Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

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billbedford
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby billbedford » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:28 pm

John Palmer wrote:On the lamps question I fear we are at cross purposes. I fully understand that the carriage side lamps in question had side pockets and that this enabled them to be mounted on a Tee-shaped lamp iron on the vehicle's end. But the Tee-shaped iron in question was mounted on its side, such that the lower half of the Tee's crosspiece lies below the stem by which the iron is attached to the vehicle. What purpose does that lower half of the crosspiece serve?


There was a horizontal 'platform' at the base of the upright which carried the weight of the lamp. All lamp iron were constructed with a similar piece since the pocket was not robust enough to carry the lamp's weight.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:29 pm

Noel wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:I have been discussing the same subject on RMWeb and the following comparison arose:-


Apart from the figures for the Gladstone, none of the loads shown give the weight of the train, which makes comparisons rather difficult. Coaches of the era could be bogie, 6-wheel or 4-wheel, so tares and loads could differ considerably. A similar problem arises with the goods trains, for the same reason. A 10T coal wagon had a tare of about 6 tons, but loaded would weigh about 16 tons, so a 40 wagon train of empties would be about 240 tons, and loaded about 640 tons. A mixed freight would not produce quite that scale of difference, but would still be well above the combined tare weights with loads included, so comparison by numbers of wagons is not particularly useful.


Agreed, but I do think we can extrapolate from the gpm we are getting when looking at the trains.

The E1 tank travelling at 14.7mph I would suggest is heavily loaded given the low speed. I have assumed that with a date of 1883 the likelihood is that the wagons will be 8T with a tare weight of 5T ... hence the average weight of 11T per wagon.

For the D1, given that its tractive effort is lower than the E1 and given both the speed and gpm, I think it is fair to suggest that the wagons are empty.

Whilst not exactly scientific, I think the sort of ranges of figures I am getting (bearing in mind that they are conservative) actually give me what I am seeking.
Tim Lee

John Palmer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby John Palmer » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:53 pm

billbedford wrote:
John Palmer wrote:On the lamps question I fear we are at cross purposes. I fully understand that the carriage side lamps in question had side pockets and that this enabled them to be mounted on a Tee-shaped lamp iron on the vehicle's end. But the Tee-shaped iron in question was mounted on its side, such that the lower half of the Tee's crosspiece lies below the stem by which the iron is attached to the vehicle. What purpose does that lower half of the crosspiece serve?


There was a horizontal 'platform' at the base of the upright which carried the weight of the lamp. All lamp iron were constructed with a similar piece since the pocket was not robust enough to carry the lamp's weight.

I understand about the platform to carry the lamp's weight. But that's not the question I'm asking. What I don't see is the purpose served by the lower half of the Tee's crosspiece, as indicated on my poor attempt at a perspective sketch below:
Midland T-shaped lamp iron.jpg
Midland T-shaped lamp iron.jpg (15.13 KiB) Viewed 6133 times

billbedford
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby billbedford » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:11 am

Look at the photos in Lacy and Dow again. The "platform" is at the bottom of the upright.
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John Palmer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby John Palmer » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:46 am

Ah, think I can now make out the projection you mean at the bottom of the crosspiece. Thank you, Bill.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Phil O » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:04 pm

I have been on holiday and I'm just starting to catch up with the forums activity since the end of August. All this talk of tank capacity can be a bit misleading, what is the water capacity of the boiler, with a full gauge glass? This will/should be near on full at the last opportunity plus a full tank of water. A boiler works best with the water in the bottom half of the glass, but above the bottom nut. Remember that a good driver and fireman would try and work as efficiently as possible, there would have been very little wastage, by lifting of the safety's that seems prevalent on preserved railways these days. Based on that, that the tank capacity would have been designed to give a range of 25 to 30 miles in average service, stopping for water takes time and therefore money and I believe that the Midland were particularly frugal in that capacity.

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby John Palmer » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:32 pm

That's a bit hard on on today's preserved railway crews, isn't it? Many such are, no doubt, volunteers who don't have the opportunity to hone their boiler management skills over a five or six day working week as of yore.

I don't follow the argument that the boiler's water capacity has a bearing on range. On an adverse gradient you may 'mortgage' your boiler water level to maintain steam for the climb, but eventually you'll need to replace the boiler water so expended by additional water from the tank. Put another way, the water you see in the glass at the end of a run may be different water to that seen there at the start, but over time the same water level has to be maintained by drawing from the tank. If you try to extend your engine's range by drawing against the boiler's water capacity without replacement, ultimately you reach the point where you drop a plug.

I still think the historical record gives grounds for thinking that S&D crews achieved a round trip of about fifty miles from Evercreech up the Branch and back on a single tank filling, rather than the 25-30 miles you are suggesting, though it has to be admitted that haulage of a two-car set across the Somerset Levels is scarcely an arduous task, even for a Johnson tank.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:02 pm

John Palmer wrote:That's a bit hard on on today's preserved railway crews, isn't it? Many such are, no doubt, volunteers who don't have the opportunity to hone their boiler management skills over a five or six day working week as of yore.

I don't follow the argument that the boiler's water capacity has a bearing on range. On an adverse gradient you may 'mortgage' your boiler water level to maintain steam for the climb, but eventually you'll need to replace the boiler water so expended by additional water from the tank. Put another way, the water you see in the glass at the end of a run may be different water to that seen there at the start, but over time the same water level has to be maintained by drawing from the tank. If you try to extend your engine's range by drawing against the boiler's water capacity without replacement, ultimately you reach the point where you drop a plug.

I still think the historical record gives grounds for thinking that S&D crews achieved a round trip of about fifty miles from Evercreech up the Branch and back on a single tank filling, rather than the 25-30 miles you are suggesting, though it has to be admitted that haulage of a two-car set across the Somerset Levels is scarcely an arduous task, even for a Johnson tank.


I accept that I am a complete amateur in this kind of discussion, But it seems to me that weight is everything.The 3 results on the Gladstone (which are directly comparable) I think demonstrates the huge impact the weight is having on water usage and therefore range. The S & D set up is a relatively light loading which suggests a pretty extended range. The Gladstone after all managed 50 miles on 946 gallons with 170 tons.
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:19 pm

I am currently having a bash at building a D299 midland wagon from plasticard using the John Hayes method as shown in his 'the 4mm coal wagon - a step-by-step guide'
I am looking at the below body gear. I have decided to use the Bill Bedford sprung W irons as I have had success with these and like how they go together.

However I am interested in any recommendations/favourites out there for the rest of the gear ... ie V hangers and brake gear/coupling hooks and draw plates/sole plate details (crown plates et al)/leaf springs & axle boxes. At the moment I have some 4 bolt MR buffers courtesy of 51L which I quite like where the housing is white metal with a turned steel buffer.

If anyone felt like sharing there preferences it would be appreciated ... bearing in mind this is 1902 pre-grouping Midland with single side brake gear.
Tim Lee

Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:31 am

Coupling hooks - if these are to be functional my preference is for Ambis as they are a good shape and links cannot fall off easily. If you are using autos, then any brand will do.

Philip

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:33 am

In my recent MR builds, I've used Bill Bedford's etches for brake shoes, hangers and push-rods: the "RCH 9'" pack. The shoe/hanger/push-rod assembly folds up from one piece (with packing soldered in at the shoes and tumbler), so is self aligning and this is vastly easier than assembling from separate parts. I grind off the spare eye from the reversible shoes and also grind the braking faces of the shoes to get working clearance. The hardest job is aligning them on the chassis so that they don't bind on the wheels.

Bill's etch also provides outer V-hangers, levers and guards, but not the right levers for MR practice. The given levers can be bent and filed to the right shape. However, I can't get his lever guards to fold up right (I am clueless with small folded things), so I usually modify 51L parts.

Nice though the Bedford parts are, I'm drawing up some shoe/hanger/push-rod assemblies to be printed. Initially, I need them for 9' 6" wheelbase, which isn't covered in Bill's range. I plan to included alignment aids: holes in the bases of the brake part that align with pegs printed on my baseplate, so that the assembly job is even easier. If these work out, I'll do them for 9' and 10' wheelbase too. I would not try printed levers and guards in Shapeways FUD as they would not be strong enough.

PS: pictures of the CAD for the brake and baseplate parts are now on RMweb: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112952-guy-rixons-shapeways-shop/?p=3320646.
Last edited by Guy Rixon on Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:31 am

Guy Rixon wrote:In my recent MR builds, I've used Bill Bedford's etches for brake shoes, hangers and push-rods: the "RCH 9'" pack. The shoe/hanger/push-rod assembly folds up from one piece (with packing soldered in at the shoes and tumbler), so is self aligning and this is vastly easier than assembling from separate parts. I grind off the spare eye from the reversible shoes and also grind the braking faces of the shoes to get working clearance. The hardest job is aligning them on the chassis so that they don't bind on the wheels.

Bill's etch also provides outer V-hangers, levers and guards, but not the right levers for MR practice. The given levers can be bent and filed to the right shape. However, I can't get his lever guards to fold up right (I am clueless with small folded things), so I usually modify 51L parts.

Nice though the Bedford parts are, I'm drawing up some shoe/hanger/push-rod assemblies to be printed. Initially, I need them for 9' 6" wheelbase, which isn't covered in Bill's range. I plan to included alignment aids: holes in the bases of the brake part that align with pegs printed on my baseplate, so that the assembly job is even easier. If these work out, I'll do them for 9' and 10' wheelbase too. I would not try printed levers and guards in Shapeways FUD as they would not be strong enough.


Thanks Guy,

Interestingly I picked up a Bill Bedford etch at Scaleforum for the brakes and have had a go. For my trial build I have fitted pretty much as is, but have had to chop out part of the base fold up to the brakes to clear bills springing tabs on the W irons ... which seems to have worked ;) . I will post some photos of the build when complete and a critique of mistakes errors made (Its been a steep learning curve as usual :shock: ) ... but would welcome comments/advice/suggestions as well to inform the next try :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:44 pm

I have been enjoying reading John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon. In it he suggests using silver steel tube and bar filed and shaped to form punches to allow the punching out of various shapes from styrene sheets.

Does anyone have a handy supplier of such material? :thumb
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:38 am

Le Corbusier wrote:I have been enjoying reading John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon. In it he suggests using silver steel tube and bar filed and shaped to form punches to allow the punching out of various shapes from styrene sheets.

Does anyone have a handy supplier of such material? :thumb


Eillen's Emporium?

regards

Alan

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RobM
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby RobM » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:01 am

Le Corbusier wrote:I have been enjoying reading John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon. In it he suggests using silver steel tube and bar filed and shaped to form punches to allow the punching out of various shapes from styrene sheets.

Does anyone have a handy supplier of such material? :thumb


Tim, I may be wrong but I have never come across silver steel in tube form. Looking at the various punches in the book you would have to drill and turn your own from round bar due to the variations of outside and inside diameters. The alternative is etches available from Ambis Engineering.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:25 am

RobM wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:I have been enjoying reading John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon. In it he suggests using silver steel tube and bar filed and shaped to form punches to allow the punching out of various shapes from styrene sheets.

Does anyone have a handy supplier of such material? :thumb


Tim, I may be wrong but I have never come across silver steel in tube form. Looking at the various punches in the book you would have to drill and turn your own from round bar due to the variations of outside and inside diameters. The alternative is etches available from Ambis Engineering.
Rob


Unfortunately the ambis etches are not currently available ... nor for the forseeable future. I have sourced some useful ones from Wizard (mainly trains originally) but I am looking to punch the curved ends to the strapping which is all from plasticard. I think stainless steel capillary tube might do the trick (not as soft as brass or aluminium) but at the moment all I can find is shipped in from china. I am sure there must be a uk manufacturer and supply source .... will keep searching :thumb
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby charleswrigley » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:15 pm

Tim, If you are happy to use MJT rocking W-irons, Catalogue No 2299, you may find the requisite detail on the fret:

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2299.php

Regards

Charlie

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:10 pm

Thanks Charlie .... decisions decisions. :(

I have tracked down this from mainly trains which I think is quite good

mt166.jpg
mt166.jpg (47.07 KiB) Viewed 5374 times


The problem is I am now looking at ways to make the bottom curve of the strap and the retaining ring for the strapping here. The punch idea seemed a cheap and simple solution.

strapping detail.jpg


Perhaps Brass will work ok ... I will have to experiment. I have found that using an old 0.3 propelling pencil head as a punch on 0.005" sheet works extremely well for rivet/bolt heads. Maybe I can score cut the curve with sharp dividers and make the ring and peg from .3 wire hmmm ;)
Tim Lee

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:06 am

For bending the washer plate, I predict that if you grip the straight part just above the bend in pliers and haul on the free end with your fingers, then you can readily stretch it to a bend of the right radius. I've recently been doing this with brass strip (for brake levers) and it seems easy enough. The tricky part is knowing when you've got the radius right and for that you need a template. In styrene strip, it will only work for a limit angle of bend before the plastic fractures. Side-knee washer plates should be OK, but when I tried to make axleguard crown-plates this way it didn't work.

If hand-bending isn't working, then you could try heat forming. I once made some curved supports for a wagon bolster like this. I took Evergreen styrene-strip, curved it around a former and secured both ends. In my case the former was a coin glued to a scrap of wood and I secured the waste ends of the strip to the wood with cyanoacrylate a little distance from the coin. I then boiled a pan of water and dunked the assembly in it for about 45 seconds. On cutting the plastic free, it held the curve perfectly.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:57 am

Guy Rixon wrote:For bending the washer plate, I predict that if you grip the straight part just above the bend in pliers and haul on the free end with your fingers, then you can readily stretch it to a bend of the right radius. I've recently been doing this with brass strip (for brake levers) and it seems easy enough. The tricky part is knowing when you've got the radius right and for that you need a template. In styrene strip, it will only work for a limit angle of bend before the plastic fractures. Side-knee washer plates should be OK, but when I tried to make axleguard crown-plates this way it didn't work.

If hand-bending isn't working, then you could try heat forming. I once made some curved supports for a wagon bolster like this. I took Evergreen styrene-strip, curved it around a former and secured both ends. In my case the former was a coin glued to a scrap of wood and I secured the waste ends of the strip to the wood with cyanoacrylate a little distance from the coin. I then boiled a pan of water and dunked the assembly in it for about 45 seconds. On cutting the plastic free, it held the curve perfectly.


Thanks Guy,

That is really helpful. I will have a go.
Tim Lee

CornCrake
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby CornCrake » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:22 am

Hi Tim,
What sort of diameter tube are you looking for?
Along the lines of your propelling pencil idea, have you considered Uni Pin file liner pens as they seem to have a steel tube and are available in a number sizes?
2nd suggestion is to consider using a Silhouette portrait cutter, for example see "Kings Cross? In a cakebox?" -> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127712-kings-cross-in-a-cakebox/.
Ok I know it's not wagon strappings but I am sure you will find the girders interesting!
Steve

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:52 am

Thanks Steve,

The sillhouette cutter is an interesting one .... I wonder how fine it is possible to cut?

In theory you could produce a complete set of artwork for the wagon strapping and cut from .005" and .01 evergreen sheet. Can it cut down to strips of .75mm thickness? Can it cut out tights circles OD 4mm ID 2.5mm and the such like ?

Tim
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:45 am

Thanks Steve :thumb
Tim Lee

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RobM
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby RobM » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:25 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Thanks Steve,

The sillhouette cutter is an interesting one .... I wonder how fine it is possible to cut?

In theory you could produce a complete set of artwork for the wagon strapping and cut from .005" and .01 evergreen sheet. Can it cut down to strips of .75mm thickness? Can it cut out tights circles OD 4mm ID 2.5mm and the such like ?

Tim


Tim, I've cut glazing bars for windows at .5mm including arched windows so I see no reason why you could not cut at .75mm. If you want me to experiment on my cutter I will do so if you could email me a dxf file. I can PM you my email address if you want to go down that route.
Rob
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Updated December 2016


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