Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:16 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
Will L wrote: If you mount them in the bearing carrier with the plane of the curvature at right angles to the plane of the carrier, and solder them in so they can’t turn, the wire will be effectively strait.


Thanks Will,

I have soldered the wire in as I find the carriers very flimsy and was worried about fatigue over time.

I will straighten the wires as much as possible and put it down to experience. :thumb

Or melt the solder and turn the wire so it is effectivly strait?

I think most have found the bearing cariers strong enough for the work they do. They don't carry that much weight.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:16 am

Can I ask what might be a basic question. I am looking at the braking mechanism on the 10Ton Midland Brake Van. I am having trouble understanding how the brakes on one side of a given wheel are applied.
10 TON GOODS BRAKE VAN Diagram No.390 Brake Detail.jpg


Have I understood the pivot point correctly? The pull for the right hand brake is fine ... but for the left is the pivot I highlight floating? - there appears to be a hinge at this point as well linking back up to the subframe? I would have expected a pivot point equidistant from both brake attachments. I would appreciate an explanation.
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:47 am

Can't find your pivot 1 on your drawing. However. The bar which has your pivot 2 marked has another pivot at the other end where it attaches to the wagon frame. When you include that in it all works.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:42 pm

Will L wrote:Can't find your pivot 1 on your drawing. However. The bar which has your pivot 2 marked has another pivot at the other end where it attaches to the wagon frame. When you include that in it all works.


I am really just trying to understand how the left hand brake is applied. What you are reading as a 2 is a question mark. As I understand things the main rod linking to the brake actuator pulls the vertical blade at the top to the right. I am assuming this blade pivots around the position I have arrowed as the pivot. This pulls the right hand brake into the wheel. What I don't understand is how the left hand brake is pulled in to the wheel as it appears to connect at the pivot point. The only way I can make it all work is if the right hand brake is applied first and once it is hard against the wheel its connection then acts as the pivot to pull on the left had brake shoe pivoting around the connection to the floor framing?
10 TON GOODS BRAKE VAN Diagram No.390 Brake Detail.jpg
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:15 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I am really just trying to understand how the left hand brake is applied... As I understand things the main rod linking to the brake actuator pulls the vertical blade at the top to the right. I am assuming this blade pivots around the position I have arrowed as the pivot. This pulls the right hand brake into the wheel...
Then when that brake block hits the wheel and you continue to pull on the actuator, the pivot point is itself pulled toward the centre of the wheel (pivoting about the top of the leaver which supports it from the wagon chassis}, and hence pulls the second brake block against the wheel. This is pretty much how most two break blocks per wheels linkages work. Understand this one and they will all make sense.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:48 pm

Will L wrote: This is pretty much how most two break blocks per wheels linkages work. Understand this one and they will all make sense.

Thanks :thumb :thumb :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:29 pm

I have been doing some research into the kind of Goods/minerals traffic that might have been seen at and through Monsal Dale ... would be interested in what people think and whether I might be on the right track or not (pun intended :D )

MonsalDale itself Circa 1903 ish.

Small Goods wharf and lie by ... Local domestic coal .. the odd Frank Lomas wagon in for individual farmers to unload plus the odd wagon unloaded and carted by Lomas around the locality for sale (both deliveries verbally recorded in Bill Hudsons' book)

Putty Hill Mine ... between 1 and 2 thousand tons of calcite taken out yearly ... ie 2-4 wagons weekly (info from PDMHS) .. assume that no quarried limestone is being exported at this time as anticipation of this would appear to have been the reason for the additional siding request of 1914 followed by the raising of the wharf.

Coal in for the mine - general plus the steam pumping engine - 3 coal wagons in the 1911 photo picked out by Hudson as Butterley.

Some local goods in and out but very minor.

Milk collection and return via the platforms.

I am assuming that the main coal deliveries and Supplies in and out for Cressbrook Mill by this time utilise the Monsal Dale siding at Hassop.

There is a daily pick up goods in both directions.

--------------------------------

The rest will be through traffic some of which makes use of the lie by.

Alongside coal deliveries to Monsal Dale there are local supplies to Millersdale/Buxton/Peak forest and Chapel-en-le-Frith by local agents with their own PO wagons all bringing supplies on the down line ... Frank Lomas/Tom Wright/Kirkland and Pirkin/Sidney Farrow - Bill Hudson has drawings and detail on the livery.

There was considerable Coal supplied and empties returned to and from the various Gas works and to the Buxton area lime kilns. These tended to be Colliery supplied but not exclusively - from .... Butterley / Staveley / Pinxton / Claycross / J.C.Abbot / Ekington / Grassmoor / Nunnery / Swanwick / Bolsover / Sherwood / Stanton / New Hucknall / Manton Wood / Gedling / Wellbeck / Taylor Frith & Co / Babbington. All of these are recorded by Hudson as being active pre first world war with the names recurring up and down the line.

These would tie with the working timetables which have minerals out on the downline and empties returned on the up line (none appear to run through Monsal Dale the other way ... from/to Mansfield/Staveley/Kirkby Sidings/Rowsley Sidings/Tibshelf Junction/Blackwell Sidings / Dunston & Barlow.

There appears to have been some crossover with the lime/limestone traffic and coal where coal came in and limestone out.

In the Buxton area by this time we have the Buxton Limestone Firms group (BLF) but a fair degree of the wagon fleet will have carried their old PO liveries alongside those repainted in the BLF liveries. So we also would have T Bewick/Hill Head quaries/Dow Low lime/Ashwood Dale/East Buxton Lime Co/Buxton Central Lime & Stone (Richard Briggs supplied north so not relevant to Monsaldale?). We then also have Taylor Frith independently.

Other goods would seem to be ....

Cattle - particularly Bakewell .. then Millersdale and Hassop.

Building stone/Millstone/fine dressed stone/Tar Macadam from Matlock/Darley Dale.

Matlock Stone co / Thomas Shaw / T C Drabble / George Boden / Darley Dale Stone / Deeley Stone / Stancliff Quarries / Thomas Beck
.... Not sure which will have had PO Wagons and which used Midland Stock yet.

And Greatorex Macadam PO Wagons

Then there was lumber in and sawn/worked timber out from John Gregory (Darley Dale) - who supplied the wagon builders and George Drabble (Matlock). Rutland Saw Mills (Bakewell)

In addition we have Cotton Bales to the various Mills.
Grain consignments into Hassop from Manchester/Liverpool
suppliers alongside MR were
Bolsover/ Whitewell / Saxby / Plumtree / Bidworth / Grimston / Radford / Farnsfield.

If this overview gets somewhere near the mark, then it should be interesting putting together some of the through trains. Any thoughts on the type of mix that might have been likely between PO wagons and MR would be helpful.

There are also timetabled express goods which I assume may have been passing along the line linking more distant locations.

Anyway ... thoughts very much welcome/sought :thumb
Tim Lee

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Noel
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Noel » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:03 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Some local goods in and out but very minor.


I assume that the Midland had some sort of arrangement similar to the GW Station Truck - one which ran between bigger centres and carried small consignments [less than wagonload] which it delivered to [and collected from] stations en route? If so it would have been in the local goods and loaded from/unloaded onto the platform for staff to deal with.

Le Corbusier wrote:Milk collection and return via the platforms.


If any. How big was local production? Was it enough to be used more than locally? If so, churns would most likely have been carried in the guards van of local passengers, unless the traffic on this line was heavy enough to require a dedicated milk van, in which case it would have been attached to a morning and an evening local passenger, to fit with milking times. In the latter case, any milk vans returning empty churns would also have travelled on the local passenger services.

Le Corbusier wrote:In addition we have Cotton Bales to the various Mills.


So far as I know, virtually all cotton imports came in through Liverpool, or via the Manchester Ship Canal, so, although the Midland had access to both via the CLC, I would question whether Monsal Dale would see much cotton traffic, as most mills were further North.

Le Corbusier wrote:Any thoughts on the type of mix that might have been likely between PO wagons and MR would be helpful.


Probably unanswerable, as each class of train would have been different and each train would have been different each day. Nobody is likely to have the data to say you're wrong, I would think, whatever you decide.

Le Corbusier wrote:There are also timetabled express goods which I assume may have been passing along the line linking more distant locations.


Your WTT should help here with origins and destinations of freight traffic. There may well have been long distance, but slow, coal trains as well, as the Midland had quite a substantial coal traffic to the south, particularly London, which often needed double heading for at least some part of the journey.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:56 pm

I fear you may be grossly overthinking this one, Tim ;)

You have a few nice photos of goods trains. Why not just model those? In any case, you are likely to build up your stock over a long period of time so what is available, what you fancy building etc. may come into play. Truth is, no one can really say what is typical for Millers Dale in 1903. Even if you could, the huge variation would be impossible to model in full, never mind store or use on the layout.

Other companies wagons would appear, not just Midland. All depends where the traffic originated for full wagons or where the wagons are coming back empty from. All sorts of things might originate off the MR itself, like agricultural equipment, hops, tramcars, gunpowder for example (there must be any number of others)
Last edited by Armchair Modeller on Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:07 pm

Thanks Noel .... further thoughts below.

Noel wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:Some local goods in and out but very minor.


I assume that the Midland had some sort of arrangement similar to the GW Station Truck - one which ran between bigger centres and carried small consignments [less than wagonload] which it delivered to [and collected from] stations en route? If so it would have been in the local goods and loaded from/unloaded onto the platform for staff to deal with. I have a photo which shows a goods with Tarif van?

Le Corbusier wrote:Milk collection and return via the platforms.


If any. How big was local production? Was it enough to be used more than locally? If so, churns would most likely have been carried in the guards van of local passengers, unless the traffic on this line was heavy enough to require a dedicated milk van, in which case it would have been attached to a morning and an evening local passenger, to fit with milking times. In the latter case, any milk vans returning empty churns would also have travelled on the local passenger services. The photo's show churns on the platform .... so assume in guard's van or perhaps a fruit and milk van??

Le Corbusier wrote:In addition we have Cotton Bales to the various Mills.


So far as I know, virtually all cotton imports came in through Liverpool, or via the Manchester Ship Canal, so, although the Midland had access to both via the CLC, I would question whether Monsal Dale would see much cotton traffic, as most mills were further North. Purely thinking in terms of through traffic ... unloaded at Hassop for Calver Mill and Cressbrook
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:09 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:I fear you may be grossly overthinking this one, Tim ;)

Of course ... but enjoying it and trying to join up the dots. :thumb

I find reading around the various industries fascinating. The Gas works for instance is very much a historical item about which I had little knowledge .. same for the range of quarry output. I get the feeling that so much more was going on locally on so many more levels than now appears to be the case - or perhaps similar research today might uncover more than expected? The centrality of coal to everything ... which one knows intellectually ... hammers home again and again.

Getting more of an overall picture and understanding will make final choices more confident and perhaps rewarding? ;)
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby jon price » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:01 am

Not sure that overthinking is a valid label. For sure after the common user agreement you could argue for anything anywhere but before this many wagon diagrams were built for very specific traffic flows, and until those flows ceased would appear nowhere else. Similarly PO coal empties will only be seen in a particular direction and on limited routes back home.

What we run when we are "playing" is indeed up to personal preference, but when we make specific statements of date we have to try to be as accurate as our specification, or why bother making that specification. We can use anything we like to fill in gaps in information, but that shouldn't stop us aiming to fill those gaps with knowledge. If a layout is designed to show a range of traffic across a wide geographic location and timespan (ie "North Midlands, 1900-1914", or "somewhere on the Welsh Border, 1918-1922") then anything within that range that satisfies the builder will work, but where a more specific date is chosen (ie Connah's Quay 1906, summer) then this makes no sense if liveries and vehicles that could not have appeared are modeled. This doesn't exclude the possibility of "what if" scenarios, but again these will have an internal logic which we will need to follow.

There is another approach, which I've occasionally seen, but which seems quite attractive, which is to model a piece of plain neutrally scenic, track, and then run all kinds of trains across it, but each train is drawn from a specific photograph or marshaling diagram. Even then a Blue Pullman crossing the up Corridor hauled by Jeannie Deans might stimulate some cognitive dissonance. Whatever we choose to do is fine, but by announcing a specific place and time I think we are also announcing an intent with regard to how specific things will be.

Of course, even moderately specific labels might allow quite a range of possibilities. The layout I havn't (yet?) built is Wirral 1906-1910. Legitimate coach rakes would include complete LNWR, GWR, LSWR (yes), Wirral Railways, WMCQR, and GCR formations. It is a sad fact that examples of all of these are currently sitting in boxes on my shelves.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:44 am

I agree jon.

For my part there is also an element of self education about all of this. Its all well and good saying find some examples of goods trains and have a go at modelling ... but there are two problems with this from where I am sitting.

Firstly, examples are few and far between for pre-grouping at the turn of the century ... so one is very much scratching around.

Secondly, where these exist they are pretty blurred ... so to be able to hazard a guess at the type/nature of the wagons you first need to have something of a background knowledge of the different liveries .... the exercise detailed above is my way of making a stab at gaining this knowledge. All too often if you have been at this game for many years you tend to forget how limited the range of a beginners knowledge can be.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby petermeyer » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:23 am

Would there have been a seasonal local crop out such as sugar beat too? I only say this because such traffic was on my layout being modelled.

Largely agree with the previous two comments too and I face similar dilemmas as I am modelling Summer 1912

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:57 am

petermeyer wrote:Would there have been a seasonal local crop out such as sugar beat too? I only say this because such traffic was on my layout being modelled.


As far as I understand things the farming in the area by the turn of the 20th century had pretty much fully transferred across to live stock with sheep on the uplands and cattle in the dales. Bakewell was the focus of the farming with the weekly market and the annual show. Milk appears to have been a major export of the region consolidated in the Express Dairy building constructed at Rowsley on the site of the old engine shed in the 1930s.

So my instinct is that it was not particularly seasonal as far as the railway was concerned.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby billbedford » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:01 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:As far as I understand things the farming in the area by the turn of the 20th century had pretty much fully transferred across to live stock with sheep on the uplands and cattle in the dales. Bakewell was the focus of the farming with the weekly market and the annual show. Milk appears to have been a major export of the region consolidated in the Express Dairy building constructed at Rowsley on the site of the old engine shed in the 1930s.

So my instinct is that it was not particularly seasonal as far as the railway was concerned.


It would have been if sheep were involved. They would have come off the hill in the autumn and sold at market to be fattened on lowland farms. There is a description in one of the books* by George Ewart Evans of towns in East Anglia overwhelmed by flocks of sheep that had come from all over the country to be sold in the autumn markets.

* and of course I've forgotten which one.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:19 pm

billbedford wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:As far as I understand things the farming in the area by the turn of the 20th century had pretty much fully transferred across to live stock with sheep on the uplands and cattle in the dales. Bakewell was the focus of the farming with the weekly market and the annual show. Milk appears to have been a major export of the region consolidated in the Express Dairy building constructed at Rowsley on the site of the old engine shed in the 1930s.

So my instinct is that it was not particularly seasonal as far as the railway was concerned.


It would have been if sheep were involved. They would have come off the hill in the autumn and sold at market to be fattened on lowland farms. There is a description in one of the books* by George Ewart Evans of towns in East Anglia overwhelmed by flocks of sheep that had come from all over the country to be sold in the autumn markets.

* and of course I've forgotten which one.


Interesting ... Bill Hudson talks about cattle a fair bit, but doesn't really mention sheep?
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Andy W
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Andy W » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:29 pm

Maybe he just had a sleep problem?
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:46 pm

Andy W wrote:Maybe he just had a sleep problem?

:D :D
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:56 pm

A drilling question ... is it possible to get Centre drills for the smaller diameter drills .... .07, .05, etc. If so ... where from? :thumb
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Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:43 pm

I have some very small centre drills which I use almost exclusively for putting the turning centres in the ends of driving axles. I think I got some from Eileen’s Emporium years ago although I have a feeling there was some difficulty when I tried again a year ago. Sorry can’t actually remember! I believe there is a proper designation but I actually just measured across the drill and came out with 0.4mm and 0.6mm. These are quite fragile where the bit meets the 1/8” shank.

Possibly you could also try Hobby Holidays, and an enormous catalogue from MSC arrived the other day and when I go down to the workshop later on will have a look to see if there is anything in there.

Philip

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:06 pm

Thanks Phillip,

That sounds promising.

I found these ... any thoughts?

https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/centre-drill ... gLzrvD_BwE

Tim
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Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:10 pm

Tim, that would do nicely (I would get two at least as they will break!) and cheaper than the ones I found at MSC:

mscdirect.co.uk

Here’s a snap from the catalogue, quicker than typing it all! 0.025in comes out about 0.64mm.

33324613-921E-46F5-A10A-AAC9F06569F4.jpeg

charleswrigley
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby charleswrigley » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:49 am

I sure something suitable can be found amongst Drill Service's comprehensive listing:

https://www.drill-service.co.uk/product ... tre-drill/

Also recommended for ordinary drill bits (a 0.3mm bit that does not bend in the wind!) and next day service too.

Charlie


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