Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:27 pm

Back to the 1F .... and setting up the hornblocks and guides using the coupling rod jigs .... and Dave Franks new Universal inside motion rods :thumb

coupling rod chassis Jig  - 3.jpg


Everything appears to have gone together fine .. the rods slide easily onto the jigs and the jigs slide smoothly within the blocks ... so hopefully all will be well.
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:29 pm

HI Tim, :)

all looking good, now remember to mark each of your hornblocks and horn guides to make sure they always go back into the same position. If you are looking for the part of the thread you can find it here -

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=666&start=50

and on the following page. Getting back to doing more work on my new layout over the next few weeks - trying to get the engines finished - they have been a long time on the back burner.

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:41 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:HI Tim, :)

all looking good, now remember to mark each of your hornblocks and horn guides to make sure they always go back into the same position. If you are looking for the part of the thread you can find it here -

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=666&start=50

and on the following page. Getting back to doing more work on my new layout over the next few weeks - trying to get the engines finished - they have been a long time on the back burner.

Allan :)


Allan ... it appears I have been rather lucky :shock: .... I used another set of the highlevel blocks to set up the revised guide positions as the first set are already on the axles with the wheels etc and with the crankpins checked with your other jig - and I didn't want to take all of this apart :?

However, I have just swapped out the blocks used with the jig above and popped in the others complete with wheel sets .... and it appears to be running smooth as a nut :thumb I can push and pull the chassis along the test track just using the tip of a screwdriver and there appears to be no binding anywhere and everything running quite smoothly. Fingers crossed this stays the case under power. .... So, a credit to the accuracy of the hornblocks which Chris produces at High Level :thumb

..... now for the brake rigging ;)
Tim Lee

Dave Franks
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Dave Franks » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:47 pm

Looking good Tim, we'll soon have you building ten coupled locos afterall the Midland had one...

Dave Franks.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:13 pm

Dave Franks wrote:Looking good Tim, we'll soon have you building ten coupled locos afterall the Midland had one...

Dave Franks.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :? :) :D 8-)
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:49 pm

A quick question on brake rigging. :?: :?: :?:

I want to set it up so that it is demountable to allow the wheels to be dropped in and out.

Is there a thread anywhere which shows the methodology/sequence .... I would be particularly interested in tricks to make sure everything is nice, square and true ..... with tolerances as tight as might be without fouling the wheels or coupling rods.

Here are a couple of images of what I am representing ....

1f 0-6-0 T _ Brake gear components  - 1.jpg
1f 0-6-0 T _ Brake gear components  - 3.jpg


Is it best to solder everything in-situ and try and protect the steel wheels as best as is possible ... are there any tips for how to hold things in position for the soldering .... or is it all about a steady hand and going for it :D ant suggestions for the spacers to offset the pull rods from the shoes to miss the wheels.... or is it best to set this by eye and a neat solder joint?
Tim Lee

petermeyer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby petermeyer » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:14 am

Are you planning to represent the springs behind the wheels? If so, that might prevent the wheels from dropping out.

In terms of spacers, I have seen this done with small washers.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:33 am

petermeyer wrote:Are you planning to represent the springs behind the wheels? If so, that might prevent the wheels from dropping out.

In terms of spacers, I have seen this done with small washers.


I've already got the springs sorted .... I have some etches - the rear ones come with a representation of the ash pan and fix via a bolt to the captive nut on the spacer. The front ones I intend to fix similarly ... or alternatively individually directly to the horn blocks themselves.
Tim Lee

Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:24 pm

John Hayes described in an early MRJ article (I think it was called ‘Smooth Manors’) how he produced removable brake gear. I think fine tube spacers were involved. If it wasn’t that article it was another of his on building GW engines.

It’s a nice idea to be able to dismantle, but I know from someone who owns many of John’s engines that in practice they have never been taken apart after completion. Maintenance is a little cleaning and a touch of oil. I think the ability to take it apart was for painting purposes rather than maintenance. As I paint a chassis before assembly and hope not to take the wheels off again, I seem to get away with soldering the brake gear in place.

Philip

davebradwell
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:17 pm

It seems that the last 2 issues can be tackled in one hit by adding what was once called a keeper plate and much favoured by John Hayes. You'll need some cross stretchers low down in the chassis to screw it to and the sections between the axles are usually separate and joined by the dummy springs which appear behind the wheels - first job done.

John Hayes made his brake hanger pivots from tube soldered into frame holes and the brake hangers had wire pins which plugged into them. Brake gear is assembled normally but I've found the vital step is to tie the brake cross beams to the keeper plate assembly usually with short lengths of wire tucked into discreet corners so they cannot move about. The dummy springs often provide a useful pint of attachment. Latest development replaces tubular hanger pivots with grooved pins (can be made up from wire and tube) and the tops of the brake hangers are correspondingly slotted out of the top to permit removal. Advantage of this system is tops of hangers are held at correct spacing by the groove - they tend to drift out with the tube type.

If you can't dismantle a model easily you won't get the running tweaked that last little bit or won't give it an overhaul because it has become a rebuild.

DaveB

bobwallison
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby bobwallison » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:31 pm

Philip Hall wrote:John Hayes described in an early MRJ article (I think it was called ‘Smooth Manors’) how he produced removable brake gear.

It was in MRJ 81. There was a similar article by John Hayes in MRJ 55: this was a bit more comprehensive and is the one I return to time and again for information and inspiration.

Tim, let me know if you cannot lay your hands on a copy: I'm sure we can sort something out.

Regards,
Bob

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:45 pm

bobwallison wrote:[
It was in MRJ 81. There was a similar article by John Hayes in MRJ 55: this was a bit more comprehensive and is the one I return to time and again for information and inspiration.


Thanks Bob .... luckily I have both - so an enjoyable evening of reading and study ahead. :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:42 pm

Apologies for what may be another very basic question :?

I am using Gibson wheels and Crankpins on the 1F. The pins will need cutting back to the top of the nut in due course ... I have left them projecting for the time being. Is there an accurate and safe method by which this is done .... which won't damage anything or muck up the smooth running?
Tim Lee

Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:06 pm

I simply snip them off with a pair of Xuron cutters and file them flush, blowing the filings off the wheels afterwards. Then unwind the nuts a little to clean off the burrs on the threads. Then retighten. When I am pretty sure I am not going to have to remove the nuts I slacken them off again and put a tiny drop of not-too-strong locking compound in the top couple of threads and tighten again - definitely not any kind of superglue. The bond can easily be broken, it just helps as a retainer.

Philip

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:50 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I simply snip them off with a pair of Xuron cutters and file them flush, blowing the filings off the wheels afterwards. Then unwind the nuts a little to clean off the burrs on the threads. Then retighten. When I am pretty sure I am not going to have to remove the nuts I slacken them off again and put a tiny drop of not-too-strong locking compound in the top couple of threads and tighten again - definitely not any kind of superglue. The bond can easily be broken, it just helps as a retainer.

Philip


Thanks Philip,

That was pretty much my plan, but just wanted to check before going ahead .... better safe than sorry :thumb
Tim Lee

davebradwell
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:15 pm

On the other hand you could not put any locking compound on and they still won't come off - unless they're gripping the rods, probably on curves. I'm sure I've never ever had one unscrew - I have an aversion from my professional days to putting locking stuff anywhere near precision mechanisms as it flows very freely. It's come up a number of times recently.

DaveB

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:51 pm

davebradwell wrote:On the other hand you could not put any locking compound on and they still won't come off - unless they're gripping the rods, probably on curves. I'm sure I've never ever had one unscrew - I have an aversion from my professional days to putting locking stuff anywhere near precision mechanisms as it flows very freely. It's come up a number of times recently.

DaveB


Sooo .... don't put any compound and see how they go .... if they come loose, then still don't put any compound on but rather correct the problem :D

I suppose the counter argument would be .... through even gentle vibration over time nuts with no form of locking can work loose? It doesn't have to be the rods causing the issue?
Tim Lee

davebradwell
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:58 pm

Yes, it would be standard practice to use a locking washer on a screwed fastener but in my recollection where I worked, we only became obsessive about this when jets took over airfreight- just a little before my time but remembered by my mentors. By mimicking the high frequencies of these engines on a vibration table screws can be made to just unwind themselves. There's other ways of locking a nut - squeeze it slightly oval if you must or leave a tiny burr on the end of the crankpin or even damage a thread.

I'll smile if a nut comes off at my next operating session!

DaveB

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:05 pm

I think for the time being I will go without locking and see how we go .... I am not going to be thrashing it at scale 75mph round and round ... gentle plodding up and down with a 3 truck ballast train at scale 25mph is the name of the game :thumb
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:17 am

While I will admit that I'm not the most prolific loco builder, my experience says that so long as the crankpin bush is noticeably deeper then the hole in the rods (not a lot, but detectable with a finger nail) then screwing the nut down tight on the bush (hold them in a pin chuck to screw them down) will normally lock it enough to prevent it unwinding. There have been occasional exception but they aren't shy and you do tend to find out about ones prone to do this fairly quickly, certainly during the usual testing and running in phase. I suppose thinning the rod a bit might cure but I have used threadlock on known offenders. None the less most stay done up for years without. This approach might not do if air safety depended on it but If one does unwind I do have the odd spare due to their tendency to sacrifice themselves to the GCG during the construction phase.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:01 am

Will L wrote:...then screwing the nut down tight on the bush (hold them in a pin chuck to screw them down) will normally lock it enough to prevent it unwinding.


Thanks for the pin chuck ruse :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:16 am

One thing I would share with any other beginners out there who might be taking an interest in my efforts ....

Keep the moving parts as clean as possible. I have found that remedial or cleaning up work with files which generates metal dust can easily get into the moving parts (particularly if there is any lubrication present). This can manifest in a sticky motion and give the false impression of tight spots. Clean it all thoroughly ..... and bingo you have a nice smooth motion again with no binding.
Tim Lee

DougN
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby DougN » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:50 am

Tim I endlessly can geting the nuts to loosen and fall off. :o

So the solution I heard or read some where was to use nail varnish. If you use clear it can be v ry helpful. The nuts no longer come off but can be removed with pliers as the bond isn't that strong. So a reversible situation if something goes wrong!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:50 am

Thanks Doug ... another one for the armoury :thumb
Tim Lee

davebradwell
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:57 am

Can I suggest, DougN, that if your nuts are falling off you check that there is visible sideplay of the rods on the crankpins and particularly on curves. At least your nail varnish doesn't migrate like Loctite but shellac would be more in keeping and similarly loosened with the appropriate solvent. There's something causing the problem, though.

DaveB


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