Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
davebradwell
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:22 pm

Well, there's not a lot wrong with that and many would be pleased to achieve such smooth rotation. It stopped in different positions each time which is a good sign. Sorry I got the motor wrong - I just couldn't remember but best left alone. You've got the classic dc motor issue where as soon as it moves, the effective resistance increases and you can't get just the slow speed you want. The pulse width modulation drive should help so perhaps the increments aren't best chosen for our application - can you choose a log scale rather than linear?. It's why flywheels became popular. Try a shunt in the privacy of your own home and see if it's a good experience - it's where the battery power should excel because of all those risky starts.

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my Zimos, though.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:34 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Tim, :)
First time I have been on here for a while, like you I have been busy with a whole number of projects, however this is looking very good indeed. This is one area - battery powered locos - that I have no expertise on so unable to help.Although I do have a couple of friends who have built them and managed to get them to work smoothly, so I will try to persuade them to maybe reply to the thread. In days of yore on conventional models you could put a spare motor running parallel or a bulb into the circuit which allowed for a much softer take off - not really practical in your case. (Boy that really shows up my age!) However a lovely piece of work and as the others have said do not be too hard on yourself. I am sure there will be a solution - how about the makers? They may have some suggestions.

Allan :)

Hi Allan,

Nice to hear from you. I have just returned from a blisfull two weeks away in my 1970 VW camper right down the far end of cornwall near the Minack theatre .... great weather and sea air and a real end of the world feel .... spent the whole time outside - walking/swimming/lazing/reading/just being. Am much refreshed.

On the 1F front don't worry ... I am not despondent - I am really rather pleased. I am a hand of god bod as I prefer the look of 3 link couplings to any automatic offerings and I am now quite adept with Dave Franks' "shunters pole with light" :thumb As such I have had some fun shunting my paltry number of wagons across the slip on my test track and the slowest speed I can achieve I think is workable without being too abrupt. However, I shall keep plugging away as I am always looking for improvement. ;) On my plans for Monsaldale, there is not a great deal of shunting ... just a single pick up goods each day ... mainly mainline traffic with stopping passenger services and use of the lie by. The 1F as I'm sure you recall is scheduled to pull a ballast brake train and it will work fine for that purpose. ;)
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:56 pm

Love the Minack Tim!!

Slightly less refreshing for me when I was last down there - for reasons you can see in this blog post:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/09/ ... et-street/

Pie anyone?
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Phil O
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Phil O » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:00 pm

Real kettle's need a good bit of regulator to get them moving and when I was a kid with a large goods yard at the end of the road, couldn't see the action but you could hear it,(the yard was on an embankment) it sounded like full regulator a good few chuffs shut regulator, coast a bit, apply squealing brakes, change direction and repeat all accompanied by clashing of buffers or snatching of couplings. It was only with the introduction of 850 shunters did things become more sedate. The normal shunter was a Brighton E4.

Cheers

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:19 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:Love the Minack Tim!!

Slightly less refreshing for me when I was last down there - for reasons you can see in this blog post:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/09/ ... et-street/

Pie anyone?


Yes ... I remember reading your blog entry ... which I always enjoy. :thumb I have been escaping down to this part of Cornwall ever since the kids were small - there is a great campsite (Treen Farm) up on the cliffs across the beech from the Minack ... all abit hippy and counter culture, but then thats my alter ego! away from work and modelling :D
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Phil O wrote:Real kettle's need a good bit of regulator to get them moving and when I was a kid with a large goods yard at the end of the road, couldn't see the action but you could hear it,(the yard was on an embankment) it sounded like full regulator a good few chuffs shut regulator, coast a bit, apply squealing brakes, change direction and repeat all accompanied by clashing of buffers or snatching of couplings. It was only with the introduction of 850 shunters did things become more sedate. The normal shunter was a Brighton E4.

Cheers

Phil.

Thanks for that Phil ... I rekon I will be pretty good at the full regulator and clashing of buffers ;) good to know I can pass it off as being prototypical :D
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:26 pm

davebradwell wrote:Well, there's not a lot wrong with that and many would be pleased to achieve such smooth rotation. It stopped in different positions each time which is a good sign. Sorry I got the motor wrong - I just couldn't remember but best left alone. You've got the classic dc motor issue where as soon as it moves, the effective resistance increases and you can't get just the slow speed you want. The pulse width modulation drive should help so perhaps the increments aren't best chosen for our application - can you choose a log scale rather than linear?. It's why flywheels became popular. Try a shunt in the privacy of your own home and see if it's a good experience - it's where the battery power should excel because of all those risky starts.

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my Zimos, though.

DaveB

Thanks Dave ... and thanks for the kind words. I will ask Tony Hagon about the possibility of a log scale rather than linear.

I am sure there will be pros and cons moving forward with the battery option ... just as with other methods of powering. I am certainly not trying to convert anybody .. just recording what I am doing in case anybody is interested. :thumb
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:10 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
Mark Tatlow wrote:Love the Minack Tim!!

Slightly less refreshing for me when I was last down there - for reasons you can see in this blog post:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/09/ ... et-street/

Pie anyone?


Yes ... I remember reading your blog entry ... which I always enjoy. :thumb I have been escaping down to this part of Cornwall ever since the kids were small - there is a great campsite (Treen Farm) up on the cliffs across the beech from the Minack ... all abit hippy and counter culture, but then thats my alter ego! away from work and modelling :D


Sunk a few beers in the Logan Rock in Treen................might have even bumped into you unknowingly!!

This is the only other production I was involved in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6lsexw3TyA

I am hoping the group does another trip but the Sweeney Todd production was supposedly the last - there is a vast amount of effort involved in putting on a production and not to say financial risk (especially for a large production).
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:46 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:
Sunk a few beers in the Logan Rock in Treen................might have even bumped into you unknowingly!!

This is the only other production I was involved in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6lsexw3TyA

I am hoping the group does another trip but the Sweeney Todd production was supposedly the last - there is a vast amount of effort involved in putting on a production and not to say financial risk (especially for a large production).


Great stuff ... very impressive :thumb

One time I would love to see Seth Lakeman play the venue ... quite an atmosphere I'm told on a summer evening.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:33 pm

I sent my video of slow runing to Tony Hagon at Protocab for an opinion and advice. Below is his response ... which sounds encouraging I think?

Tony Hagon wrote:Hi Tim
Thanks for your note and the link to the video which I have just watched. First of all, I am impressed by the motion, looks very smooth and the loco is excellent.
I see the issue you are reporting and you have defined the dreaded 'stiction' which is the inertia of the motor to overcome the magnetic field that pulls the armature around to the next segment. There is a limited amount that can be done to the 0502 LCU you have. Have you implemented 'gapping' which will provide a wider range of control on the 0201?

The real solution, which we are incorporating in the new 0554/0505 LCUs, is to provide feedback from the motor which the LCU senses and to pulse higher voltage current very rapidly to overcome the inertia of the motor. The pulses will be at a frequency that you wouldn't notice, but you would see a much smoother take off from zero without that sudden jerk. What I want to achieve is that 'pull' that would imitate that which a full sized loco exhibits when trying to overcome significant rolling resistance of the train.

In the short term, though, you shouold find that performance will improve as the transmission is run in, because one of the major causes of motor inertia is the fit of the gear train and friction in the bearings. Watchmaker's oil, judiciously applied helps. I had a loco which had a much worse inertia problem than in your video and over time it has improved considerably.

Are you experiencing the same effect with the 0201 Direct Controller in SIMUL(ate) mode?

One thought from your note regarding comparison on Protocab with DC/DCC, and which we haven't really considered yet but will bear further research, is that DC/DCC can provide a higher current than the Protocab battery/LCU can deliver to some motors. The stall current is demanded at the very moment that the motor begins to turn, and I am wondering if the curve of current supply to the motor is slower with Protocab than with DC/DCC which is causing that longer period to overcome motor stiction? However, with the impending new LCUs this should obviate the need for further research into the performance of the 0502.
--
Best regards

Tony Hagon
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:33 am

This might seem like a basic question ... but would I be right in assuming that the main tree species around the station in Monsal Dale is Ash? I am beginning to think about experimentation in tree building ;)
1 copy 2.jpg
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Jeremy Suter » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:45 pm

Hi Tim
No its not a stupid question
Very difficult to answer

looking at the picture the top trees defiantly has the look of Ash. The lower trees on the fence line with the broken branches Could well be English Oak (Quercus Robor) Elm, Ash. Willow or Beech are possibilities as all suffer with Limb damage but the shape is wrong for the Willow, a bit too straight for an Ash and Beech is wrong shape and would be an uncommon tree in the area. Elm is a possibility so Oak would be my choice as the tree next to it with the gnarled trunk I suspect is another Oak and common on fence lines . The trees on the left of the platform I suspect are a mixture of Birch Alder Willow and Ash the one at the back with a rounded top I don't think is an Ash or Birch guessing it could be a Hornbeam or Sycamore, Sycamores introduced in the 15 century have spread very quickly all over the UK.

Its a long time since I have been in the that area of the Peaks but I remember Birch Ash Oak Sycamore Alder and hazel as the commonest in the woodland areas. Were Elms common in the area? I don't know. I remember lots being cut down here in Cheshire in the 1970s.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:34 am

Hi Jeremy .... thanks for the thoughts .... though there is an element of "one step forward two steps back about your answer :?

Monsal Dale is of course limestone soil ... I don't know what impact that has on your thoughts. Like you I felt the trees above the platform towards the main running along the line of the dry stone wall were ash.

I have an aquaintance through work who is an arboreoculturalist ... perhaps I will send him the pictures for an opinion :thumb
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Jeremy Suter » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:55 am

Hi Tim
Lime stone soil will not inhibit any of the species mentioned

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:00 pm

With reference to my Johnson 1F Tank I am trying to get a feel for what might be in the ballpark as far as weight is concerned.

I am aware that advice ranges from load it until it is enough .... to as heavy as can be achieved. However, bearing in mind that it is a small brass loco with limited options for adding weight, what would be too little?

I recall reading on a thread here abouts a while ago a nominal 4 grams per prototype ton as a guide? The 1F running light was 35 tons and fully loaded 42 tons .... that would give a bracketing of 140 grams to 168 grams. Currently the loco is balanced at 145 grams.

Interested in thoughts as I am not convinced by this rule of thumb and am more interested in what experience suggests should be ok :thumb
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:46 pm

Jeremy Suter wrote:Hi Tim
No its not a stupid question
Very difficult to answer

looking at the picture the top trees defiantly has the look of Ash. The lower trees on the fence line with the broken branches Could well be English Oak (Quercus Robor) Elm, Ash. Willow or Beech are possibilities as all suffer with Limb damage but the shape is wrong for the Willow, a bit too straight for an Ash and Beech is wrong shape and would be an uncommon tree in the area. Elm is a possibility so Oak would be my choice as the tree next to it with the gnarled trunk I suspect is another Oak and common on fence lines . The trees on the left of the platform I suspect are a mixture of Birch Alder Willow and Ash the one at the back with a rounded top I don't think is an Ash or Birch guessing it could be a Hornbeam or Sycamore, Sycamores introduced in the 15 century have spread very quickly all over the UK.

Its a long time since I have been in the that area of the Peaks but I remember Birch Ash Oak Sycamore Alder and hazel as the commonest in the woodland areas. Were Elms common in the area? I don't know. I remember lots being cut down here in Cheshire in the 1970s.


Interestingly the consensus at the Barrell Tree Care was ".... 1910 – most likely elm and ash, unlikely to be much chestnut or lime up in the peak district." Oak wasn't mentioned by any of them! Field maple was also suggested. I am planning a site visit so will take a survey of species I find there currently. From the google street view there appear to be a mix of ash, I think elm (would there be any left?) and what look like sycamore but could be field maple.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:04 am

Le Corbusier wrote:With reference to my Johnson 1F Tank I am trying to get a feel for what might be in the ballpark as far as weight is concerned.

I am aware that advice ranges from load it until it is enough .... to as heavy as can be achieved. However, bearing in mind that it is a small brass loco with limited options for adding weight, what would be too little?

I recall reading on a thread here abouts a while ago a nominal 4 grams per prototype ton as a guide? The 1F running light was 35 tons and fully loaded 42 tons .... that would give a bracketing of 140 grams to 168 grams. Currently the loco is balanced at 145 grams.

Interested in thoughts as I am not convinced by this rule of thumb and am more interested in what experience suggests should be ok :thumb

I would have said 50 gm per axle is a reasonable rule of thumb. Most of all you need to have what's required to pull your trains on your layout. Pulling trains on the flat is reactively easy and experience suggests that, unless you want to run heavy trains up gradients, what you have is quite good enough. Do you remember this post from a while ago which contains the experience that suggested.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Jeremy Suter » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:08 am

Le Corbusier wrote:


Interestingly the consensus at the Barrell Tree Care was ".... 1910 – most likely elm and ash, unlikely to be much chestnut or lime up in the peak district." Oak wasn't mentioned by any of them! Field maple was also suggested. I am planning a site visit so will take a survey of species I find there currently. From the google street view there appear to be a mix of ash, I think elm (would there be any left?) and what look like sycamore but could be field maple.

There would not be any Sweet or Horse Chestnuts in the area they both dislike the lime soil. (Both in different Genus and neither native species to the UK) . Field Maple or Acer Campestre I did not think about as today its considered as an ornamental in Garden Centres and can suffer with frost and wind damage like the tree on the fence line. But I think the shape is wrong for Field Maple.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:23 am

Hi Tim, :)
could I make a suggestion as to loading the locomotive. Something I have been doing now since liquid lead has been available is to load small polythene bags which are sealable - you probably like the rest of us have quite a stash somewhere in a drawer. Using a small weighing machine (you can get cheap ones for measuring letters) weigh out equal amounts of lead and pop them into various parts of the body starting with the tanks, but other areas of course may be useful, rear bunker, smoke box, cab roof, etc

The loco can be operated without anything being glued in place and the balance achieved fairly by moving weight around. (Taping if necessary) The bags can be stuck in place later or, if preferred, pieces of lead cut and fitted. If the liquid lead is kept in the bags and they are secured in place then it means that the problem of the lead expanding over time due to the reaction of the water in the glue can be avoided. If you have a saddle tank loco the tank can be filled with lead and then sealed. The little engine that I built as one of the first locos for Burntisland is done this way and if you give it a shake it sounds a bit like maracas! :D

They can even be placed on top of the locomotive for quick checking. To see if weight is transferred equally across the whole engine requires some more specialised equipment - which we had on the Scalefour test rig. If all springing is equal and working properly on all wheels, then there should be little to worry about in terms of transmission of weight. :thumb

Sorry I do not know anything definitive about the trees in the locality of your layout - I also have an area of forest to create on my own layout - love making trees!

Allan :)

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:45 am

Jeremy Suter wrote:There would not be any Sweet or Horse Chestnuts in the area they both dislike the lime soil. (Both in different Genus and neither native species to the UK) . Field Maple or Acer Campestre I did not think about as today its considered as an ornamental in Garden Centres and can suffer with frost and wind damage like the tree on the fence line. But I think the shape is wrong for Field Maple.


detail from Midland official.
Midland Official 1910 Trees detail.jpg

doing a search on Elm and ash in winter the variety of shapes wich come up is extraordianary :?

Ash for example....

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And Elm ....

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:56 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Tim, :)
could I make a suggestion as to loading the locomotive. Something I have been doing now since liquid lead has been available is to load small polythene bags which are sealable - you probably like the rest of us have quite a stash somewhere in a drawer. Using a small weighing machine (you can get cheap ones for measuring letters) weigh out equal amounts of lead and pop them into various parts of the body starting with the tanks, but other areas of course may be useful, rear bunker, smoke box, cab roof, etc

The loco can be operated without anything being glued in place and the balance achieved fairly by moving weight around. (Taping if necessary) The bags can be stuck in place later or, if preferred, pieces of lead cut and fitted. If the liquid lead is kept in the bags and they are secured in place then it means that the problem of the lead expanding over time due to the reaction of the water in the glue can be avoided. If you have a saddle tank loco the tank can be filled with lead and then sealed. The little engine that I built as one of the first locos for Burntisland is done this way and if you give it a shake it sounds a bit like maracas! :D

They can even be placed on top of the locomotive for quick checking. To see if weight is transferred equally across the whole engine requires some more specialised equipment - which we had on the Scalefour test rig. If all springing is equal and working properly on all wheels, then there should be little to worry about in terms of transmission of weight. :thumb

Sorry I do not know anything definitive about the trees in the locality of your layout - I also have an area of forest to create on my own layout - love making trees!

Allan :)

Hi Allan,

The weighting of the loco is an interesting one .... Having gone down the protocab route I have a battery and LCU up in the tanks as well as the motor, so not much room for small bags :? The rear coal bunker is all but filled with the charging board. The interesting thing is that with all of this gubbins and the two pewter loco crew I have a fair bit of weight by default and it tends to sit over the centre and rear of the loco. I made up a plasticard and tube see-saw platform based upon the CLAG diagram to balance the weight. I placed the loco with the calculated CSB centre of gravity over the tube which told me it was back heavy. One area I do have for lead is the boiler/smoke box beyond the tanks. I cut some lead sheet into suitable strips and loose loaded this until the loco balanced on the see-saw This has given me the 145 grams ... or pretty close to 50 grams per axle. I could possibly cut a couple more strips and place them along the tank sides below the battery ... but not much more than that. I might do this as a little additional weight appears to improve the slow starting a little .... this is also improving as the mechanism and drive train beds in.
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:01 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Tim, :)
could I make a suggestion as to loading the locomotive. Something I have been doing now since liquid lead has been available is to load small polythene bags which are sealable ...

They can even be placed on top of the locomotive for quick checking. To see if weight is transferred equally across the whole engine requires some more specialised equipment - which we had on the Scalefour test rig. If all springing is equal and working properly on all wheels, then there should be little to worry about in terms of transmission of weight. :thumb

Tim's loco is on CSBs so as long as he keeps the loco's Centre of Gravity in the designed location, he will get an optimum (designed) spread of weight across the driven axles and hence the maximum pulling power. You can check a Locos CofG with a simple see-saw.

As I see he did (Edit added after posting)

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Jeremy Suter » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:13 am

Hi Tim
They show the difference alright.
Those Elm trees do have the right shape for the broken tree on the fence line. Its a long time since I saw one so tall. I remember them cutting an enormous one down in the school hedge line about 1976 it was all damaged like the one in the picture but that was probably the disease The only one near here is in Tatton Hall Gardens which when I saw it last was only about 30 feet tall, planted since the Dutch Elm Disease problem. We used to get them in the garden centre but they were just long sticks.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby bécasse » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:06 pm

Here is a photo of a pair of ancient ash trees (considered "arbres remarkables") taken today. They are located at an altitude of c.450m and on subsoil of late Devonian schist. I can also provide photos of various elms at different seasons of the year as I used to live overlooking Preston Park in Brighton, one of the last remaining "elm-scapes" in Britain.
[attachment=0]IMG_2754.jpeg
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:14 pm

bécasse wrote:Here is a photo of a pair of ancient ash trees (considered "arbres remarkables") taken today. They are located at an altitude of c.450m and on subsoil of late Devonian schist. I can also provide photos of various elms at different seasons of the year as I used to live overlooking Preston Park in Brighton, one of the last remaining "elm-scapes" in Britain.
[attachment=0]IMG_2754.jpeg

That would be very kind David ... particularly the elms :thumb
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