Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

[Le Corbusier]

On the front wagon in the photo diagonal strapping starts at the top of the sides and there is no 'V' marking as far as I can make out. Not sure when the 'V' was introduced, but I very much doubt wagon 1 could be a hopper wagon.

As I say ... not really a serious suggestion .... but the only way it could be carrying spar!

...in the illustrated history of midland wagons It suggests that the slightly higher rounded ends where typical of private owner wagons during the 1890s.

[Armchair Modeller]

I tried fiddling in Photoshop a few days ago to see what liveries the wagons carried but with only limited success. The far wagon is definitely MR. The 3rd is definitely BC. Just guessing, but that might be Butterley Company. The nearest wagon may have an identical livery, just painted one plank lower. It certainly looks very similar, but I can't be absolutely sure. I can't make out anything on the second wagon, except a hint that it may have small wording on the sides, rather than initials. So, likely that all are PO wagons except the far one.

[Armchair Modeller]

I forgot to mention that for a substantial fee, we can authenticate absolutely anything. You sound pretty desperate, so here's a taster...

MDMC.jpg

Only joking! The wagon is a hoax, I promise.

[Armchair Modeller]

Regarding the approach roads, have you seen this picture, which clearly shows the new approach slope direct from the mine to the station yard

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monsal-Dale-R ... SwnipWWFqQ

It wasn't there when the NRM photos were taken, but was clearly there later on.

This does appear on the 1922 OS map (surveyed 1919), but not on earlier editions.

[Le Corbusier]

Regarding the approach roads, have you seen this picture, which clearly shows the new approach slope direct from the mine to the station yard

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monsal-Dale-R ... SwnipWWFqQ

It wasn't there when the NRM photos were taken, but was clearly there later on.

This does appear on the 1922 OS map (surveyed 1919), but not on earlier editions.

Yes, I have a copy of this image ... My take is that following the request in 1914 for the new siding and the price being too high, the original public wharf was lengthened to its current length with the raised portion and the direct route into the yard from the mine was put in and the mine buildings enlarged ... I assume sometime in 1915/16 ... though there are no records in the minutes - might it have been done at the mine's expense as part of a single contract?

I have put in an enquiry to see if there are any tariff records still existing for 1902 and 1910 which itemise mineral deliveries etc for the station ... if they exist they will I assume itemise whether there was anything other than coal.

Doesn't affect my 'Cressbrook sidings' plan where there definitely were spar loads taken out from the wharf, but I would still like to see if I can find out.

Nice effort on the private owner wagon .... but I'm afraid no cigar You'll definitely have to work on your lettering and weathering technique

[Noel]

Slightly confused again and I fear being thick again ..... don't these hopper wagons have side doors?

So they do... However, if you look at the drawing of the end view, not only does it show and internal sloped central spine on the wagon floor, but it also shows a slope against the wagon side which would block the bottom of the side door.

Its capacity, as shown in your recent post, indicates it's probably for carrying coal.

[grovenor-2685]

The side doors open outwards so will not be blocked, the hopper bottom end slopes only reach to the edges of the doorway and the 'spin' fits between the two bottom doors. Opening the side door will expose the flat area inside that just comprises the bottom door.
Regards

[Le Corbusier]

I am gearing up to start some detailed plans of the station building/yard/wharf etc. I have a few queries I would appreciate any thoughts people might have to offer about this prior to getting going. I know we can't be certain about these points but some additional thoughts/ideas would be helpful before putting the proverbial pen to paper.

1897 OS Monsaldale Station.jpg

Monsal Dale two chain plan -detail copy.jpg

Monsal Dale-2detaila.jpg

Monsal Dale-11 copy.jpg

Ebay Photo-1.jpg

Ebay Photo-4.jpg

[dal-t]

The 'contraption' by the entrance appears to be a 'stood up' sack barrow. The curved supporting struts are quite unlike the LMS standard (which was based on a LNWR design) but I'm guessing it was maybe a MR style?

[John Palmer]

The 'white disc' (looks to me more like an oval board) attached to the corner post of the box could indicate the condition of the electrical apparatus in the box. Haven't found confirmation that such boards were used by the Midland, but on the S&D a white oval board in this alignment indicated that the apparatus was in order. Using a different colour on the back, such a board could display three additional aspects, each indicating particular fault conditions in the electrics that required the lineman's attention.

[Armchair Modeller]

Can't help you with much, but ....

Ladies toilet was usually in the main station building, men's often outside

The free standing post may be protecting the telegraph post from stray carts?

I thought the small shed might be a goods store too.

The small structure at the back may be for chickens (unofficial, of course)

[Armchair Modeller]

The platform trolley looks like a bog-standard MR type as illustrated in 'Midland Style' p33.

Other MR signal cabins definitely displayed discs as, for example (same book) p54, Crosby Garrett

[Le Corbusier]

Can't help you with much, but ....

Ladies toilet was usually in the main station building, men's often outside

That would make sense as the far end of the station building was the ladies waiting room ... so the extension to the building will be the ladies toilet I presume (I know it was a later addition as there is documentary evidence of there being no toilets when the station was first built )

Monsal Dale20160117_10090560 copy.jpg

I will assume that the outer flat roofed block will be the gents.

Did they often have chickens at stations?

[Armchair Modeller]

Monsal Dale would have been a lonely place with plenty of spare time for the station master between stopping trains. He must have found something to do. The chicken idea was only a wild guess, but why not?

I wonder if the 'toilets' might be rather basic, given the station's location. Would a discreet midden be required?

You can just see the end of buffer stops in that picture - looks like a standard rail-built one. Also the brick wall next to it may be a replacement for what looked like a solid wooden one in the early photo from the signal box?

[RobM]

Re the toilets.....looking at both OS maps, the photos and from what you say about them being a later addition I could interpret the set up as
1. The extension, double pitch roof, may be the ladies accessed from the ladies waiting room.
2. The gents would be open to the elements as was quite normal (chance to model the urinals and plumbing), no evidence of a flat roof from the photo.
3. The mono pitch building could be the gents 'sit down' loo.

Feasible....?
Rob

[Le Corbusier]

You can just see the end of buffer stops in that picture - looks like a standard rail-built one. Also the brick wall next to it may be a replacement for what looked like a solid wooden one in the early photo from the signal box?

From the later photos I think that the track was extended back towards the station at the same time that the wharf was extended with the heightened portion ... I think you can see the extension portion in a couple of the images ... so i think it is a later buffer stop you can see here.

[Le Corbusier]

Re the toilets.....looking at both OS maps, the photos and from what you say about them being a later addition I could interpret the set up as
1. The extension, double pitch roof, may be the ladies accessed from the ladies waiting room.
2. The gents would be open to the elements as was quite normal (chance to model the urinals and plumbing), no evidence of a flat roof from the photo.
3. The mono pitch building could be the gents 'sit down' loo.

Feasible....?
Rob

Thanks Rob,

Whatever the truth that sounds like a good plan to go with .... will give the model some further interest.

Tim

[John Palmer]

A few more idle thoughts...

Chimneys can give a clue as to internal arrangements. The stack with a single pot is likely to be for the fireplace in the Ladies Room. The other stack's 2 pots must be for a fireplace in the staff accomodation indicated by the 'private' sign on the door and another in the middle room of the building, which presumably doubles as a waiting room and booking hall.

I agree with Armchair Modeller about the purpose of the free-standing post.

The small shed might well be the road box store for the aforementioned tariff traffic.

Love the idea of the small structure being for chickens! However, I would have thought a chicken coop would have been larger and made of largely of open mesh fencing, so allowing the poultry fancier walk-in access. I wonder whether this structure may be a bin with hinged roof/door for storage of salt/grit to be spread on road and platform during icy weather. I have a feeling the sun may never have shone on this station during short winter days, given the hillside to the south, and would thus have been in something of a frost hollow.

[Armchair Modeller]

Whatever the 'thing' is you can definitely see inside it - it has an open end. Looks crude and home made, to me.

Mon-box.jpg

The light suggests it is open at the side the red arrow is pointing towards too.

[Andy W]

A dog kennel?

[Le Corbusier]

A dog kennel?

Would a station master have been allowed a dog?
Would the station have been manned 24/7 .... given that the goods trains run pretty much continuously ... or would there only have been the signalman?

Am I right that the station would be unlikely to have had running water pre 1905? So how would that effect the toilet arrangements ... I'm assuming thunder boxes but no urinal ... or would you have a dry urinal occasionally sluiced (waterbut and rainwater?). Up on the side of the hill I can't imagine there would be a well ... but there must have been some arrangement for water? could there have been a pipe and hand pump from the river?

Any thoughts?

[Armchair Modeller]

Monsal Dale was unusual in that it didn't have living accommodation for a stationmaster. My guess is that the station building was only manned to cover for the first stopping train to last, or thereabouts.

The appendix to the Working Timetable would probably tell you if Monsal Dale Signal Box was switched out overnight, or whether it was open 24/7.

Getting water to the station would have been challenging. Unless there is documentation, it is anyone's guess. Water might even have been delivered by train, as it was at some other remote locations in the Peak District. Up on top above the limestone plateau, there usually is no water unless you have a well.

[Armchair Modeller]

Just a couple of thoughts on water supply -

What is the other building in the goods yard for - the old stone shed thing partly buried in the hillside? Also, there appears to be a rectangular building on maps up the hillside opposite the signal box, but still within the railway property boundary. Photos don't cover that bit of hillside. Maybe one or other could be a well or a water tank?

The Midland and LMS did elaborate maps of all its stations for rating purposes. Is there a map of Monsal Dale that could explain some of these anomalies?

[Le Corbusier]

Does Anyone happen to know the issue of Midland Record that carried the drawings of Midland Railway Bufferstops ... I have been through the indexes and can't find reference to them could just be being blind of course

[Armchair Modeller]

There's a kit here

http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/lanark ... te_156.htm