Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

[Armchair Modeller]

I agree, most likely a figure. The best explanation I can think of is that we are viewing him slightly sideways on and leaning slightly forwards - bored stiff, maybe? There is definitely someone there, because the lower front of the cart is obscured.

[essdee]

?? The 'lad' by the cart wheel is surely the crumpled end of the material which covers the horse's back end... ie. 'he' is a 'horse's ...'?

Fascinating analysis. Whys the cover over the horse's back?

Steve

[Armchair Modeller]

Comparing the 2 photos there is definitely something else in the high quality one obscuring the front of the cart.

Monsal-station-pica.jpg

As to the cover, I suspect it was a crisp, bright, cold Winter, Spring or Autumn day - there are no leaves on the trees.

[Noel]

Having looked at the two photos together, the relative vertical positions of the horse and the cart seem to have changed. That being so, it is likely that the horse is in front of the cart [parallax] and the shafts we can see are not related to the cart. It is possible that the man, therefore, is standing on a flat of some sort, backed up to the wagon. Shovelling coal into bags, perhaps?

[Le Corbusier]

Having looked at the two photos together, the relative vertical positions of the horse and the cart seem to have changed. That being so, it is likely that the horse is in front of the cart [parallax] and the shafts we can see are not related to the cart. It is possible that the man, therefore, is standing on a flat of some sort, backed up to the wagon. Shovelling coal into bags, perhaps?

Bingo .... I think you have got it - the explanation of the floating man!

[Armchair Modeller]

Whatever the horse is doing the 'cart' is almost certainly a trap for carrying passengers - a bit like this, with longitudinal seats down each side

Monsal-cart.jpg

The animal looks different in the two shots - the lower image suggests more a donkey. The head is much bigger in proportion to the body than what is clearly a horse in the upper image.

[Le Corbusier]

Whatever the horse is doing the 'cart' is almost certainly a trap for carrying passengers - a bit like this, with longitudinal seats down each side

Monsal-cart.jpg

The animal looks different in the two shots - the lower image suggests more a donkey. The head is much bigger in proportion to the body than what is clearly a horse in the upper image.

I have overlaid one picture on the other in photoshop and can confirm that the camera position is identical. In both pictures the animal (donkey and horse respectively) are in front of the trap ... so the assumption is they are hitched to a flat bed of sorts as suggested.

The change in position of the trap and the two different animals suggest that perhaps the pictures were taken on following days?

The trap looks quite large ... as if it could carry four to six passengers?

[Armchair Modeller]

The photo looking from the other direction that you have used to illustrate the change in slope of the driveway is the other one that springs to mind - possibly by the same photographer at the same time as the others?

The wagons are identical in the photos taken from the signal box, so all taken on one day, or maybe one weekend would be most likely I think. Maybe the photographer decided to have the trap moved to improve the later photo?

Judging by the position of the sun, the donkey picture was possibly a morning shot, with the other signal box one just after lunch, as the sun has moved around quite a bit. Maybe he was struggling to get a decently composed shot on such a sunny day?

As to the trap, the driver would have sat sideways with the passengers, so probably 3-5 passengers max. Assuming it had brought the photographer, there would have been all his equipment too, of course. A bit like this one?

[billbedford]

Whatever the horse is doing the 'cart' is almost certainly a trap for carrying passengers - a bit like this, with longitudinal seats down each side

Disagree. The timbering on the sides looks far too rough for a trap, and the sides ave been extended upwards unlike the trap in the photo. This was likely to be a stone cart, bringing stone to be loaded onto wagons. The inference that there were two different ones, suggests that there was a number of these carts in use bringing loads during the day.

[billbedford]

I think the photo that is most relevant to the layout of this yard is the one with the Jubilee. The edge of the wharf has acquired a safety rail, presumably to stop loaded lorries from driving over the edge onto the siding. If you look closely, this rail stops before the van, and the section of edging stone alongside the van is at a lower level than the edging with the rail. It is difficult to see from the angle of the photo just how low and how long this dropped section of the wharf was but it could ave been two wagon lengths fro the buffers.

[Armchair Modeller]

Whatever the horse is doing the 'cart' is almost certainly a trap for carrying passengers - a bit like this, with longitudinal seats down each side

Disagree. The timbering on the sides looks far too rough for a trap, and the sides ave been extended upwards unlike the trap in the photo. This was likely to be a stone cart, bringing stone to be loaded onto wagons. The inference that there were two different ones, suggests that there was a number of these carts in use bringing loads during the day.

Yes, looked into it a bit further and it does look a bit like one of these...

from http://www.scalemodelhorsedrawnvehicle. ... vid%20wray).htm

However, looking closely at the cart in the two images, one has slightly different framing to the other. I wonder if we in fact have two different carts. One has a horisontal piece showing clearly near the top whereas the other doesn't. The vertical strengtheners are in very slightly different positions too.

[Le Corbusier]

[

However, looking closely at the cart in the two images, one has slightly different framing to the other. I wonder if we in fact have two different carts. One has a horisontal piece showing clearly near the top whereas the other doesn't. The vertical strengtheners are in very slightly different positions too.

The one in the high quality image has a clear opening at the rear as one would expect from a trap and seems more finely built. The second cart seems quite crude and just like your scotch cart.

The horse and pony are both definitely in from of the two carts and hitched separate vehicles ... I still favour the flat bed on which the man would therefore be standing.

[Le Corbusier]

I think the photo that is most relevant to the layout of this yard is the one with the Jubilee. The edge of the wharf has acquired a safety rail, presumably to stop loaded lorries from driving over the edge onto the siding. If you look closely, this rail stops before the van, and the section of edging stone alongside the van is at a lower level than the edging with the rail. It is difficult to see from the angle of the photo just how low and how long this dropped section of the wharf was but it could ave been two wagon lengths fro the buffers.

Slightly confused Bill ... Doesn't the Jubilee photo show the later configuration of the yard after the wharf has been raised and extended with the track from the quarry accessing directly into the yard rather than down the lane? It is the earlier iteration I am concerned with pre 1905 where I am pretty sure that there was just the one loading height followed by a platform level to the rear of the buffers.

[Le Corbusier]

Attached is a higher quality detail from the other station angle. click on image to enlarge.

Monsal Dale-2.jpg

Interestingly, apart from greater detail of the yard, the white background to the tunnel for the signal is now quite clear ... still can't locate the signal itself though.

[Armchair Modeller]

The horse and pony are both definitely in from of the two carts and hitched separate vehicles ... I still favour the flat bed on which the man would therefore be standing.

?

A minor puzzle for me is: What is holding up the horse end of the carts that we can see in the background, in the absence of animals? Normally, these sorts of carts would be resting at a steep angle with the shafts on the ground.

[Armchair Modeller]

If you increase the contrast drastically, I reckon you can see the arm fairly clearly - if not the post

Monsal-Dale-2a.jpg

[Le Corbusier]

A minor puzzle for me is: What is holding up the horse end of the carts that we can see in the background, in the absence of animals? Normally, these sorts of carts would be resting at a steep angle with the shafts on the ground.

I see what you mean .... but the pony and donkey do seem quite definitely to be forward of the line of the carts and I really like the explanation of a flat bed with the man standing on it. Given the angle of the cart(s) is there any possibility that they might have been a design which was pulled from the other end ... then the shafts would indeed be resting on the ground?

[Armchair Modeller]

One idea that occurred to me is that they are not actually in the scene at all. It is not unknown for photographers to add or change details to 'improve' them. Donkeys are quite small, for example but the one in the picture is at least as tall as the 2 men in the picture - plus where is it's shadow? Similarly, the man near him on the truck ought to be brightly lit on his right and slightly behind, judging by the illumination on the side of the truck he is standing on, yet he seems to be in shadow.

On the bigger, clearer image, the man on the wagon, the cart and the horse all seem very brightly lit compared to everything around them. The side of the cart ought to be in deep shadow like the end of the truck in the foreground - but it's not.

Could be just my imagination, of course. I should warn you I am on a high dose of pills following a particularly nasty insect bite. I could be hallucinating

[Le Corbusier]

A little more digging has pulled up these images

carts.tiff

l2767.jpg

They do seem pretty spot on for the location and period.

On the original high quality image the lighting looks right to me.

Looking at the first image some of the carts in the background seem to be stored level.

[Armchair Modeller]

I think the donkey looks very suspicious, but agree that the other image could be genuine. Either way, it shouldn't stop you making your model - especially with those photos of carts you have just found.

[Le Corbusier]

Next Question ....
I have also recently got hold of this image of the Monsal Dale Signal Box .... I don't know the date

Monsal Dale SB.jpg

Can anyone explain what the post contraption in front of the stairs might be ... it doesn't appear on any of the other pictures of the box I have. Would anyone hazard a guess as to the date of the picture.

[billbedford]

There is a rotating point signal attached to that post.

[Alan Turner]

Next Question ....
I have also recently got hold of this image of the Monsal Dale Signal Box .... I don't know the date
Monsal Dale SB.jpg

Can anyone explain what the post contraption in front of the stairs might be ... it doesn't appear on any of the other pictures of the box I have. Would anyone hazard a guess as to the date of the picture.

It's a Rotating type shunt signal. See Midland Style or Midland Record (don't have the edition to hand) for details.

regards

Alan

[essdee]

Thanks Alan,

'Midland Style' pp51/2 has a drawing of this type of disc ground signal; text notes that pre 1904, standard ground/dwarf signal was of rotating type, cylindrical, with red disc, one quarter of body green with a green glass for 'off' (as we see in pic), the remainder white -also just discernible. Acfield introduced rectangular lamp cases.
( Semaphore ground signals first used by MR at Nottingham, 1901, apparently, for what it is worth - not a lot of help in dating a view of a rotating signal though. )

So, a standard rotating 'ground signal' - but post-mounted for easier sighting from a distance, as the line had reverse curves between the tunnel and the SB? Strange that it does not seem to appear in the view from the east...

Steve

[Armchair Modeller]

The post is situated around midway between the home signal and the trailing crossover to the goods yard. Which seems a little odd.

Photos I have seen of tall MR shunting signals had a crossbar fitted.

Whatever its purpose it does seem unusual. May be worth asking the experts in the Midland Railway Society or on the Signal Box Forum http://forum.signalbox.org/index.php

EDIT

also just noticed there are no shunting signals at all on the other photos - not even where you might normally expect them. Just wondering if normal shunting was signalled by hand signals from the signalman?