why this set up would not be satisfactory :?:

CSB Plot.jpg
CSB Plot.jpg (168.43 KiB) Viewed 543 times
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:32 pm

Tim

That's certainly a workable solution. It's not clear which way the brake hanger positions restrict the outer lengths. The chassis gradient (the amount the chassis deviates from sitting perfectly flat) is within acceptable limits (all asymmetric chassis will have a little gradient), but could be improved by increasing the "a" dimension by 0.5 mm if that doesn't run into your brake hanger. Just remember there is no single "right" answer and quite a few acceptable solutions.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:48 pm

Will L wrote:Tim

....but could be improved by increasing the "a" dimension by 0.5 mm if that doesn't run into your brake hanger.


Thanks Will .... 0.5 added to the 'a' dimension ... no problem with the hangers, so I may as well get it as right as possible :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:03 am

A question which hopefully someone will be able to help with.

I am currently considering one of the GW riveting tools. What is the difference (benefits/drawbacks) between his 'standard rivet tool' and his 'universal rivet tool'. For simple 4mm scratch building is there any need to move beyond the standard tool ?

DSCN0807.jpg.7e940b748e013c69f95e7e4d59931ed5.jpg


GW-Models-Universal-Rivet-Press-tool.jpg
GW-Models-Universal-Rivet-Press-tool.jpg (27.81 KiB) Viewed 334 times
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