Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

[Le Corbusier]

I have also began the process of experimenting with weathering the track.

The dark line down the middle of the track was usually seen where locos were standing for significant periods, such as sidings, platforms and, sometimes, signals. It was much less common on plain line (ballast which was grubby all over was another matter). I presume that it was the consequence of an accumulation of oil leaking from the motion, and also from the cylinder drain cocks, which would be open when a loco was standing for any length of time.

I presume from the colour that the weathering on the front of the loco is intended to represent the result of smokebox cleaning? If so, the smokebox door would have been wide open, so its outside would remain clean, except in very strong winds. Also, the last job for whoever emptied the smokebox would be to sweep off the footplate and any other surfaces affected. Even at the end of BR steam in 1968 this was generally adhered to, as photographs show, because it was a serious safety issue. Most death and injury to railway staff occurred in low speed accidents where vehicles were moving in close proximity to men on the ground, such as loco shed yards, sorting sidings and goods yards. A driver being distracted, or unsighted, by ash, etc blowing into his face would increase the risks to other staff. It might also threaten injury to his eyes, which could be a career ending matter.

Thanks for the input Noel ... really helpful.

RE: the line down the middle, yes this is what I have observed. At Monsal Dale the area this is supposed to represent is the portion of track just before you enter the station where you have the slip and the loop with the sidings. On the photos it does appear to be pretty stained .... getting even worse as you enter the station itself.... I assume that there must have been a fair amount of shunting and slow working over this area to have caused this. I am still thinking about the ballast weathering but on balance I think I want it realatively clean apart from where there was a lot of working over it.

You are right regarding the weathering on the loco front. I think it has been influenced by some of the more filthy end of steam photos I have seen ... the sharpening of the photo makes it starker than in real life. Easy to remove as it has been achieved with weathering powders .... I will see what I can do - now you mention it it does seem a little incongruous.

[Le Corbusier]

Hello Tim,

The track weathering looks very good. What paint are you using for the rails? I have some Precision Paints 'Dark Rust' but it still looks a little orange in comparison with your colour.

Re. the ballast train, is your chosen loco going to have enough space for the r/c equipment and battery too?

All the best,

Colin

Hi Colin,

Thanks for the encouragement. The colour I have used for the rust is Humbrol Matt 113. I have then worked over the chairs with a Humbrol rust weathering powder as I was keen to simulate some of the rust staining on both the ballast and sleeper. The powder I think also creates variation on the rust paint.

I'm not sure what you mean by r/c equipment or battery?

I was just thinking of mirroring the train in the Bakewell image where I am pretty certain the loco is a 1F. The train isn't I think the full ballast/repair train but rather a local minor repair set up .... could be wrong but I suspect it is for routine maintenance. ie replacement of missing chair keys, raising of sleepers and re packing with ballast, replacement of bolts etc much as you see the gang working on at Bakewell station. I note from the photos of Monsal Dale station that there are piles of sleepers strategically positioned at the track side which would suggest that these are delivered independently of the ballast? Interested in peoples thoughts on this

My knowledge of track maintenance of the type I was thinking of comes from this video ...

[Colin Parks]

Hello Tim,

Re. my comment on r/c and batteries, maybe I have misunderstood the way in which Protocab works. I thought that the locos used battery power in that system.

All the best,

Colin

[Le Corbusier]

Hello Tim,

Re. my comment on r/c and batteries, maybe I have misunderstood the way in which Protocab works. I thought that the locos used battery power in that system.

All the best,

Colin

Ah ... my misunderstanding ... I thought you were referring to the ballast train - duhhh .

Actually it is relatively easy to fit the protocab into the 1F .... theoretically as I haven't done it yet.

The motor goes up into the firebox. The logic board and battery will then fit between the tanks in front of the motor and the switch is bonded to the inside face of one of the tanks. The power charge jack point is positioned in the coal bunker amongst the coal and I generally have a section of the coal which is placed over it when not in use. I shall endeavour to record the build so hopefully all will become clear

[Colin Parks]

Protocab sounds easy the way you explain it Tim!

Re. the video: imagine if we spent time every day checking our PW. There would be fewer faults!

I forgot to say how convincing your working point rodding is. It will save a great deal of sub baseboard work if you can get the rodding to function effectively. The omega loop idea is a great way of ensuring enough travel is available in the rodding to operate the switches without too much pressure.

All the best,

Colin

[Le Corbusier]

I have obtained a higher res scan of the what I have been calling the Bakewell Ballast train (click on photo for enlargement). I would value thoughts as to what the make up of this train might be.

My reasoning is that because there is a track maintenance crew working within the station and because the wagon doors are open across the tracks it is likely that this is a ballast train. There would appear to be only two wagons. The locomotive appears to be a Johnson 1F tank and the photo caption describes it as an 0-6-0 tank. Zooming in to the photo and increasing the detail by knocking down the exposure and sharpening it would appear that we have two vans at the end of the train. The rearmost van appears to be a long wheelbase and has an interesting window arrangement. In particular I would be interested in anyones thoughts about these vans.

88-DMAG-001914 Bakewell copy.jpg

[Armchair Modeller]

For what my limited knowledge is worth, the first (nearest) vehicle looks extremely much like a horsebox. The second, a prize cattle van or similar. Look at the doors on each vehicle - almost certainly for loading and unloading animals. It is possible that these aren't part of the train at all - just in the siding awaiting a load, or return to base on a passenger train. Some of the wagons for the works train may be elsewhere, off the photo. With 2 vehicles already parked in the bay, they may only be able to squeeze in a few wagons and the loco at a time.

[John Palmer]

Having looked at my copy of Lacy and Dow's Midland Railway Carriages, Vol. 2, I agree with Armchair Modeller. Specifically, the further van has strong similarities to a Midland Railway Diag.D412 Prize Cattle Van (pp.396-7 in Lacy/Dow), whilst the nearer van resembles a Midland Railway Diag.D399 Long Horsebox (pp.398 and 400 in Lacy/Dow). Alarm gear is plainly visible on the end of the nearer vehicle, but doesn't appear in the official photograph of the D399 horsebox, so either the identification is wrong or the alarm gear had not yet been fitted to the vehicle in the official photograph - or was added after the vehicles had gone into traffic.

[Le Corbusier]

Thanks both .... much appreciated. makes sense I suppose given it is Bakewell - particularly the Prize Cattle Van.

[Le Corbusier]

Some of the wagons for the works train may be elsewhere, off the photo. With 2 vehicles already parked in the bay, they may only be able to squeeze in a few wagons and the loco at a time.

Am I right in thinking that there should be a brake van of sorts (for the workmen if nothing else)? or is this not necessarily the case.

[Armchair Modeller]

Very likely, as the wagons would not be fitted with continuous brakes. Incidentally, the far wagon looks quite tall - certainly several planks taller than the first wagon.

[Le Corbusier]

Given the lack of information on the photo, for Monsal Dale I am going to assume they are both D299s with a ballast brake and leave it at that - unless anyone can think of a reason why that wouldn't work. The lower wagon would certainly appear to be a D299.

Thanks again

[Armchair Modeller]

Given the lack of information on the photo, for Monsal Dale I am going to assume they are both D299s with a ballast brake and leave it at that - unless anyone can think of a reason why that wouldn't work. The lower wagon would certainly appear to be a D299.

Thanks again

...on the other hand it might be more like this...



or this...



How to lose friends and influence people, or something like that

[Le Corbusier]

How to lose friends and influence people, or something like that

[Le Corbusier]

returning to this one last time

With the maintenance crew pictured working in the station, my hypothesis is that the train is a local ballast and track repair train … so there must be a ballast brake van or similar elsewhere - perhaps because it couldn’t fit in the siding due to the presence of the vans and so was left further away from the scene of the action. Is this is at all realistic as a scenario? Might you have got relatively short track maintenance trains pre war with two or three wagons and workman travelling in the brake as described?

I suppose another reading might be that the wagons form part of a larger train and the 1F is in the process of shunting these two specific wagons into the siding for use by a local maintenance crew …. but that would beg the question as to why the loco is still there after the wagon doors have been dropped and work begun?

88-DMAG-001914 Bakewell copy.jpg

[Armchair Modeller]

It is probably a case of 'your guess is as good as mine'!

What seems to be happening is that the track gang are digging out some of the ballast - probably between the track and the platform edge. There are piles of spent ballast in the 4ft between the gang and the far end of the platform, as if they are working from the far end towards the camera. Logically, the doors on the wagons are open on the wrong side for unloading fresh ballast or loading spent ballast on this bit of track, so maybe there is more of the gang working elsewhere?

[Noel]

The men working in front of the platform look as though they are just packing the ballast in situ, so may be nothing to do with the train. Also, although it is unusual, wagons were sometimes shunted with doors dropped; they might still be within the loading gauge, or being moved where there were no low-level obstructions, so the opens may be traffic vehicles and not engineers' stock.

However, in this case, there are a couple of anomalies which become conspicuous if you look at the photo at high magnification [open it in a new tab and left click on it].
1) The contrast is quite high on the loco and wagons, but much lower on the track in front of them.
2) There is a curious set of straight lines which run vertically down to the right of the loco, then diagonally left below it, up the platform ramp and across the end of the platform [where it doesn't quite match]. From there it runs along the bottom of the fence. It then disappears, but reappears running up to the right of the last canopy pillar, and left of the last light, which also shows a great difference in contrast from its surroundings, seems to lack any means of support, and does not line up with the other two to its left. Thereafter the line does curve to follow the bottom of the canopy, but again it doesn't quite match.

It's too neat to be damage to the negative, so I'm left wondering if this photo is a composite, although why this would have been done I have no idea.

[Le Corbusier]

Sorry for the confusion Noel .... the anomaly I'm afraid I am guilty as charged I enhanced the contrast of the train and wagons on the original as they were very burn't out to read properly ... however I didn't want to do it to the whole picture because it would have overly darkened the foreground. Original scan below.

88-DMAG-001914 Bakewell.jpg

[John Palmer]

I can't see anything in the photograph to connect the engine and vehicles in the background with the workmen in the foreground. If the covered vehicles have been correctly identified as a horsebox and prize cattle van then I can't think of any likely reason for them being included in an engineer's train. In fact, the putative horsebox is standing a little distance from the prize cattle van, whilst the latter is buffered up to the two opens, on which I think I can detect traces of the 'MR' lettering to be found on traffic vehicles. My guess is that there are two livestock vehicles visible, and that they in course of being positioned adjacent to or removed from the cattle pens that were located alongside the line on which they are standing.

Close examination of the original picture shows a 'T' shaped appendage to the end of the horsebox, as show circled in red on the extract attached.

Bakewell train.jpg

These were prominent on Midland designs of horsebox and reinforce my conviction that it is a horsebox we can see here. In shape they somewhat resemble lamp irons, but if that was their purpose then why the 'T' shape?

[Le Corbusier]

Oh Well ... that seems to trash that idea then. Whilst I only had access to the low res scan It looked like the prize cattle wagon might have been a ballast brake van complete with accompanying wagons. It now appears to be a dubious hypothesis at best

So the next question if anyone is minded to give it some thought .... I am keen to build a 1FT and have a suitable loco shedded at Rowsley for the purpose. I have to come up with a convincing reason why it might be pootling through Monsal Dale station circa 1902 and what it might be pulling. I had thought a small ballast train of the type described might fit the bill ... but actually have no idea if such a configuration would have existed - if not then what else

Any takers

[Armchair Modeller]

How about a breakdown train - say a wagon or something had derailed at Millers Dale?

Mind you, even a trip to Monsal Dale and back would be a long trip for something with such a small coal capacity, especially if it had to hang around in steam for a long while.



from The Strand Magazine Vol. XXI No. 28 (1901)

[Le Corbusier]

From what you say it would probably have to run up from either Bakewell or back from Millersdale to Bakewell? ....where additional Coal could be taken?

Obviously 1FTs worked shunting at both Millersdale and Bakewell as photographic evidence shows ... so really we are looking for a reason why one might journey between the two and why.

[Armchair Modeller]

It would need to go to a major shed for servicing, so Rowsley would be a possible destination, light engine. Millers Dale and Bakewell didn't have loco facilities - other than maybe watering?

[Le Corbusier]

So it would have to be Rowsley as the nearest shed ... roughly 7 miles away?

[Armchair Modeller]

Rowsley or Buxton?