Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:35 am

jon price wrote:Very nice paint job. If the rest of the layout is as good as this it will be magnificent


ThanksJon.

I wondered how you got on in the end with the Craftsman 1FT? Any observations/hints/tips gratefully accepted.

Regards

Tim
Tim Lee

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John Bateson
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby John Bateson » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:57 am

Tim,
I believe that Protocab are introducing new cylindrical batteries early in the New Year - do you intend to fit the battery in the boiler?
John
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:13 am

John Bateson wrote:Tim,
I believe that Protocab are introducing new cylindrical batteries early in the New Year - do you intend to fit the battery in the boiler?
John


On the Barney I have mapped out a set up which fits completely within the tender, with the charging jack point hopefully concealed by a removable part of the coal load. I am just musing as to whether I will have a permanent wire link between tender and engine or whether to make it detachable.

However on the projected 1FT build things will need to be different. I can fit the jack point in the rear coal bunker which removes it from the equation. I am currently thinking of running the motor up vertically into the firebox. Then I believe the smaller flat battery will fit across the top front of the tanks and boiler (Yet to fully investigate this) - its a case of whether it will clash with the motor or not. The control unit should then fit underneath. The boiler and attendant side tanks give a reasonable volume - If this doesn't work I will most definitely be looking at the round battery option.

Do you happen to know if the round battery will be compatible with 12v motors? I vaguely remember some discussion about this but not what it was.

Tim
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Alan Turner
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:02 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:I believe the wharf was soley used for the output of the mine that can be seen on some photographs (in fact the photo in your first posting). It is behind the station and up the hill.

This means empties in and loaded out. It will have been served by down trains.

Regards

Alan


I was under the impression from Bill Hudson's section on Monsal Dale that Coal Deliveries were made for the Mill? He mentions that from the construction of the engineering workshop installed in the late 19th century and therefore greater use of the steam engine he approximated an increase from 4-5 wagons per week to 27-28 weekly by 1922.

Is there any reason to believe that this is incorrect? If correct then I wondered if regular daily deliveries would all have come on the down line? and whether they would have been dedicated trains brought in by tank or part of a larger train (same question for the empties)?


Bill Hudson does say that but I find it incredible that such a way side goods facility could handle such a through put of coal as well as the out put from the mine. If we allow 7 days a week (which I don't consider would be the case) 28 wagons a week is 4 a day. At the very least that would take 4 men to deal with together with the associated carters, wagons and horses. If it is only 6 days a week (more realistic) then that is 5 wagons a day.

I simply don't see the infrastructure at Monsal Dale to accommodate such activity.

regards

Alan

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:37 pm

Alan Turner wrote:Bill Hudson does say that but I find it incredible that such a way side goods facility could handle such a through put of coal as well as the out put from the mine. If we allow 7 days a week (which I don't consider would be the case) 28 wagons a week is 4 a day. At the very least that would take 4 men to deal with together with the associated carters, wagons and horses. If it is only 6 days a week (more realistic) then that is 5 wagons a day.

I simply don't see the infrastructure at Monsal Dale to accommodate such activity.

regards

Alan

I see what you mean.

It would be interesting to find out where Bill's figures came from. Particularly as he also mentions the problems involved with the ford at the bottom of the hill.

The fact that the mine enquired about the possibility of having a second 'private' siding constructed in distinction to the 'public' wharf does suggest that at times things got pretty congested. From the indications on the various photos it appears that the wharf itself was extended from what initially appeared to accommodate up to 5 wagons to a length that suggest 7 or 8 could be accommodated.

Any thoughts/suggestion as to possible avenues to research this?

Tim
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:25 pm

One idea to alleviate the problem might be to use the same wagons for outbound and inbound traffic - but before common user wagon pools, that would be (theoretically) forbidden.

Of course, WTTs only tell us what was normally expected to run. Maybe there were extra workings on occasions, or other regular through goods trains that might be arranged to call at the station if circumstances required?

Wagons might be dropped off at Millers Dale instead, if there was insufficient room at Monsal Dale.

We can probably only speculate about these things, as there is unlikely to be documented evidence - and the people who ran things in those days are all long gone.

There might be something in the Appendix to the WTT?

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Highpeak » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:18 pm

I'm not sure how much deep you want to delve into the spar mine (sorry!) but some digging around turned up a bit of information on the Peak District Mining Historical Society website (www.pdmhs.com). The mine was referred to as the Putwell Hill or Putty Hill mine and there's a bit of information on the internet if you google that term. The papers published focus mostly on the geology or the mine and don't really mention the railway very much.

In its best days it looks like the output from the mine was about 800 tons a year. One of the papers on the PDMHS site notes that in its declining years (the mine was worked until 1931, so the declining years are probably after your period) a lot of the output was taken to Long Rake in Youlgreave for processing.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Noel » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:40 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:One idea to alleviate the problem might be to use the same wagons for outbound and inbound traffic - but before common user wagon pools, that would be (theoretically) forbidden.


Most certainly it would. The mine may have had its own PO wagons, possibly on hire purchase, or, being a new enterprise, it may have hired some from one of the many wagon hire firms. How many wagons would depend on where the traffic was going and the turnround time involved. If hired, the wagons might be in the hirer's livery, or might be left in the hire company's livery, or even that of a previous hirer.

Armchair Modeller wrote:Of course, WTTs only tell us what was normally expected to run. Maybe there were extra workings on occasions, or other regular through goods trains that might be arranged to call at the station if circumstances required?


WTTs would normally include RR [runs as required] paths for trains which only ran if there was traffic for them, or Q paths for possible additional trains, or ones where the time might vary according to external circumstances, such as the tide. Otherwise extra workings on a busy main line were not that easy to arrange, and would be for something important, not a few wagons of stone or coal. Through goods trains would not be stopped specially, as there would be no allowance in their paths for the delay involved. Causing any delays to more important trains would have serious repercussions for the offender...

Armchair Modeller wrote:Wagons might be dropped off at Millers Dale instead, if there was insufficient room at Monsal Dale.


I would expect that wagons would be delivered to the station called for by the contract between the mill and the Midland. The mill would have arrangements in place for cartage from Monsal Dale; having to carry from Millers Dale would require significantly greater costs for the extra carts required, given the longer distance involved, and a claim for compensation.

The raised part of the loading bank is long enough to take several wagons, so that, once the mine is in operation, it is difficult to reconcile the traffic for that, plus the increasing traffic for the mill, with the facilities available. As I implied earlier, I think it quite possible that the mill's coal traffic transferred to Millers Dale once adequate lorries became available. However, as you observe, evidence one way or the other is unlikely to be available.
Regards
Noel

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:08 pm

Highpeak wrote:One of the papers on the PDMHS site notes that in its declining years (the mine was worked until 1931, so the declining years are probably after your period) a lot of the output was taken to Long Rake in Youlgreave for processing.


That's quite a hike from Monsal Dale - presumably by road though rather than rail? The nearest rail access to Long Rake would probably have been Parsley Hay or Friden on the C&HP line (or further away, Rowsley on the Midland). It would still have required road transport for at least a few miles of the journey.

800 tons a year at its peak is really quite small though - it wouldn't be many rail wagons a day. More like two wagons a week at most?

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Highpeak » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:06 pm

I would imagine in the mine's final years (say, post WW1?) output that needed further processing at Long Rake would have gone by lorry. It is quite a long way to Youlgreave.

This web page http://www.andrewsgen.com/photo/derbysh ... ridges.htm has some pictures of the bridges down in the valley.

There's an interesting note on the page relating to the bridge at Upperdale being in poor repair by 1914 with a suggestion that it be replaced by a cart bridge. At the time it seems that idea went nowhere and the bridge was repaired as it stood. The footnotes give some details of the development of bridges. It suggests that until around 1920, and certainly in the period for the model, any coal coming from the station to the mill would have crossed the river by the ford.

As the volume of coal required by the mill increased it would appear that the pressure on the authorities to improve the bridge became sufficient to cause it to happen. It's still hard to imagine that much coal passing through such a small station. Still, "Derbyshire born, Derbyshire bred, strong i'th arm an' wik i'th yed." Which actually means "sharp or quick in the head", not weak!
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby jon price » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:52 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
jon price wrote:
I wondered how you got on in the end with the Craftsman 1FT? Any observations/hints/tips gratefully accepted.


Tim


well i wouldn't say I was necessarily the best source of wisdom, but after making up the 00 chassis as supplied because the tabbed construction guaranteed a square effort, and adding plastic sides to space to P4 I think this was false insurance, and I wouldnt recommend it. If I started again (and s far as thechassis goes I may well) I think I would go for the Brassmaster Bachmann conversion chassis as a starting point
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:22 pm

Though considerably less learned ... my fourpeneth worth at the moment would be....

Based upon Bill Hudson's research and the evidence of the 1911 official MR photo

1. The quarry shipped out in bulk when sufficient stone had been prepared ... this is based solely upon the fact that the official photo clearly shows four wagons being loaded with stone .... perhaps fortnightly or monthly by arrangement?. Hudson states that the wagons in the station were being loaded into 3(?) Butterley wagons for use in the company's iron works at Codnor Park. Maybe the fourth wagon is a coal wagon docked at the lower end of the wharf?
Platform from west-1 copy.jpeg
Perhaps the quarry prepared consignments to order?

2. In 1902 I don't think road transport would have been up to delivering the Coal and Coke for the mill, and the siding was specifically put in at the request of the Mill for this purpose. Furthermore, Bill Hudson is also quite specific about the quantities. I have found that in the appendix of his study he actually gives figures for 1902 (rather fortuitous methinks). Here he states that Coal and Coke deliveries amounted to only 1337 tons - i.e. 4 to 5 wagons weekly. I am therefore inclined to assume that the coal did indeed come in via the wharf, and could have been unloaded from the lowered portion of the wharf which could certainly accommodate 2 wagons comfortably.

This would make sense of the wharf design ... part specifically to allow projected coal supplies to be easily loaded onto carts and part to ease loading of goods etc for shipping out?

3. There also appears to have £30 of receipts for merchandise dealt with within the year?

I assume that all of this 'small beer' could have been comfortably dealt with on the down stopping freight mentioned earlier (would empties have been taken away at the same time?). I assume that the spar would have been taken up to Millars Dale to be sorted and sent on as required.

Tim
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:32 pm

jon price wrote:well i wouldn't say I was necessarily the best source of wisdom, but after making up the 00 chassis as supplied because the tabbed construction guaranteed a square effort, and adding plastic sides to space to P4 I think this was false insurance, and I wouldnt recommend it. If I started again (and s far as thechassis goes I may well) I think I would go for the Brassmaster Bachmann conversion chassis as a starting point


Yes, I think I am coming to that conclusion as well. I did think about simply using the frames and break gear with new spacers .... but the frames are rather crude ...without any springs and also lacking the ashpan etc ... so a lot of work would be required to bring them up to scratch.

Tim
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Noel
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Noel » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:47 am

The 1911 photograph shows the original, shorter, wharf, all on one level. It is possible [even though one wagon is only a three plank open] that all of the visible wagons are carrying coal. Which rather begs the question of when the wharf was extended and the raised section added.

Le Corbusier wrote:I assume that all of this 'small beer' could have been comfortably dealt with on the down stopping freight mentioned earlier (would empties have been taken away at the same time?). I assume that the spar would have been taken up to Millars Dale to be sorted and sent on as required.


Reasonable assumptions I feel, and any empties would leave on the same train, the only caveat being that some empties might be left for another day if the train was already up to its load limit [which would depend on the type of loco being used] but this would probably not happen often, if at all.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby jon price » Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:32 am

And for complete accuracy, when you come to replicate the coal man's cart it looks to me like it being pulled by a draft mule (offspring of a male donkey and a female horse), or even a large donkey, and not a carthorse
Draft-Mule.jpg
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:33 pm

Noel wrote:The 1911 photograph shows the original, shorter, wharf, all on one level. It is possible [even though one wagon is only a three plank open] that all of the visible wagons are carrying coal. Which rather begs the question of when the wharf was extended and the raised section added.


Noel,

Slightly curious as to why Bill Hudson would be so definite that three were being loaded with Spar ... right down to the calling out of the Butterley (private Owners) wagons etc ... if they are actually a delivery of coal? The loads visible in the first two wagons are certainly white in colour.

I believe that the original wharf had a lower portion towards the station from the beginning. You can make out the different levels and different cart track routes on the 1911 official photo looking back towards the signal box.
Monsal Dale station 1911 Detail.jpg
Monsal Dale station 1911 Detail.jpg (138.97 KiB) Viewed 6770 times
The wharf (again according to Bill Hudson) was extended towards the end of the platform due to a landslip in 1924. From the later photos this would appear to be the lower portion with return distant from the station.

Tim
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:11 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Slightly curious as to why Bill Hudson would be so definite that three were being loaded with Spar ... right down to the calling out of the Butterley (private Owners) wagons etc ... if they are actually a delivery of coal? The loads visible in the first two wagons are certainly white in colour.
Tim


The three wagons at the front seem to be coupled together, whereas the last one most definitely isn't. I agree the load in the first two wagons doesn't appear to be coal. Looking at images of fluorospar on the Web, it is reflective and rather psychedelic in colour, rather than white. That might be purer than the output of your mine though. Would make an interesting load to puzzle the punters at an exhibition!

I don't know what livery Butterley wagons had in 1910, but I don't see much sign of lettering on those three wagons. Maybe they still used small lettering then - or the image just didn't pick it up very well. Maybe there was some note attached to the image that Bill referred to?

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:56 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:The three wagons at the front seem to be coupled together, whereas the last one most definitely isn't. I agree the load in the first two wagons doesn't appear to be coal. Looking at images of fluorospar on the Web, it is reflective and rather psychedelic in colour, rather than white. That might be purer than the output of your mine though. Would make an interesting load to puzzle the punters at an exhibition!


I grew up living for 7 years in Stoney Middleton before moving to Great Longstone ... the Cavendish Mill Quarry is on the edge of the Village and lorries loaded with Raw Fluorspar were a pretty ubiquitous sight. It tends to look pretty white gray before processing when viewed from afar.
fluorspar_raw_material.jpg
fluorspar_raw_material.jpg (41.61 KiB) Viewed 6754 times
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:24 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:I don't know what livery Butterley wagons had in 1910, but I don't see much sign of lettering on those three wagons. Maybe they still used small lettering then - or the image just didn't pick it up very well. Maybe there was some note attached to the image that Bill referred to?

No I can't make out any specifically distinguishing features. However, given that Bill also wrote four volumes on the subject, I will probably go with his statement.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:04 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:The fact that the mine enquired about the possibility of having a second 'private' siding constructed in distinction to the 'public' wharf does suggest that at times things got pretty congested. From the indications on the various photos it appears that the wharf itself was extended from what initially appeared to accommodate up to 5 wagons to a length that suggest 7 or 8 could be accommodated.

Any thoughts/suggestion as to possible avenues to research this?

Tim


This might be a good point to mention the Scalefour Society has a Digest Sheet on prototype research. I had cause to read through it recently, and it forms a very comprehensive checklist too.

https://www.scalefour.org/members/digests/dl.php?f=1-3v1-1.pdf

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Alan Turner » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:05 pm

In the photograph the horse wagon is higher than the adjacent railway wagon. This means it is for off loading from the horse to the railway wagon. If it were the other way around then the horse wagon would be lower. This is why I don't see the facilities for dealing with the coal traffic stated by Bill Hudson. There must be some other aspect that we do not know to make sense of the facilities we see and the Bill Hudson records.

Regards

Alan

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:02 pm

Alan Turner wrote:In the photograph the horse wagon is higher than the adjacent railway wagon. This means it is for off loading from the horse to the railway wagon. If it were the other way around then the horse wagon would be lower. This is why I don't see the facilities for dealing with the coal traffic stated by Bill Hudson. There must be some other aspect that we do not know to make sense of the facilities we see and the Bill Hudson records.

Regards

Alan


Alan,

Do you not buy the idea of a split height wharf ... part for unloading and part for loading? I thought that the official MR photo indicted some such arrangement. I also think that the attached photo of the remains might also indicate the same?
Loading.jpg
This idea might be nonsense in railway terms but there would definitely appear to be too distinct levels to the wharf. My calcs suggest that at a push 3 wagons would fit in the lower section and as shown on the photos 3 will fit on the raised section. The siding tracks themselves appear to have been set at the level of the platform rising up from the down line.

I attach Bill Hudson's Appendix on Traffic Statistics for anyone who is interested.

Tim
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:17 pm

Do you not buy the idea of a split height wharf ... part for unloading and part for loading?

Yes but, that seems to depend on the date. As Noel said this morning, the photo with the Dec 23rd 09:22 post clearly shows only a single height, no raised section. The photos with the Dec 21st 11:35 post show the dual height version. But this does seem to be the addition of a higher section. There is no rail level section suitable for unloading coal in the usual manner unless its a very short section out of sight by the buffers.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:51 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Do you not buy the idea of a split height wharf ... part for unloading and part for loading?

Yes but, that seems to depend on the date. As Noel said this morning, the photo with the Dec 23rd 09:22 post clearly shows only a single height, no raised section. The photos with the Dec 21st 11:35 post show the dual height version. But this does seem to be the addition of a higher section. There is no rail level section suitable for unloading coal in the usual manner unless its a very short section out of sight by the buffers.
Regards


Keith,
I think I am reading the photos differently to you ... and the only evidence of re-building that is mentioned is at the far end of the yard where the land slip occurred, not near the station.

In the photo below I have highlighted what I believe is the raised area of the yard for loading on. The red dotted line marking the edge where the change in level occurs - this also coincides with where the change in level appears to be indicated on the 1911 photo taken from the opposite direction. The dotted line when projected through to the wharf wall coincides with the edge of the last of the three wagons. This would put the fourth beyond the raised level and in my reading against the lower portion of wharf. If the yard continued at the same level I believe perspective would place it as shown with the green dotted line.
Platform from west-1 copy.jpeg

When viewed from the other direction on the other 1911 photo to my eye the two levels seem clear. I have indicated with dashed lines where I believe the upper level ends and the extent of the lower unloading level.
Monsal Dale station 1911 copy.jpg
Monsal Dale station 1911 copy.jpg (85.57 KiB) Viewed 6705 times
The darker area of shading in the photo I would argue shows where the higher level slopes back to the unloading level. This would certainly match the more recent photo I attached in my last post.

Regards

Tim
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:10 pm

There is no rail level section suitable for unloading coal in the usual manner unless its a very short section out of sight by the buffers.

Which seems to be what you are inferring as your low section. But the much higher section as in the pics of 21st at 11:35 does not seem to be there in the other pics.
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