Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
DougN
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby DougN » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:09 am

Tim I think you have answered your own question in the last post. The universal which I think is the one you have in the photos has the clamp with both the cross slides/screws which is what you use to rivet the brass. There is graduations on the wheels so you can calculate the pitch on the rivets and space them correctly. I have one of these also when I am doing a lot of kit building I have found it invaluable. I have not had to do any scratch building recently but the design of the rivet press can produce straight lines there is a way to calculate the circular set out to do circles of evenly spaced rivets!

Good luck with the decision :thumb
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:26 am

DougN wrote:Tim I think you have answered your own question in the last post. The universal which I think is the one you have in the photos has the clamp with both the cross slides/screws which is what you use to rivet the brass. There is graduations on the wheels so you can calculate the pitch on the rivets and space them correctly. I have one of these also when I am doing a lot of kit building I have found it invaluable. I have not had to do any scratch building recently but the design of the rivet press can produce straight lines there is a way to calculate the circular set out to do circles of evenly spaced rivets!

Good luck with the decision :thumb


Hi Doug,

I thought the first image was the standard press and the second the universal - the first doesn't have the cross slide I don't think? The question was whether the cross slide is a nice to have but perfectly manageable without if you are not doing riveting regularly ... £45 - £95 is a big jump :?

Can you rivet plasticard with it as well as metals?
Tim Lee

DougN
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby DougN » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 am

I have never tried to rivet plasticard, being keen on brass personally (I was actually looking at my finney V2 that I need to finish) I have only one point and anvil. Not sure if these come with more normally. Personally I think the extra will in the dim distant future seem like spare change once you have been using it for years. I have really been feeling my way forward using it, as I have never had any instructions as I purchased it from a local modeller who passed away. It is also a great way to remind myself of him. He was a good friend for about 12 years or so.

If you can mak it to scalefourum you can actually test and feel them.

I have found the GW press is better than the other rivet press I had used which was I think Gordon Ashton version or the drop version I had tried.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:39 pm

a true comparison picture between the two ... the question is, how useful are the moving slides? The standard tool seems a pretty impressive piece of kit as is.

proxy.duckduckgo.jpg
proxy.duckduckgo.jpg (324.83 KiB) Viewed 1591 times
Tim Lee

petermeyer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby petermeyer » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:39 pm

I have the cross slide; it's great for doing straight lines of evenly spaced rivets such as along the edge of a footplate.

It came with two 4mm points one of which is for half etched rivets. There are also 7mm and 2mm points.

Peter

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:09 am

Next stage of progress on the 1F chassis. I located the fulcrum points based upon the read out of the spread sheet. In the end I used the Highlevel jig to locate the the horizontal line position for these points (but nothing more) and scribed this line on to one of the the frames. The positions and edges of the cutouts on the gibson frames measured very accurately as related to the wheel centres ... so I could use the centre line of the cutouts to measure from. Using callipers I could then mark the cross hairs accurately for the fulcrum positions along the scribed horizontal line. I popped these points with a centre punch and then drilled a 0.7mm pilot hole at each point. I then tack soldered the two frames together and used the pilot holes to drill through the corresponding positions on the second frame. Following this, the holes were opened out to the right size to give a snug fit to the short handrail knobs I am using. The frames were then separated and all the knobs soldered into place.

Next I made up the highlevel hornblock assemblies and loose threaded them on to .5mm nickel silver wire threaded through the fulcrums to check the set up. All seems well and good .... though I do wonder how the offset of the tags might effect the fulcrum points - as it is only the leading edge of the tags which lies on the wheel centre lines :?
CSB First stage - 3.jpg


Next stage will be to take the wire out dropping out the hornblock assemblies and solder up the frames. After that we can look at using the coupling rods to solder the hornblock guides into position ;)
Tim Lee

andrewnummelin
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby andrewnummelin » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:43 am

petermeyer wrote:I have the cross slide; it's great for doing straight lines of evenly spaced rivets such as along the edge of a footplate.

It came with two 4mm points one of which is for half etched rivets. There are also 7mm and 2mm points.

Peter

Here's an example, with different spacings and sizes that I could not have achieved by hand.
rivets2.jpg

And not just straight lines:
smokebox rivets.jpg

(I'm happy with the rivets but not the rest of my modelling!)

For pushing out half etched rivets the cross slide is probably an inconvenience and a simpler piece of kit is preferable.

Embossing plastic does work, but the resulting distortion can lead to problems because the stresses induced may relax resulting in steady deterioration of the appearance.

The tool can also be used as a very sophisticated centre punch for marking out where to drill holes.

A limitation is the length of the slide: I've often thought of modifying it by making a slide a bit longer than the biggest model I intend to make. This is, naturally, in the roundtuit category!
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:58 am

petermeyer wrote:I have the cross slide; it's great for doing straight lines of evenly spaced rivets such as along the edge of a footplate.

It came with two 4mm points one of which is for half etched rivets. There are also 7mm and 2mm points.

Peter
andrewnummelin wrote:Here's an example, with different spacings and sizes that I could not have achieved by hand.
rivets2.jpg

And not just straight lines:
smokebox rivets.jpg

(I'm happy with the rivets but not the rest of my modelling!)

For pushing out half etched rivets the cross slide is probably an inconvenience and a simpler piece of kit is preferable.

Embossing plastic does work, but the resulting distortion can lead to problems because the stresses induced may relax resulting in steady deterioration of the appearance.

The tool can also be used as a very sophisticated centre punch for marking out where to drill holes.

A limitation is the length of the slide: I've often thought of modifying it by making a slide a bit longer than the biggest model I intend to make. This is, naturally, in the roundtuit category!


Thanks to you both for this input ... much appreciated :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:03 am

Next stage .... drop out the CSBs and square up the chassis. This process is a little Heath-Robinson but hopefully will work out ok.

I use some circular P4 jig spacers to ensure that the frames are vertical and parallel to each other due to the machined ends. I then use a piece of glass and push the top of the frames flush with the face of the glass to ensure they are true level and flat. Finally I use a square set down the line of the frames to push the ends tight to the spare ensuring everything is aligned. ..... seems ok :thumb

Squaring the chassis - 2.jpg
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:13 am

Following this exercise I soldered in the frame spacers in the planned positions. The top vertical spacer has had sections filed out to accommodate the csb wires. Everything then rechecked against the square and all seems true ... time will tell :?

I have then re mounted the hornblock units on the CSBs and set up my Perseverance jigs to begin the process of fixing the hornguides in place using the coupling rods to set the wheel centres. the next thing will be to ensure the guides are square and set to the top of the cutouts with everything centred as good as I can manage and then solder the guides in place ...

I note that the CSB wire has to deflect slightly outwards from the frames to accommodate the Highlevel tag .. which suggests the handrail knobs could have done with being soldered in place projected slightly further out ... not sure how you would do this accurately and easily - hopefully the deviation will have negligible impact on the actual spring wire performance.
coupling rod spacing setting up - 3.jpg

coupling rod spacing setting up - 4.jpg
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Tim Lee

davebradwell
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:57 am

You're making a nice job of it and I noticed your attempts to introduce a bit of precision. Surely it deserves a cylinder front and rear - the rear is visible as a continuation of the smokebox and the front can be seen under the buffer beam. There's always a very prominent motion bracket to support the ends of the slidebars, too. The pick-ups for the front wheels can then be fixed under the cylinder and those for the other wheels under the ashpan to preserve the open feel of the frames.

Remember squareness of the axles is more important than frame squareness. Get the middle axle square first without the jigs and preferably using a longer piece of straight silver steel instead of the axle. After that check for movement of the other hornguides in the frame cutouts so that the position as set by the jig isn't being influenced by any other contact. You have to feel for the sweet spot as the friction produced by the springs tends to bias the final position depending which way the hornguide was last moved. Good luck.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:17 am

davebradwell wrote:You're making a nice job of it and I noticed your attempts to introduce a bit of precision. Surely it deserves a cylinder front and rear - the rear is visible as a continuation of the smokebox and the front can be seen under the buffer beam. There's always a very prominent motion bracket to support the ends of the slidebars, too. The pick-ups for the front wheels can then be fixed under the cylinder and those for the other wheels under the ashpan to preserve the open feel of the frames.


Thanks for the input Dave ... much appreciated and the centre axle advice is particularly helpful - not something I have heard before :thumb.

You may not have picked up, but I am using protocab as the power system for my locos ... so no pick ups at all. I have been giving thought to cylinders and motion (which is why I have left space & avoided a clashing spacer in this area) so your thoughts are opportune. I don't suppose you have an example of the sort of thing you describe :?:
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:20 am

now ... the chassis with hornguides soldered in place. Not having any suitable silver steel rod I used my reamer to set the centre axle square ... it projected a fair way and hopefully has worked :? If I were to do it again I would spend a little more time equalising the hornblock positions in the cutouts as the whole assembly has crept a little towards the rear .... but I don't think this will have any real impact on the final product ;)

Having removed the jigs I threaded the axles into place and trial fitted the whole thing to the footplate to see how it went together ... so far so good.

Next problem .... mounting the wheels on square and assembling gearbox and motor :?
trial mount of shassis to foot plate - 5.jpg

trial mount of shassis to foot plate - 2.jpg

trial mount of shassis to foot plate - 1.jpg
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:47 am

Tim

This is coming along nicely and I'm with Dave, get the centre axle true first and then work on to the others.

Le Corbusier wrote:...I note that the CSB wire has to deflect slightly outwards from the frames to accommodate the Highlevel tag .. which suggests the handrail knobs could have done with being soldered in place projected slightly further out ... not sure how you would do this accurately and easily - hopefully the deviation will have negligible impact on the actual spring wire performance.


I almost commented on the the way you fitted the handrail knows before as I expected that you might run into this problem but it was a litte late to advise at that point. It won't effect the way the suspension works but it does make getting the wires in during re-assembly a bit more tricky.

As I use a chassis jig, and as a result fit the horn-guide etches to the chassis sides before I assemble the frame, putting the fulcrum points in so they line up with the wire is strait forward as described about half way down this post and from a different angle in this post. Clearly as you are using axle jigs to assemble the fames first, you can't do it quite as described, but in future you should be able to assemble the bits along a wire and place them on the chassis side so the wire is held the right distance form the chassis side as you solder in the fulcrum points.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:07 pm

Will L wrote:....but in future you should be able to assemble the bits along a wire and place them on the chassis side so the wire is held the right distance form the chassis side as you solder in the fulcrum points.


Of course .... thanks for that. Tips like your's and Dave's are the great strength of the forum and make posting work in progress really worth while if a little scary :thumb
Tim Lee

davebradwell
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:40 pm

Did I see you were at Scaleforum Tim, if so it's easier for you to come over for a chat.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:58 pm

davebradwell wrote:Did I see you were at Scaleforum Tim, if so it's easier for you to come over for a chat.

DaveB


That sounds like a plan .... I will come over and introduce myself. - thanks
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:11 pm

This may sound like an extremely basic question ... but

Is there a simple method by which one solders up the seam on a rolled boiler? .... a simple method to ensure it is true, round and supported until the seam grips? .... just thought I would ask before starting to try and re-invent the wheel ;)

Also ... should the seam be strengthened in any way and if so how? :thumb
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:50 am

Further progress on the 1F ...

I have been experimenting with the motor and gear box and have decided to house it in the front portion of the boiler using a Hi Level gear box. I have loose fitted and it seems to work ok. This has meant building up the body to a level that I can ensure it fits. The battery and LCU will then sit between the tanks. Charging point and switch will be located in the coal bunker with wires running invisibly beneath the cab floor ... that's the plan anyway :?

Other things ... I have adapted the front end to the earlier Johnson profile using an LRM door casting. Reasonably happy with this ... but next time round, when I finally have a lathe I would I think make up a double backing plate allowing the door to be recessed in flush as per the prototype. I have started the cab detail by fitting an LRM boiler backplate. I have made up some spectacle rings from wire to finesse the cab portholes. I will have to fabricate up the square wheel housings in the cab and from photos the floor is quite raised to avoid the curve of the splasher beyond the cab opening. I am also in the process of detailing the slide door to the coal bunker at the rear as the kit ignores this ... all good fun :thumb

I am breaking the body into sub assemblies to facilitate the cab painting as well as fitting over the motor position.

Any way ... some pictures of the current state of play. - firstly broken down, and then loose laid together. A bit rough round the edges in places, but overall I am pretty pleased for a first attempt at a brass loco kit ;)

1F progress build - 28-9-19 - 1.jpg


1F progress build - 28-9-19 - 7.jpg


1F progress build - 28-9-19 - 8.jpg


1F progress build - 28-9-19 - 10.jpg


RFBMCT24710 MR No 1424.jpg
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:01 pm

Tim

I will be interested to see how you get the motor into the body when fitting the chassis and how your torque reaction link in. If your in Scaleforum tomorrow you could bring the bits?

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:25 pm

Will L wrote:Tim

I will be interested to see how you get the motor into the body when fitting the chassis and how your torque reaction link in. If your in Scaleforum tomorrow you could bring the bits?


Thoughts that are and have exercised me as well :?

As far as getting the motor in I think there is enough wriggle room with body attached .... but the fall back is to keep the body broken down as indicated .... you can then slide it in comfortably.

As far as the torque reaction is concerned I was hoping to use the boiler itself ... my thinking was to place a rubber lining within to give some isolation and then simply allow the motor to move?

I will bring it with me tomorrow... thanks Will
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:27 pm

HI Tim, :)

It was lovely to see just how well your locomotive is coming on and the care with which you are making it. I hope my little bit of input helps you towards a successful conclusion. The use of the rubber can be a solution - I have used this method in the past and it has worked. The rubber used was bicycle tube, it also has the effect of deadening the sound of motor and gears. I use a band of stiff brass wire these days and allow the motor to move within certain parameters. it allows the motorised axle to move and follow any movement within the hornblocks - even as they wear. It also stops any knock that might occur against the body.

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:28 pm

Thanks Allan,

Really enjoyed our chat and learned a fair bit :thumb

I had a good session with Will and looking at the fit of everything we thought that a horizontal torsion link should work ... the concern with the rubber idea was the impact upon the csb springing ... the worry was that under heavier loads the potential for downward pressure on the driven axle could unbalance the loco.

I'll post how I get on ... am busy making my crankpin jig at the moment ;)
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:00 am

Hi Tim, :)

I am just getting around to a bit of reorganisation this morning in my workroom as I can move away from working on both East Group (Burntisland) and West Group (Calderside) stuff for a while and get back to preparing Dubbieside for the Newcastle show. I have not forgotten your request that I put up some photos of Dubbieside on the Scalefour Society's site, it may increase the uptake for exhibitions over the next couple of years. It would be nice to have it at a couple of shows during its 50th year of exhibiting. The first time part of it was out on show was 1973 although parts were being made long before that.

It will go to Newcastle in a restored state - to show what the layout looked like in its early days, rather than have the main line running along the back as it has been in recent years as it has to fit into a space left by a layout that has been withdrawn.

I will also be working up my new Wemyss layout. I had a chat with one of the organisers at Scalefourum. It was intended that the layout could come along to Scalefour North next year and although I think I can get it operating and scenically finished etc.it might take a little longer to complete all that I want to do before taking it out on to the exhibition circuit, so I will have to make my mind up by the end of October what to do. It is booked for next year's Newcastle show and that should be more possible to complete all aspects and bring it up to exhibition standards of operation etc. Not sure what to do really, I will see how this month progresses.

Allan :)

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby davebradwell » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:28 am

While we're wading in here's the method I recommend for restraining the gearbox. The axle must be able to rock so the top of the motor will move sideways. The transverse slot is the obvious way of allowing this while taking the torque reaction. In practice I line the slot with slit ptfe tubing to avoid rattle from electronic motor drives - something to be wary of with loose pivots on a torsion bar, necessary to allow the side movement. I didn't invent the design but immediately saw how correct it was when shown years ago. Poor design of gearbox restraint can be a cause of poor running - I learn't from experience.

DaveB

Scangen011.jpg
Scangen011.jpg (67.34 KiB) Viewed 792 times


Diagram pinched from kit instructions - it is appropriate for any motor/gearbox or indeed gearbox only. I might think again where a drive-stretcher gives a long overhang.


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