Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:45 am

Will L wrote:When my walking group comes out of Covid hiding, I suspect it wont be long before we give Dent Head and the Monsel trail a go again. I must remember to take a tape measurer with me.


That would be kind ... and instructive. I have a study visit planned .... but I want to catch the turn as we head into autumn. I have decided that my model will be set just as the leaves start to turn ... so not full blown Autumn colours, but not heavy summer either. The idea is to spend some time photoing all around Monsaldale to provide source images.

It will be interesting to scramble around and see to what extend the original walls survive within the undergrowth. I also want to see if there are any remnants of the original fence and tree line. Along with that I can get a feel for the trees that are currently prevalent in the ... without the elms of course.
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:43 pm

Hi Tim, :)

I am sorry but I have a lot on just at the minute and the layout is stripped down completely for repairs and refurbishment, after the water damage with repairs to the boards and track a number one priority. The scenic areas are lifted and stored out of the way, with the added complication of a new power door to be fitted on the garage, hopefully soon. I don't feel too bad however as you are clearly getting a lot of help and support on this matter, which is all good. I am also facing several deadlines with books and illustration work,so anything railway is being squeezed into various corners of my day!

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:38 pm

That's absolutely fine Allan ..... I was assuming that you might already have some record photos which might illustrate your approach ... fully understand the situation. Anyway ... beyond some experimentation I need to progress the layout design such that I can get some baseboards up and running. Still keen to see what might be possible using Styrofoam ;)
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:22 pm

Le Corbusier wrote: Anyway ... beyond some experimentation I need to progress the layout design such that I can get some baseboards up and running. Still keen to see what might be possible using Styrofoam ;)

Rod Cameron has expanded on his Scalefour News article with a topic on RMweb, a search for Lewes should find it.
Regards
Keith
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:31 pm

Thanks for that link Keith ... I shall follow with interest.

One thing I am interested in is whether it might be possible to bond cork directly to the insulation and omit the ply for the trackbed .... given I use bonded chairs to hold the rail with all solderring taking place as part of sub assemblies. But it may be that it is just too vulnerable to denting?
Tim Lee

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John Donnelly
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:13 am

I used the extruded polystyrene for my first 'plank' layout and found, whilst making the board that it was very prone to denting and any such dent stayed dented and didn't recover, I certainly wouldn't have laid track on it without the plywood track bed...

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:05 am

John Donnelly wrote:I used the extruded polystyrene for my first 'plank' layout and found, whilst making the board that it was very prone to denting and any such dent stayed dented and didn't recover, I certainly wouldn't have laid track on it without the plywood track bed...

Thats good to know :thumb
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:40 pm

Hi Tim, :)

I would agree with John, I made additional boards for an upper circuit on Dubbieside about 20 years ago using a version of the material used for insulation in foundation areas, this was tougher and did not take dents, so the foam type underlay was used as I had spare quantities and stuck directly to it. It worked with the stiffer version. The idea was to build something in about 2 days to go to a show and has survived the 20 years.

The material I was given was what lay unused after the construction of a building in the area, so do not know its correct name. It was tougher to cut, but could be cut by saw. I would not use foam for any underlay these days and only now use cork. If you want reasons I could pass on a list!

In the article he mentions a suitable glue - Gripfill (non-solvent), I would follow his recommendation here - most solvent types of glue tend to eat the material, even when board is being stuck to it so beware of this.

Allan :)

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:13 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Tim, :)

I would agree with John, I made additional boards for an upper circuit on Dubbieside about 20 years ago using a version of the material used for insulation in foundation areas, this was tougher and did not take dents, so the foam type underlay was used as I had spare quantities and stuck directly to it. It worked with the stiffer version. The idea was to build something in about 2 days to go to a show and has survived the 20 years.

The material I was given was what lay unused after the construction of a building in the area, so do not know its correct name. It was tougher to cut, but could be cut by saw. I would not use foam for any underlay these days and only now use cork. If you want reasons I could pass on a list!

In the article he mentions a suitable glue - Gripfill (non-solvent), I would follow his recommendation here - most solvent types of glue tend to eat the material, even when board is being stuck to it so beware of this.

Allan :)

Hi Allan ... styrofoam is the generic name - what I am talking about is the rigid closed cell insulation used beneath basement and industrial floor slabs ... it has a high compressive strength, is very rigid and stable and very light .... but it will dent locally if sufficient pressure is applied. My thinking was to trial bonding cork directly to it for the trackwork ... and see how vulnerable it is. RAVATHERM XPS X 700 SL is one such product which I might look at (used to be floormate 700) There are also less strong products which will bond to it and can be easily carved.
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:37 pm

I believe that the proper term is extruded polystyrene. I used B&Qs own make acrylic no more nails type glue when I did mine.

My concern with just using cork laid directly on top would be that if you did end up putting weight in a localised spot, there would be enough give in the cork for the polystyrene to still dent so you'd potentially end up with dips in the track.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:52 pm

John Donnelly wrote:I believe that the proper term is extruded polystyrene. I used B&Qs own make acrylic no more nails type glue when I did mine.

My concern with just using cork laid directly on top would be that if you did end up putting weight in a localised spot, there would be enough give in the cork for the polystyrene to still dent so you'd potentially end up with dips in the track.

That would be my concern too john ... but there are differing grades with differring compresive strength and it may be that the industrial spec is more solid ...see attached data sheet
tds-ravatherm-700sl-en-2019.pdf
(267.04 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:04 pm

managed a quick play with some tile grout and PVA :D I am aware that this is very quick and rushed with more care needed as to size and order of stones etc ... but I think there is a chance that this might be a technique that will work - and it is not as laborious a expected :thumb

1 (1).jpg

1.jpg
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:53 am

Certainly a creditable attempt Tim. Although I realise this is a first go and you will improve on it, I'm going to be a bit picky, but only in an attempt to be helpful.

The stones in the wall face are over large as are the gaps between them. A wall with gaps like that would be about to fall down. A high spec wall built by a railway company would have had very narrow gaps. Given the nature of limestone the individual stone would tend to be parallel sided and relatively thin. The top layer under the copping stones should be built so it is finished off flat and "level" at a given height from the ground.

I assume you did that stone by stone? I once built a small plate layers hut out of Formcraft 4mm individual scale bricks (still available from Precision Paints), what I learned from this experience was that it took almost as long as building a full size hut out of real bricks. I think this explains why Formcraft never took off as a modelling medium, and why I think you might still need a quicker way given the length of wall your going to need..

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:21 am

Will L wrote:Certainly a creditable attempt Tim. Although I realise this is a first go and you will improve on it, I'm going to be a bit picky, but only in an attempt to be helpful.

The stones in the wall face are over large as are the gaps between them. A wall with gaps like that would be about to fall down. A high spec wall built by a railway company would have had very narrow gaps. Given the nature of limestone the individual stone would tend to be parallel sided and relatively thin. The top layer under the copping stones should be built so it is finished off flat and "level" at a given height from the ground.

I assume you did that stone by stone? I once built a small plate layers hut out of Formcraft 4mm individual scale bricks (still available from Precision Paints), what I learned from this experience was that it took almost as long as building a full size hut out of real bricks.


Hi Will ... your critique pretty much matches my own - though I think the nature of Derbyshire 'field' limestone means you do get a greater variation in size and shape ... your description for me is closer to the type of walling found in the cotswolds or indeed further north in yorkshire? I cast the grout pretty roughly and as it turned out overly thick ... easily remedied. Personally I think that you are over estimating the time, but we shall see. What I like is the sense of individual stones, my carving efforts from Das to date have an overly smooth generic outlook which I don't find convincing. Limestone walls are quite sharp.
wall detail 2.jpg
wall detail 2.jpg (103.56 KiB) Viewed 1180 times
wall detail 1.jpg
W-C-J 2.jpg
monsaldale.jpg
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby hughesp87 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:34 pm

Hi Tim,

On the recent subject of dry stone walling, I finally managed to find my copy of this little booklet produced by The Dry Stone Walling Association of Great Britain.

Building and repairing dry stone walls.pdf
(5.6 MiB) Downloaded 36 times


Maybe you have seen something like this before, but I'm going to use it to refresh my memory before I start my trials with tile grout!

Best wishes,

Geraint
Geraint Hughes
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Danish Railways in P87

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:58 pm

hughesp87 wrote:Hi Tim,

On the recent subject of dry stone walling, I finally managed to find my copy of this little booklet produced by The Dry Stone Walling Association of Great Britain.

Building and repairing dry stone walls.pdf

Maybe you have seen something like this before, but I'm going to use it to refresh my memory before I start my trials with tile grout!

Best wishes,

Geraint


Thanks Geraint .... much appreciated. :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:26 am

I came across this great early image of the Monsaldale signal box on the Monsaldale face book page, which matches the side view I already have ... fantastic discovery :thumb

Signal box.jpg
Monsal Dale SB.jpg


...and then the station from above - 1961 - from my elder brother's personal collection :D

MISC 1961 2_edited-1.jpg
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby DanB3F » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:35 pm

Great set of photos. What is the wooden post with the circle on the left of those photos? I've not noticed that before.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:02 pm

DanB3F wrote:Great set of photos. What is the wooden post with the circle on the left of those photos? I've not noticed that before.

See post here

viewtopic.php?p=61604#p61604 :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:26 am

It interested me to note the lantern hanging below the external gallery on the new picture complete with access ladder. Now this may be well known to the majority, but it was new to me ;) , that it was for reading the numbers of passing trains at night and in common parlance called a 'number catcher'. I found this interesting article on the subject (via Dave Harris at the Midland Railway Study Centre :thumb ), which may be of interest to others...

http://derby-signalling.org.uk/Midland.htm
Tim Lee

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Noel
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Noel » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:19 pm

This quote from the link you give surprised me somewhat, given that it could potentially involve four, four digit, numbers:
"The outside lamp mentioned earlier was used to light the engine numbers, which were recorded for every train, and signalmen developed expertise in remembering the numbers of two double-headed trains simultaneously."

Steam-era signalmen had to watch passing trains for tail lamp(s), and possible problems not visible to the train crew, such as hot boxes [grease boxes could catch fire] plus deal with sending 'train entering section', possibly while something else was happening on the other line. Dealing with all that and remembering, even briefly, four potentially four digit numbers, or trying to write them down in poor visibility, probably while those on the far line were possibly obscured by the train on the nearer line, or the weather, or drifting steam, seems a lot to ask, especially since human short-term memory for numbers, especially under stress, has its limitations.

Another factor is that, in the days of small locos each 'owned' by single crews and with limited coal capacity, long distance trains commonly changed engines during the trip, sometimes more than once, whilst locos sometimes had to be changed unexpectedly because of failures. Quite how this related to train reporting puzzles me. Local trains were presumably of no interest to control, and through passenger trains, especially expresses, were usually infrequent enough for them to be readily identifiable by timings, and were unlikely to get out of course anyway, so control would presumably only be interested in long distance freights, but even so...

Unlike the locos, the one constant in any long distance freight, barring failures, was the brake van. At about the same time as large numbers appeared on tenders, goods brake vans gained racks on the side for code letters indicating the class of train, its origin and destination, which are what control would be interested in. The racks seem to have gone out of use in the mid-1920s as early LMSR vans had them from new, but later ones did not. It's way outside my period of interest, but it seems more likely to me that the outside lamps were there to read the code on the van, not he loco number(s).
Regards
Noel

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:29 pm

I see your point ... unfortunately I am far from qualified to comment. Anybody else? :D

What else might the light be for? :?
Tim Lee


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