Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

[essdee]

Tim,

All my references are packed away for moving - but I think they may be at Midland Railway Study Centre in Derby (NOT Midland Railway Centre at Butterley...) - just possibly, the NRM..

Will try to chase for you!

Great stuff, am following all this avidly,

Cheers

Steve

[Le Corbusier]

Tim,

All my references are packed away for moving - but I think they may be at Midland Railway Study Centre in Derby (NOT Midland Railway Centre at Butterley...) - just possibly, the NRM..

Will try to chase for you!

Great stuff, am following all this avidly,

Cheers

Steve

Thanks for the steer Steve

I have on my to do list a visit up to the MR Study Centre ... to go through there photo collections amongst other things. I think they are in the midst of building work at the moment ... so may be a while yet.

[Noel]

Interesting how dark the signal posts appear. I wonder if they really were that dark or if it had something to do with the sensitivity of the film to certain colours?

They were lemon chrome yellow, possibly darkened by smoke. http://www.stationcolours.info/index.php?p=1_2_LMS and scroll down a little. Both orthochromatic film and its predecessors would 'see' yellow as fairly dark.

[Armchair Modeller]

Interesting how dark the signal posts appear. I wonder if they really were that dark or if it had something to do with the sensitivity of the film to certain colours?

They were lemon chrome yellow, possibly darkened by smoke. http://www.stationcolours.info/index.php?p=1_2_LMS and scroll down a little. Both orthochromatic film and its predecessors would 'see' yellow as fairly dark.

Thanks Noel. That site is useful.

Well, it all looked very convincing until I saw a picture of what looks very much like Northwich CLC station in the LNWR section

[Le Corbusier]

I just came across this ... which no doubt many are familiar with ... but I thoroughly enjoyed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjraY7L9Jig

[RobM]

Fascinating stuff......they've obviously followed Howard's track building posts on this forum......
R

[Armchair Modeller]

Excellent find, Tim

Interesting Sentinel shunter at 6:45 - Taylor Bros, Sandiacre.

[Philip Hall]

Now I am convinced my choice of FastTrack bases was the right one...

Philip

[Le Corbusier]

The quality is pretty low ... but this was also instructive - particularly after my early query about keys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5O5S-faOds

my excuse for this diversion is prototype study into track building ....

[Le Corbusier]

Thought I would put a little track on the trial ballast and play a little with weathering. This is interesting. The weathering picks out the ballast which emphasises the granular nature. I intend to weather the ballast to a greater or lesser extent leaving none totally plain.

This suggests that in the station areas I am going to need to apply the dust more liberally to achieve the flatter impression I am looking for, but on the general running lines, even with very fine grades the ballast will read quite nicely.

I have some even finer mixes arriving soon. Attwood Aggregates do 5 layers of 4mm ballast - medium, fine, extra fine, road stone & dust. My samples so far have some medium, some fine and some extra fine .... I ground a little dust using pestle and mortar, but not much. I am thinking that the medium is too large, and the majority should actually be extra fine and road stone with plenty of dust in the heavily compacted areas.

ballast+rail - 2.jpg

ballast+rail - 1.jpg

ballast 1_zpsmezq4tsq copy.jpg

[Colin Parks]

Hi Tim,

Nice work on the test piece of ballasting. Fo what it is worth, when compared to you reference prototype photo, the ballast looks a little coarse to me. In the past, I have always used grades of ballast specified as '2 mm scale' (Gaugemaster granite), which looks about right. Taking things to extremes, I used ground coal ashes for ballasting sidings, which looked the part and due to your intended method of locomotive propulsion, the fact that the ash can contain conductive carbon elements would not an issue.

The most recent ballast that I have purchased is by Green Scenes. It is also specified as '2 mm scale' and promises to be a good product.

All the best,

Colin

(Edited to correct the name of the ballast product which is 'Green Scene' not 'Scale Scenes'.)

[Le Corbusier]

Hi Tim,

Nice work on the test piece of ballasting. Fo what it is worth, when compared to you reference prototype photo, the ballast looks a little coarse to me. In the past, I have always used grades of ballast specified as '2 mm scale' (Gaugemaster granite), which looks about right. Taking things to extremes, I used ground coal ashes for ballasting sidings, which looked the part and due to your intended method of locomotive propulsion, the fact that the ash can contain conductive carbon elements would not an issue.

The most recent ballast that I have purchased is by Scalescenes. It is also specified as '2 mm scale' and promises to be a good product.

All the best,

Colin

Thanks for the input Colin ... I agree.

Am waiting on a finer batch of ballast ... but I think the process is working. Interestingly, in the station area some larger pieces seem to have surfaced and there is also more compaction, where as on the running lines the very fine is more uniform.

[Le Corbusier]

A quick catchup on my test track adventures. The new Ballast from Attwood Aggregates duly arrived ... 'extra fine' and 'road stone' from actual Buxton limestone. Experimentation looks pretty good and so I decided to proceed. Ballast was applied using the Dave Franks method using a suitable container with a 4mm hole drilled at the bottom edge and then steady tapping to locate between the sleepers. (see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102152-wharfeside-a-lifetimes-project/page-6#entry2929179 post 132) Then a tidy up with a small brush and application of dilute PVA using a dropper. It is neither complete nor weathered but I am pretty happy with the result thus far. It has the feeling of the much finer turn of the century ballasting

Having got the central part of the shelf ballasted I decided to have a go at my first attempt at point work .. using the sub-assembly approach and no power or isolation as I am planning to only use protocab. So no droppers and no under shelf wiring - which is very popular at home!

track laying - 1.jpg

I have to say I found track laying far more enjoyable than I expected and really quite therapeutic. I definitely took my time and overall it seems to have worked ok. I have one turnout complete - though the switches are currently just held in place by the fishplates rather than soldered to the rotating rivets - and both crossing Vs are in place complete with all the check rails. Everything seems to be working ok with both my Clayton coach and coal wagon running through nice and smoothly. There is a slight wobble to the line of the track but nothing too obvious for a first go. I did manage to put one of the rails on back to front so all the keys are on the inside ... and the arrangement of the keys lacks a certain coherence .. but on the plus side it does demonstrate that you can successfully lay the track with inside keys and on a straight run it works pretty well - which is good news for the Monsal Dale Wharf.

track laying - 4.jpg

track laying - 5.jpg

track laying - 7.jpg

track laying - 8.jpg

track laying - 9.jpg

At the moment I have fixed the point actuation rod as per my prototype research and left the tail projecting out. I have some cranks and rodding stools on order and will have a play when they arrive. As an experiment I want to see how the throw might work actually using the rodding above board - the blades need very little movement to throw and are very light ... it'll be fun if nothing else.

Anyway, that's where I have got to so far.

[RobM]

Looking good Tim....
Rob

[Terry Bendall]

As an experiment I want to see how the throw might work actually using the rodding above board

Howard Bolton has of course got functional rodding and cranks to work above the baseboard. I don.t use functional rodding but all the turnouts on the layouts I have built have a functional crank connected to the end of the stretcher bar and this works well. The crank in on the end of a 3mm dia. rod which passes through the baseboard in a suitable piece of tube as a bearing. The end of the rod is turned down to fit into the crank and is operated by a Tortoise motor under the baseboard.

Terry Bendall

[Le Corbusier]

As an experiment I want to see how the throw might work actually using the rodding above board

Howard Bolton has of course got functional rodding and cranks to work above the baseboard. I don.t use functional rodding but all the turnouts on the layouts I have built have a functional crank connected to the end of the stretcher bar and this works well. The crank in on the end of a 3mm dia. rod which passes through the baseboard in a suitable piece of tube as a bearing. The end of the rod is turned down to fit into the crank and is operated by a Tortoise motor under the baseboard.

Terry Bendall

Terry,

I was under the impression that although all of Howard's 'above board' rodding moved, the actuation itself was achieved mechanically below board level (as shown on Colin's track building thread). https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=5241&p=56547#p56547

I want to see if by using 0.6mm nickel wire with a sleeve concealed at each rodding support point to limit bending, whether I can throw the point using the wire on its own via a pivoted lever with an omega loop. The tension movement should be be fine it is the push which will be critical.

The other issue will be if the 0.6 wire looks over large but my mock ups to date suggest not. I accept it might all go horribly wrong ... but then what is a test track for.

Tim

[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Tim,

I have not had much spare time lately to look at any of the threads, been too busy building track like yourself. Great to see your progress and all looking very neat as well. , far eater than mine!

I am being very messy producing gradients using styrene and a big wood rasp, at the moment and trying to keep levels right, so some experimentation going on on the baseboards themselves. It will be another week before I can make any other posts, so I just wanted to say I was very pleased to hear you saying you were getting some real pleasure and satisfaction as you were laying and testing your track and that is what it is all about.

I had a very satisfactory week myself producing most of my points and am now enjoying playing around with them on the baseboards to get the exact feel of the subject - always tricky if you are having to alter to save space and make it a little more compact as I am having to do.

Making and laying your own track has a satisfaction all of its own unlike any of the other tasks in railway modelling. It is true that most modellers miss out on this in the rush to get the track up and running and miss some of the fun of playing around with things like the internal keyed track - I have one point with that type of keying and will probably have a couple of sections of plain track in the NCB sidings.

Happy track laying!

[Le Corbusier]

Hi Tim,

... so I just wanted to say I was very pleased to hear you saying you were getting some real pleasure and satisfaction as you were laying and testing your track and that is what it is all about.

Happy track laying!

Based upon my current experience/enjoyment I suspect I have caught the dreaded track bug Looking forward to your next post as I was fascinated by the varied nature of the sleepering on your last up-load.

Its interesting how a simple test track becomes something you want to develop and you get quite attached to completely by accident Hopefully in due course some rail built buffer stops will make an appearance (I am getting on quite nicely with these) ... and then I can finally return your wonderful bending tool - my breakthrough moment on this was realising that you can bend two rails at once together, thus ensuring they mirror each other exactly

Tim

[Colin Parks]

Hi Tim,

That track looks very neat and tidy! Impressed.

All the best,

Colin

[Le Corbusier]

Hi Tim,

That track looks very neat and tidy! Impressed.

All the best,

Colin

Thanks Colin ... I'm quite pleased so far ... but the proof will be in the weathering I suspect. However actually getting it to work has been a real boost ... after all its a primary reason for giving this P4 lark a bash.

[Le Corbusier]

Finally got one of the buffer stops completed .... might not be quite up to the standards of Dave Franks - but I think passable.

bufferstop - 1.jpg

bufferstop - 2.jpg

In the end I used some Brassmasters fish plates for the bolted brackets with mixed success. I think they read a little light weight and getting all the 'L'shaped brackets to the rear the same lengths was challenging and not wholly successful (the material is so thin that it bends into a cusp when cut). I think I will have a go at making my own with thicker material next time and use archers rivets to simulate the fixings ....and see if that improves things. The rails forming the buffer beam (is that the right word?) are also set a little low - directly off the supports - so the rear brackets don't quite fit because the support continues to rise behind the beam .... all refinements for the next one - this one will be positioned at the rear

Does anyone have a recommendation for the best rivet sheet to buy?

[RobM]

Tim, on my clay wagons I used Archer AR88016 which are 0.36mm. There is a smaller diameter on sheet AR88014 at 0.2mm.
I got mine from http://www.historexagents.com/shop/hxproductdetail.php?ProductCode=AR88016
Rob

[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Tim,
they also do a mixed sheet of variations available in larger/smaller sizes - which is what I bought just to try them out - I have used them on my torpedo tank, just single thickness, but I believe you can double them up to give a stronger effect. They worked well and I will use them again in future.

[Le Corbusier]

Thanks Rob & Alan

[Le Corbusier]

I've been having a play with some Ambis etches I got this week experimenting on the rodding etc. I am having a go to see if I can make the rodding functional and get a feel for how robust it will be. The theory I am testing goes something like this.....

Because I don't need to isolate as I am using the protocab system the stretcher bars have been fully soldered in to the blades with capillary tube strengthening the joint. The blades are pivoted from the heel soldered to rivets which rotate within the sleeper. The actuation is via a separate rod soldered into one of the blades and projecting out sideways beyond the track. So far so good ... I am comfortable this has all worked as expected - it feels pretty solid and robust but time will tell.

For the cranks ... these need to be solidly fixed and to rotate easily. The capture hole for the point actuation rod has been drilled over size to allow for the movement from the throwing of the switch blades. I have been using 0.5mm nickel silver for the stretchers and side rodding.

For the main rodding run the problem as I foresee it is that the wire will tend to flex too much and be too imprecise to accurately throw the points over time. The ideas I want to work through to see if - a) they work from a practical standpoint and b)whether they will overly compromise the looks ... go something like this (they are continually evolving).

Firstly I am going to use 0.6mm nickel silver wire to add stiffness and strength. My instinct is that the eye will forgive the increase in size and one could always argue that it is about right for the hollow pipe which was used for much rodding during my period.

Midland Point Rodding.jpg

Following on from this I am working on a way to limit the bend in the wire keeping it to the distance between the rodding stools (which were relatively close for circular rodding)

I am looking at the Modelu stools and Alan has offered some of his prototype originals for me to play with, which had a wider accommodating gap than the standard ones. My thought is to bond some short (1.5mm) sections of capillary tube into the stools through which the 0.6mm wire will pass to a tolerance fit. I am hoping that by this sleight of hand the rodding will be captured at each stool preventing flex. I intend to make a simple lever action to push and pull the rodding and place a small omega loop at a strategic point along the run to mediate between the points and the lever whilst keeping a positive pressure within the system. The idea is to cover the omega loop with some cover boarding similar in principle to this ....

NRM 1 copy 4.jpg

I am working with Alan to produce some stools which reflect the design shown in the pictures ... I had a look at the Ambis etches but my feeling is that they are just too flimsey and therefore cosmetic. I think in the end I will have a go at some of my own etches for the cranks and compensators, but am playing with the Ambis ones at present.

So far I have made up a crank and fitted it to the turnout as a trial and so far so good ....

crank - 1.jpg

crank - 2.jpg

crank - 3.jpg

I played around with the idea of making the rodding connection to the crank more sophisticated but in the end went for something I felt was both simple and robust ... the curve down of the rod is captured by a simple spur of solder which is invisible from above ... this has ensured very clean rotation in the crank. Making the crank up I used the ambis base and passed some 0.6mm wire through and then down through the sleeper. I soldered on a Markits crankpin washer to the wire on the underside of the sleeper and soldered the baseplate to the wire clamping the sleeper on the top. I then used a mainly trains washer from a brake gear etch to space the crank off the base plate, placed the crank on top and then used some 6mm ID capillary tube to capture everything ... clipping the wire back and filing square. This felt much more robust than using all the Ambis components.

I was reading the snooze over lunch ... particularly Roger Sander's thoughts on Back to Back. I measured my gauge which had no markings on it to find it measured 17.65 - 17.60. Some hastily applied masking tape brought it up to 1770 - 75. I re-set my grand total of 3 pieces of stock and found they ran through the pointwork with less discernible movement which was encouraging .... so the advice (on Colin's track work thread) to get the C&L gauges if using the exacto-scale chairs to prevent gauge narrowing and now the back to back advice has come just at the right time