Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:04 pm

Hi Tim, :)

light clock oil does work pretty well. I use Walker's ship log oil which I bought years ago via a ship chandler's. When cleaning out a mechanism the old solution which watchmakers was was to use petrol, or lighter fluid which would not only clear any dust etc. but also remove any oil at the same time. The resulting dirt forming a pool onto a cloth or paper hanky. Spray electrical cleaning fluid will also do the same thing before oiling. I would recommend oiling lightly to keep your mechanisms working properly. I have recently had to replace the bushes on a couple of engines I built for Burntisland :( when it was first on the go as they had not been oiled properly and the bearings have become worn and this showed as a fine brass dust on the surface of the wheels, the nickel silver coupling rods being of a harder material. At least it was that way around - easier to replace bearings than rods!

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:39 pm

Thanks Allan,

I suppose I was vaguely wondering if there might be a fine mechanism dry lubricant which discouraged contamination ... a bit like 'dry lube' is now the recommended route on bicycles to avoid the grinding paste of oil and road grit. Many mechanisms now seem to favour a silicon lubricant but often this is a grease substitute.

The fine clock oil I have is the one sold by Eileens
Superfine_Clock__4f6324a18d621.jpg
Superfine_Clock__4f6324a18d621.jpg (15.63 KiB) Viewed 3233 times
Tim Lee

Carlos
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Carlos » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:06 pm

Hi,

I would like to ask about oil cleaning and wheel centre integrity... Alan Gibson wheels have the plastic centre, is this plastic resistant to petrol or lighter fluid? and other (maybe milder) grease cleaners, as limonene or acetone? and relatelly, is wagon wheels plastic the same than loco wheels one?

Thanks,
Carlos

PS. Good job Tim, the engine looks great!

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:09 am

Hi Carlos,

Thanks for the thumbs up.

I don't know about the relative effects of different cleaning agents on the plastic wheel centres ... perhaps you could ask Colin at the AGW. I cleaned my set up using good old soapy water and a artists brush ... which seemed to do the job. :thumb
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Carlos » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:46 am

Thanks Tim,

that seems a good idea!

Carlos

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Suddaby » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:26 pm

Hi,

I wonder if you saw "Walking Britain's Lost Railways" on Sunday night on Channel 5? It covered the Peak line from Matlock to Buxton, and featured Monsal Dale Station on the programme.
I'm sure it will be available somewhere on catch-up!

All the best,

Kevin
Rochdale MRG
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:37 pm

Suddaby wrote:Hi,

I wonder if you saw "Walking Britain's Lost Railways" on Sunday night on Channel 5? It covered the Peak line from Matlock to Buxton, and featured Monsal Dale Station on the programme.
I'm sure it will be available somewhere on catch-up!

All the best,

Kevin


Thanks for the heads up Kevin ... I will try to take a look. :thumb
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Suddaby » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:22 am

Hi Tim,

Not sure if you are aware, but there is a Facebook group for the line:

Rowsley - Bakewell - Monsal Dale - Millers Dale Railway

If you put that into the search engine for FB, it should come up.

All the best,

Kevin
Rochdale MRG
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:56 am

Thanks ... :thumb

Recently came across this which I found interesting

Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby ralphrobertson » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:59 am

That's an interesting film Tim. Brings back memories of me standing in a field at the side of Monsal Dale box trainspotting all those years ago.

Has anyone else spotted at 7:51 the last coach on the train looking like there was a door left open? Or is it just me? Looks like it anyway.

Ralpg

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:09 pm

ralphrobertson wrote:That's an interesting film Tim. Brings back memories of me standing in a field at the side of Monsal Dale box trainspotting all those years ago.

Has anyone else spotted at 7:51 the last coach on the train looking like there was a door left open? Or is it just me? Looks like it anyway.

Ralpg


Shame you didn't have a high quality state of the art Cine camera with you at the time :( .......I wish it brought back memories for me .... but mine only stretch to this :D me on the track bed circa 1971/2


2.jpg
2.jpg (312.33 KiB) Viewed 2344 times


I also came across this ... which is also poignant as I lived in Great Longstone and actually took a holiday job as a Plasterers mate repairing all the decorative cornices at Thornbridge Hall for which the station was built.

Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby ralphrobertson » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Shame you didn't have a high quality state of the art Cine camera with you at the time


Ah yes, if only we had digital in those days a lot of memories would be preserved. We used to get off the train at Great Longstone, walk along the lanes to Monsal Head, go down the hill and up to the station, spend time spotting and then walk to Millers Dale to catch the train back to Manchester Central. I don't have any photos, my brother and myself were quite young at the time and cameras were a distinct rarity. If you had one if was a Brownie 127 which did not produce good photos.

Ralph

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:01 pm

ralphrobertson wrote:Has anyone else spotted at 7:51 the last coach on the train looking like there was a door left open? Or is it just me? Looks like it anyway.
Ralpg

I hadn't till now, the shots flip through pretty quick, but a freeze frame confirms the door open.
Regards
Keith
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 pm

I found this on the BFI .... an 1898 footplate ride through Millersdale .... fascinating! Interesting how dirty the Ballast is between the rails.

Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:01 pm

This 1899 film was originally captioned as arriving at Monsaldale Station on Youtube ... with this higher res version this is obviously not the case.

Does anyone know what the tunnel might be and which station the train ends up at?

Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:59 am

For those with any interest in this, I think I have tracked down the Station at the end of the film. There is this interesting link on the films creation (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9cW ... el&f=false) which suggests that the opening and closing train sequences were appropriated from earlier filmings with the 'saucy' part inserted between :shock: :D (thanks to Stephen Lea (Alias Compound on RMWeb) for this)

I think there is a good case to be argued that the station is that at Eshalt .... (thanks to Simon alias 6571 on RMWeb)

tunnel in distance.jpg
Eshalt plan.jpg
Eshalt.jpg


The fact that the trains are different entering the tunnel at the start and leaving at the end would support this reading and suggest that the entry tunnel could be at a completely different location filmed on a differrent day etc etc.

Stephen has also had a go at breaking the two trains down ....
It goes in a 0-4-4T and comes out a 4-4-0! I've not seen this version of The Kiss in the Tunnel before - stunning Midland footage!

The carriages fascinate me, of course. All six-wheelers. The first train is, from the engine:

D504 third brake
D493 third
2 x 29 ft 4-compartment first of 1875
2 x D493 third
D504 third brake

The 29 ft firsts are interesting vehicles. They date from Clayton's first years as Midland C&W Superintendent, before the Litchurch Lane works were opened. During this period, large numbers of carriages were ordered from outside builders, including these, 50 of which were built by Metropolitan and 50 by Ashburys. They were the outcome of a bit of a saga, beginning with them being ordered as 5-compartment third class carriages. Built as 4-wheelers, they were converted to 6-wheelers c. 1880. Many other carriages built around the same time were renewed in 1898-1900 (by square light clerestory stock) but these firsts continued in use into the 20th century [Lacy & Dow, Vol. 1 pp 51-52]. They can be readily distinguished in train photos by their lower roofs (10 ft radius giving 7'1" internal height at centre compared to 8 ft radius, 7'4" internal height for carriages built from c. 1880) and individual steps to the doors, rather than continuous upper footboard. The ones in the film have been given gas lighting. The fact that there were so many of these firsts goes some way to explain why, when 31 ft 6-wheelers were being built in the 1880s, there were a great many D493 thirds and D504 third brakes but only 200 D516 composites - very little first class accommodation.

The rear third brake has footsteps in a diagonal line across the carriage end, with a long handrail on the roof - the latter can be seen on the other carriages too. This indicates that they have steps at each end and standard long buffers - i.e. not a close-coupled set.

The second train is made up of a pair of close coupled sets. Looking at the leading D504 third brake, there is a short handrail on the roof and a curved handrail on the carriage end. This indicates that there are steps on both sides in an inverted V - compare Lacy & Dow, Vol. 2 p. 268, fig. 346, showing train of close coupled 6-wheelers at Castle Bromwich. (The close-coupled ends had no steps.) The next two carriages are 4-compartment firsts but with a continuous footboard. This indicates that they are to D292, 30 ft firsts built in 1883 for close coupled (short buffered) trains. Apart from being a foot shorter, it has all the standard features of the 31 ft 6-wheelers including the higher roof. (I'm trying to work out how to make one for a Birmingham set by slicing up Slaters 6-wheeler parts.) The full makeup of the train, from the engine, is:

D504 third brake
2 x D292 first
D493 third
D504 third brake
D504 third brake
2 x D292 first
D493 third
D504 third brake

i.e. two identical close-coupled sets. The bulk of the short-buffered carriages were built to Lots 73-75 in 1883, being allocated to Leeds & Bradford, Birmingham, Manchester South District, Otley-Ilkley, and Sheffield. More short-buffered thirds and third brakes were built up to 1892 but no more firsts. From the quantities built, Lacy & Dow reconstruct the formations of the sets for the various areas [Vol. 2 p. 264]. The photo p. 268 confirms BT/T/F/T/BT for the Birmingham area; I've recently seen a photo of a K&WV train made up BT/T/F/F/T/BT, which looks like one of the Otley -Ilkley sets. I suspect that the nine-coach Leeds-Bradford sets and the ten coach Manchester sets were found to be insufficiently flexible and so may have been re-formed using additional third brakes to make shorter sets such as the BT/F/F/T/BT sets we see in the film. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to help to narrow the location down between the West Riding (where the film makers were based) or the Peak Forest or Dore & Totley lines, where the Manchester sets might have ventured.

The 4-4-0 is a 6'6" slide-valve engine. I'm inclined to think its one of the first series, 1312 Class. Above footplate level, the frames don't seem to me to extend very far forward from the smokebox. According to Summerson Vol. 3, in 1892, 1902, and 1908 the 1312 Class were all at Liverpool. Not sure how this helps with identification...


Fascinating stuff
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun May 03, 2020 8:28 pm

Hi Tim, :D
some really nice bits of film and full of the Dale's magic! Bet you were excited when you came across it. Have not been on here lately as Dave and I came down with a virus :shock: after attending the Preston show with my friend Ray. Took 3 weeks to get over it and was not particularly well for a couple of weeks after that. Between that and working on other layouts and away with Burntisland it is only in the last couple of weeks that I have made much progress on the engines for Scott's Road. I will start to write up again this week once they are completed and then cover them one at a time over a week or two when I get some time between constructing some other elements of the layout.

There is so much to catch up on here as well as everyone is busy.

Stay well
Allan :)

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun May 03, 2020 8:55 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Tim, :D
some really nice bits of film and full of the Dale's magic! Bet you were excited when you came across it. Have not been on here lately as Dave and I came down with a virus :shock: after attending the Preston show with my friend Ray. Took 3 weeks to get over it and was not particularly well for a couple of weeks after that. Between that and working on other layouts and away with Burntisland it is only in the last couple of weeks that I have made much progress on the engines for Scott's Road. I will start to write up again this week once they are completed and then cover them one at a time over a week or two when I get some time between constructing some other elements of the layout.

There is so much to catch up on here as well as everyone is busy.

Stay well
Allan :)

Nice to hear from you Allan .... I have to admit I had my fingers crossed that all was ok with you :thumb
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon May 04, 2020 9:14 am

HI Tim, :)

Thanks that was very kind of you. I have been finishing off my Barclay tanks in recent times so will be posting each one up as I get them finished, there are other locos I have been working on for Scott's Road, some rebuilds and some finally completed although they have been run-able for sometime, I hope to be like yourself doing regular postings again from later this week. :thumb

Going back to finding photographs and video on the net -everything just adds to your knowledge, but can also lead you astray and information seldom comes with exact dates, which can be a bit frustrating at times. For example the Barclay locos I have been building have had details on and off at various stages, there are all sorts of variations in painting styles and detail that can make quite a difference to what you end up with - I will go into some detail when talking about the individual engines, which after all were amongst the most recorded compared to variations in stock, yard details etc. I have come to the conclusion that unless you are very lucky you will never "get it all right" whatever that means. You would have needed someone who was very observant recording one place and everything going through on one day and who had no worries about the amount of film he had and who also made copious notes and was willing to share. When I was building Grayrigg I came as near as possible with that location due to Ivo Peters publishing his excellent book and the video films he also made of the area - even then you have to work out which of three years you are looking at, but it can be worked out. Amazing the changes made over a two or three year period in what seemed a country quiet location but still main line operation.

Some companies recorded a great deal of what they did - the Great Western seems to have been good at that whereas a company like the NBR left much unrecorded by comparison, however the Midland had a bit more spare cash and seems to have fared better.

Gradually getting back in the saddle :)
Allan

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri May 08, 2020 10:18 am

Don't think I have posted this ... a little dodgy film I took of my point rodding in action. It has now been up and running since June 2018, I have moved the test track from the spare room down to my office, and to date I have only had a couple of rodding stools come loose and slide with the wire ... easily mended with a spot of cyno making sure not to stick the wire in the tube :shock:
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby steve howe » Fri May 08, 2020 2:59 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I found this on the BFI .... an 1898 footplate ride through Millersdale .... fascinating! Interesting how dirty the Ballast is between the rails.



What a fantastic route! if only...….
At about 0.32 it shows lines diverging off to the right, where is this and where did they go?

Steve

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:11 pm

The right turn takes you through Great Rocks Dale, where all the limrstone is quarried now. The left as followed goes to Buxton.
See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=53.25194&lon=-1.83416&layers=1&b=1
Regards
Keith
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri May 08, 2020 4:00 pm

Hi Tim, :)
some very nice modelling of the point rodding and probably the right thing to do with the operational side using levers that are hand operated. You are more likely to detect any problems by the feel of the lever. My original layout boards for Dubbieside had working rods to begin with, but they worked in reverse and simply followed the movement back from the point as I was unsure just how long they would continue to work and did not want to rely on them for operation.

Most of the system worked OK at home, but going to shows with it made me realise that it was too fragile to last, however it was fun while it lasted. I used the Colin Waite ones and glued paper on under the rails where the point rods ran underneath to avoid any shorting.

My friend Chris Gogh has some very nice point rodding on his layout including facing point locks which work and, of course, Minories is a masterpiece of such things. My new layout has very little of the rodding showing as the Wemyss Company were very safety minded and had the entire point rodding hidden under walk boards for protection of the shunters and men moving continuously in the area - similar to what the Highland had in places as protection against snow.

Again a very atmospheric piece of film

Allan :)

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby CDGFife » Fri May 08, 2020 8:58 pm

Thanks Allan, you beat me to it!

The point rodding is looking really good Tim!

Chris

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon May 18, 2020 10:26 am

Picking up on some recent discussion on Allan's 'West of Scotland Group "Starters" build a loco thread' https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=75357#p75357, I have had some correspondence with David Hunt relating to the 1F open Cab. As it might be of interest (and also for me to keep all the info in one place :D ) I am pasting in his thoughts alongside my clarifications...

I am modelling the Monsaldale line circa 1902. I have a photo of one of Johnson’s 1f halfcabs working the sidings at Bakewell. Bearing this in mind I was wondering to what extent half cabs might have been seen on the line. Were any sent to Millersdale to shunt the sidings there. Would they ever have been used for non timetabled workings? During some correspondence with Glynne Waite a while back he made the comment "right up to the closure of Rowsley Shed there was a daily area ballast train which dropped off ballast at various locations for fettling the track." Presumably a half cab might be a contender for such duties perhaps with Ballast brake to drop off gangs in more remote locations?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Tim,
The open cab engines (the late David Tee took me severely to task once for calling them half cabs) were used for local short distance goods or trip workings. Three were stationed at Rowsley in 1902 - Nos. 1422 - 1424 - and would very possibly have been seen at Monsal Dale in charge of such trains.

Thank you Dave,
Sorry to show my lack of knowledge, but could you explain what trip workings might be, and also an idea of the kind of make up for a short distance goods working - would that have been a scheduled working?
Having done a little bit of digging around I have had a stab at range on the line and it seems to me that the range of a 1F with say a 10 wagon train working up the line from Rowsley to Millersdale (so 1:100 gradient) would have been ±22 -25 miles before requiring to take on water … would you have any thoughts on this?

Tim,
The fact that Rowsley shed had three of the 1F tanks strongly suggests that they were used for more than just shunting duties. Trip workings (or targets) were short distance goods workings, generally scheduled, quite often to and from collieries, quarries etc. or between goods yards. Their makeup varied depending on the type but fairly obviously the first two examples would have consisted of the same general type of wagons whereas the latter would be more variable. I think that a 1F with ten wagons would probably just have been capable of running 25 miles between Rowsley and Millers Dale without water providing it didn’t have to stop and restart very often but I doubt that it would have had a lot left in the tank. Hence the ballast train constantly stopping and starting would in my opinion more than likely have been in charge of something with a better range.

That is really helpful …. the distance between Rowsley and Buxton via Millers dale is 17miles - Similar distance Rowsley to Chapel-en-le-Frith which also had a water column, so maybe even a local daily ballast train as suggested by Glynne might have been workable? Given the local nature and daily regularity of the Ballast train, I had been working on the premise that it would have been perhaps only 5 wagons with a ballast brake to drop off gangs at the more remote locations? … or is that completely pie in the sky? Come what may I think I have some good options here for train make up.
I think you may well be right in your thinking Tim (it certainly makes sense to me) and such a train would be fairly easy to model (with the canvas covers on the wagon axleboxes of course) as well as adding a splash of colour for the ED wagons. It would also be an interesting addition to the layout's traffic so overall what David Tee would probably have classified as 'A damn fine idea'. Best of luck with it and I'm pleased to have been able to help.

An encouraging bit of correspondence as it seems to have opened up a few possibilities for me :thumb
Tim Lee


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