Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:20 pm

Following a certain amount of practice and much picking of other peoples brains on this forum, I thought It was time I started a thread on my first attempts, not just at P4, but any form of what might be termed 'proper' modelling (as opposed to simply playing trains as a boy). The goal in the end is hopefully to model Monsal Dale Station on the Peak Line probably around 1903.

MR Official 1911_Monsal Dale Station 1.jpg
MR Official 1910


MR Official 1911_Monsal Dale Station 2.jpg
MR Official 1910

Beyond some very rudimentary landscape modelling (chicken wire, Papier-mâché and scatter material with lichen) and the building of airfix kits as a boy, my modelling to date has been conceptual architectural models rather than anything realistic.

A little background....

As a boy in the 70s I lived in Great Longstone in the Peak district, enjoyed my model train set and had Slaters (with their wonderful Monsal Dale/Millers Dale O gauge model) as my local model shop. My pride and joy at the time was a K's 'outside frame' Dean Goods locomotive - this had been professionally built and was bought for me by my parents from Slaters as reward for some exam results (a pretty fantastic gift!). Everything else was Hornby running on Peco track. Scenic modelling shall we say was limited.

The advent of University and a parental house move meant the end of the model railway, with the Dean Goods becoming a keepsake.

A couple of years ago I unpacked the loco from a forgotten box and found that it was damaged and somewhat worse for wear. I thought it would be nice to get it running again and clean it up a bit (for old times sake).

DSCN7232.jpg


At the time, for me to do this would have been beyond my skill set, so I contacted a few model makers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) the cost proved too great. I then came across Tony Wright's dvds on metal kit construction and decided to have a go myself.

I picked up an old DJH 'Barney' kit on e-bay with the aim of practicing to see if I could develop my skills to a level where I might tackle the rebuilding .... and so my interest in model railways re-emerged.

The process of building the Barney and where it has lead has been a fascinating journey. I am currently on the third re-build, have discovered P4, joined the society, started experimentation with track building and begun exploring fine scale modelling as a whole.

I thought I would summarise my progress to date in a few instalments and then use the thread as a record of future progress and an area to ask for advice/help/encouragement (family commitments mean that joining a club is not really an option at present). As an aside, I have also begun experimenting with the Protocab control system, which might interest some - I will try to document how I get on with it.

Initially the Barney was built 'straight off' in accordance with the instructions and using only the box contents. I suspect if you had shown me my initial effort before I began, I would have been quite pleased (unfortunately I took no pictures) - but by the end of the process my skill set and eye had improved such that I was far from happy ... so into boiling water it went.

Having read Iain Rice's White Loco construction by this time, I then re-built it with the aim of upgrading the kit (still in OO) with brake rigging, lamp irons, turned handrail knobs etc, and with neater soldering and a squarer more plumb construction. I was reasonably pleased with the results but still far from satisfied. The 'mark one eyeball' had again improved. I was particularly critical of the chassis which didn't appear to fit the body, was crude in the extreme and furthermore my cobbled together rigging didn't quite fit.

DSC_0032.jpg


So back into the boiling water it went!

I was also beginning to hanker after a layout. At this point I started to think about the Peak line, settling on pre 1905 which set me looking at track and track construction (that was quite an eye opener). Initially I considered OO fine scale, which then graduated to EM and ended logically at P4. I settled on Monsal Dale Station as a relatively simple and achievable track plan, with the opportunity to run some varied stock (I love the Johnson locos and Clayton carriages) - and so the fun began

.... to be continued.
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:11 pm

As an aside before picking up the thread again ...

Why P4? Well firstly because I have no layout, no stock and no loyalties, so why not - that is so long as my developing modelling skills are up to the task. Secondly, because to my eye the track and stock simply look better, full stop. Thirdly because conceptually I find something alluring about the pursuit of prototypical accuracy. It is the whole approach to fine scale modelling not just track.

The friendliness, help and encouragement I have received from the society has also been a factor.

Back to the Barney.

With my new found goals the final re-build has now become an experimental opportunity to build a loco to P4 standards. I will then look to paint it in full MR crimson lake livery as a trial run. I have also been experimenting with the main handrail profile looking to mimic the Johnson handrail over the smokebox, rather than the correct highland railway profile. At the end I will be left with a curious mongrel of a locomotive to run occasionally on the layout. At least the build date (1900) just about works.

I managed to source a Perseverance compensated chassis with the correct wheelbase and the matching tender chassis, which has made life easier. Armed with Iain Rice's book on chassis construction, building it has been rewarding. It seems to be running nice and smoothly - though I do not have any complex track works to run it through. The visual quality and detail of the chassis is chalk and cheese compared to my first sttempts.I have also re-built the main bodywork and all is now sprayed up in etch primer ready for painting (I think any further modelling improvements will have to wait for the next kit!).

The chassis now painted
DSC_0341 (1).jpg


Loco primed and ready for paint
DSC_0325 (3).jpg


Whilst working on the Barney I have been researching Monsal Dale (initially concentrating on the locos and stock which ran on the line during my period). The kits which are currently available for these engines are almost universally etched kits (with the exception of a half built 2nd hand Ks Kirtley from e-bay which I am cleaning up and looking at how to develop). In parallel with the Barney therefore, I really needed to work up my etched brass kit building skills. To this end I have a 51L Clayton 6 wheel arc roof 3rd to build and paint (again I thought the task of painting and lining the coach would be very good practice). The coach is all but complete now (another pretty massive learning curve) and primed for painting. The construction, particularly of the windows is a little wayward which I suspect will complicate lining, but overall I think it is recognisable.

Progress photo prior to priming
DSC_0036.jpg


At the same time I have started to look at track work seriously - I needed to build myself (at the very least) a run of P4 test track as an adjunct to the loco re-build. Not to over complicate things from the outset, I started with Iain Rice's booklet on copperclad and successfully soldered up a 4ft run for testing purposes. As a bonus I am now using this to experiment with approaches to prototypical ballasting for Monsal Dale (as can be seen in the chassis images above). The look of P4 wheels running on correct gauged track and sleeper spacings is a revelation! I have used steel rail, and to date (12 months and counting) no signs of rust at all. The spare room I model in must be nice and dry!

However the dratted mark one eyeball has cut in again, and I find I am no longer happy with Copperclad. I spent some time with Howard at last years Scaleforum and have settled upon trying his subassembly approach to chaired track on ply sleepers. Having had a discussion with Chris Gough and a close look at the progression on Cadhay I was further encouraged in this decision So far I have printed out a simple switch configuration in templot and got the sleepers mounted to a trial board. I have started the fabrication of the switch with the crossing v prepared using Brian Harrap's method and the first switch blade planed.

Trial section of track building
DSC_0344.jpg


My first crossing V
DSC_0346.jpg


First Switch Blade - fingers crossed!
DSC_0347.jpg



This project is progressing in parallel with the loco and coach build.

.... next up a spot of airbrush and lining experimentation, both completely new to me. Followed by a few musings on the Protocab system.
Tim Lee

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Russ Elliott » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:32 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Why P4? Well firstly because I have no layout, no stock and no loyalties, so why not

A useful theme for Society PR, methinks.

Armchair Modeller
Posts: 1125
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:34 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:52 pm

Looks like you are making a good start in P4 :thumb

The important thing is to have a go, rather than just procrastinate - and you seem really keen to make a go of it. I am a relative newcomer myself. So far I haven't found anything too daunting - and much is really no different to any other gauge in 4mm scale. If anything, getting smooth running pointwork is easier in P4 because the wheel/rail tolerances are much better defined than in other gauges.

I haven't tried any complicated steam locos yet, but probably don't need to. One of the nice things about the Midland in the period you are modelling is that there were only 2 main types of loco - the 0-6-0 and the 4-4-0. That should make chassis building so much easier. Do keep us up to date on how you are getting on. There are lots of people who read the forum even if they don't contribute much. Many of them are beginners too and will be encouraged by your progress.

All the best with your project. I am sure people on this Forum will jump in and help if you ever do run into problems.

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:14 am

Armchair Modeller wrote: Do keep us up to date on how you are getting on. There are lots of people who read the forum even if they don't contribute much. Many of them are beginners too and will be encouraged by your progress.

All the best with your project. I am sure people on this Forum will jump in and help if you ever do run into problems.


Just to add to that comment, at the last Committee meeting on Wednesday John McAleely our Webmaster informed me the web-logs showed we had recently passed the point of 100 people browsing the Forum at the same time. That will include non-members browsing as guests as well.

Given we remain somewhat of a niche interest, it's a tribute to the quality of the modelling and the debates which take place here that we have so much interest.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:06 am

Armchair Modeller wrote:Looks like you are making a good start in P4 :thumb

The important thing is to have a go, rather than just procrastinate - and you seem really keen to make a go of it. I am a relative newcomer myself. So far I haven't found anything too daunting - and much is really no different to any other gauge in 4mm scale. If anything, getting smooth running pointwork is easier in P4 because the wheel/rail tolerances are much better defined than in other gauges.

I haven't tried any complicated steam locos yet, but probably don't need to. One of the nice things about the Midland in the period you are modelling is that there were only 2 main types of loco - the 0-6-0 and the 4-4-0. That should make chassis building so much easier. Do keep us up to date on how you are getting on. There are lots of people who read the forum even if they don't contribute much. Many of them are beginners too and will be encouraged by your progress.

All the best with your project. I am sure people on this Forum will jump in and help if you ever do run into problems.


Thanks for your comments and encouragement. It is a bit nerve wracking posting up my own first steps for all to see! If it encourages others to have a go then that will be very rewarding. As I mentioned at the outset, all of this is very much breaking new ground for me with everything starting from point zero as far as railway modelling is concerned. I think the only area I might claim a degree of skill transfer might be in the area of lining, as I have a level of drafting ability developed as an architect.

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:26 am

Now on to airbrushing and lining for the Barney and Clayton Carriage.

I have inherited from work a Badger 150 with fine head and a compressor which is lucky - so this will be the tool for my first forays.

I did some research and bought a copy of Ian Rathbone's book and DVD on lining, both of which I read/watched a number of times. I decided the first thing to do was to take Ian's advice and get hold of an old Dublo loco body to practice on - isn't e-bay great (£1.99 plus postage later) ...

Dublo body to be stripped in Nitromors
s-l1600.jpg


It took a few goes to get the hand of the airbrush, but after a weekends practice I had the body sprayed up to a level where I thought I could have a go at lining. The finish is not 100% - the body itself was not as smooth and blemish free as one might hope, and I was a little far away from the model in areas of my spraying so the gloss has come out a little matted - but overall I was quite pleased. I did have to spray up the model with a halfords primer as I found that the paint rubbed off in places with minimal handling. At the same time I sprayed up a couple of flat sheets of metal to practice straight lining on and also to test that the pen was running smoothly and to the right thickness of line before moving to the model.

I am using enamels thinned with white spirit and have gone for gloss (Ian suggests in his book that this is the best surface for lining). On the actual models I will try using an overspray of varnish to achieve the right degree of sheen/matt when all else but weathering is complete. As far as the lining pens were concerned, in the end I ordered a bow pen and a set of bow compasses direct from Haff in Germany ... they are nice objects, not too expensive, and should hopefully last me a life time. I also got myself a couple of super fine sable brushes.

I have attempted to line the body in a version of crimson lake to get a feel for what might be involved. The lines are a little thicker than I will be aiming for in the end, but the goal was to be as smooth and clean as possible. The black, silver, gold and buffer red were all hand brushed. The lining is using a humbrol straw colour (I found Precision's Straw to be too yellow to my eye when set against the crimson lake).

DSC_0331.jpg
DSC_0329.jpg
DSC_0330.jpg


The break through in understanding a process and method which worked for me, was discovering how malleable the enamel is. I found that by damping a brush in white spirit and then blotting, I could push around and also lift the paint as much as needed (after leaving the paint for a few minutes to develop a skin first). This meant that blemishes and blobs could be tidied up relatively easily. It also meant that for those areas that had to be free hand brushed I could be relatively messy in the paint application and then tidy up afterwards.

The other key was to ensure that one colour had dried before applying the next (12-18 hours) I actually found this process to be a benefit as it meant that each piece of lining could be done in bite size chunks and there was no temptation to rush.

The boiler bands were done using a sheet of blank waterslide decal onto which I sprayed some of the crimson lake base colour and then lined in the yellow and black lines. I then cut the homemade transfer as tight as possible to the lining and slid onto the model.

Having completed this experiment I felt I was ready to have a go on one of the actual models and decided to start with the Clayton coach.....
Tim Lee

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:29 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Now on to airbrushing and lining for the Barney and Clayton Carriage.

I have inherited from work a Badger 150 with fine head and a compressor which is lucky - so this will be the tool for my first forays. .


I've had one of those for literally decades (see various prior discussions on here) and I still think it is an excellent tool. The only thing I would say could possibly improve it is a lid for the paint cup, like some more modern brands of airbrush have. That would stop me decorating the workbench, and the airbrush itself, when I knock it over whilst between actively spraying...

Le Corbusier wrote:I did some research and bought a copy of Ian Rathbone's book and DVD on lining, both of which I read/watched a number of times. I decided the first thing to do was to take Ian's advice and get hold of an old Dublo loco body to practice on - isn't e-bay great (£1.99 plus postage later) ...

At the same time I sprayed up a couple of flat sheets of metal to practice straight lining on and also to test that the pen was running smoothly and to the right thickness of line before moving to the model.


And this is exactly how Ian starts people off when they are on his course at Missenden, It seems bizarre, spending the first morning repeatedly lining and wiping off a six inch square of tinplate, but before very long the improvement is significant, as you have clearly found by the quality of what you've done. Nice work!

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
RobM
Posts: 936
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby RobM » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:32 pm

Excellent test piece.... :thumb
Looking forward to when the layout starts. In the 1950's I remember days out at Monsal Head. As a young 'un never took much notice of the steam locos, they always appeared dirty, stained, rusty and noisy, but was always impressed when the clean blue Midland Pullman passed through. Still visit the area regularly, good pub lunch at the Monsal Head Hotel......
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:21 pm

RobM wrote:Excellent test piece.... :thumb
Looking forward to when the layout starts. In the 1950's I remember days out at Monsal Head. As a young 'un never took much notice of the steam locos, they always appeared dirty, stained, rusty and noisy, but was always impressed when the clean blue Midland Pullman passed through. Still visit the area regularly, good pub lunch at the Monsal Head Hotel......
Rob

Thanks for the encouragement Rob

I too have had a few pleasant pints in the Monsal head, though not for twenty years I'm afraid. However, I do mean to return for a research trip in the near future. I envy you having seen the line before its lifting, unfortunately I was too small to remember, though I am reliably told I used to watch the trains from my first home in Cressbrook circa 1965-6 ish.

Here are a few of your dirty rusty noisy steam locos ..... ! :o

E R Morton_19.7.1958_Monsal Dale.jpg
E R Morton_19.7.1958_Monsal Dale Station 2.jpg
E R Morton_19.7.1958_Monsal Dale Station 5.jpg


I would have loved to have seen the magnificent Pullman though.

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:20 pm

... and now for the Clayton coach.

Unfortunately I had the pressure wound up too high on my airbrush compressor, and so flooded a little too much paint on the carriage ends before I discovered the problem - I turned it up to blow the dust of and forgot to knock it back again! :evil: Still, although not perfect I decided I could live with it.

All the straw lining has been done with the bow pen following the lines of the panelling and then tidied up with a 'white spirit' brush. The rest of the painting is by brush. In future builds I will definitely delay fixing door handles and the like until after lining as I had to try and get the brush in and around all the obstructions. I have picked out the bolections in a mahogany colour along with the drop lights.

The wheels are picked out in Indian Red. The roof is perhaps a little dark.

From close in by camera the work is a little rough around the edges (this is partially to do with the build quality) but it does have a rather nice old fashioned model feeling about it when held in the hand.

DSC_0330 (2).jpg
DSC_0334 (1).jpg
DSC_0332 (1).jpg


Now I need to get the buffers and couplings in place, fix in the glazing, get some painted people on the seats and then work out a good way of fixing down the roof - double sided tape perhaps? I don't want to permanently fix it in place as the chassis is attached by two screws from within the cabin - I must change this round next time.

After that I will need to start thinking about lettering and a degree of light weathering .... still time to ruin everything! Choosing the coach as a trial piece has proved a good project to start on I think.
Tim Lee

User avatar
CDGFife
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby CDGFife » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:59 pm

Great to see you making progress Tim. The track and the lining are looking very good -I'm just re-reading Ian Rathbone's book again in prep for the G6 kit that's burning a hole in my bench!

"Unfortunately I had the pressure wound up too high on my airbrush compressor"," - I turned it up to blow the dust of and forgot to knock it back again! " - who has NOT done this at some point!!!! The only time it worked in my favour was in spraying track dirt on a chassis. Having realized the impact on the finish, I flooded more paint on and then blew it off again (another Rathbone tip). The resultant mess looked just right for a weathered loco chassis. Never been able to replicate it since!!

Keep up the postings

Cheers

CDG

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:23 pm

CDGFife wrote:Great to see you making progress Tim. The track and the lining are looking very good -I'm just re-reading Ian Rathbone's book again in prep for the G6 kit that's burning a hole in my bench!

"Unfortunately I had the pressure wound up too high on my airbrush compressor"," - I turned it up to blow the dust of and forgot to knock it back again! " - who has NOT done this at some point!!!! The only time it worked in my favour was in spraying track dirt on a chassis. Having realized the impact on the finish, I flooded more paint on and then blew it off again (another Rathbone tip). The resultant mess looked just right for a weathered loco chassis. Never been able to replicate it since!!

Keep up the postings

Cheers

CDG


Hi Chris,

Hope you are well and managing to get a little modelling done now. Thanks for the encouragement and sympathy ... I've also managed to lose my PTFE washer on the airbrush so it is pulsing at the moment too - thank god for the internet, another one plus spares are on order!

Looking forward to further instalments of Cadhay.

Regards

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:55 pm

An interesting take on prototype research!



I always thought Monsal Dale was a romantic setting .. but :shock:
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:44 pm

The lining of the coach takes me almost up to current date with progress ... doesn't seem all that much for over two years endeavour. I have the Barney sprayed up in the base colour and am starting detailed work.

I attended Scaleforum again this year, and alongside other things spent a little time investigating Protocab as an operating system. My thinking was similar to that for starting in P4 - no layout and no loyalties (I am currently using my old DC controller from the 1970s to test and run in my chassis) so why not give it a go. I suppose I was just rather seduced by the idea of the train running under its own power. I am aware that there is a degree of scepticism and a 'wait and see' attitude towards the system as evidenced by other threads I have read on the forum ... but my thinking is that if no one has a go it will never succeed, so why not me?

If it works it will declutter both the loco chassis and the layout a little. I will just have to keep fingers crossed that their business grows and succeeds - it does help that they are fine scale modellers.

So I took the plunge. I am going to fit the Barney with Protocab and see how we go. I will record progress and thoughts.

REASONS FOR TAKING THE PLUNGE...

The sales spiel was persuasive as far as I was concerned:-

Battery life it was suggested was about 4 hours continuous running at sensible speeds. So the argument was that when running prototypically on a layout, the battery should be fine.

Charging is possible when in the fiddle yard ... and developments are afoot to allow vicinity charging and/or live rail charging ... so potentially a loco could charge in a siding. The batteries are made for continuous top up charging.

They had a crafty justification for battery over mains power. Battery is more prototypical (especially for steam) as just like in a real engine you need to manage your fuel and refuelling. Having a never ending source of power irrespective of speed or range is simply unprototypical. They even suggested that battery level might be read in terms of water and coal levels on later controllers.

The current size of the kit fits comfortably within a tender. I am also experimenting with putting it into a Johnson 1f tank - the idea is that the battery is set across the width tight to the top of the tanks, the chip located on the side of the tank, the motor set up in the smoke box and the charging point in the coal bunker. I think it works.

One thing I did find interesting was that, because the power is from a battery, the range of possible motors increases massively as one is no longer governed by the 12v standard. The idea is that, in the same way as different steam engines have different sizes/power classifications/ranges the same would hold true for choice of battery/gearbox/motor size.

The fact that the power comes from an on board source also means that delivery is smooth and constant irrespective of track condition/pick up etc. The demo examples they had ran very well at very slow speeds with no danger of stalling.

I am told that the chip can be tuned and have additional functionality in a similar manner to DCC.



Anyway I will post my endeavours with the completing of the Barney - painting & lining and the installation of Protocab and take it from there.
Tim Lee

Chris Mitton
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Chris Mitton » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:00 am

RobM wrote:In the 1950's I remember days out at Monsal Head. As a young 'un never took much notice of the steam locos, they always appeared dirty, stained, rusty and noisy,

...but if they'd run proper (ie Gresley) engines, turned out as Tim's finish, you'd have noticed them....
But I agree about Monsal - the walk over the viaduct and then down Monsal Dale is one of our favourites (or better still, vice versa and finishing with lunch at Monsal Head)
Regards
Chris

Chris Mitton
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Chris Mitton » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:12 am

Le Corbusier wrote:.... and then work out a good way of fixing down the roof - double sided tape perhaps? I don't want to permanently fix it in place as the chassis is attached by two screws from within the cabin - I must change this round next time.


Solder a strip of brass (scrap etch?) across the top of the sides, underneath where an oil lamp will go. Drill a small pilot hole through the roof for the oil lamp, then, holding the roof in position and with a small drill in a pin vice drill through the hole to mark a hole position on the brass strip. Open out both holes to clear 14BA. Solder a 14BA captive nut onto the brass strip. In the base of an oil lamp (I guess it's a whitemetal casting), carefully drill and tap a 14BA hole, being careful not to drill right through the top! Solder or epoxy a 14BA screw into the lamp, then cut off its head (the screw not the lamp!) You can then use the lamp to screw the roof onto the nut - easily removeable and invisible. You might need two or three strategically spaced, depending on the length of the coach and the positions of the lamps.
HTH
Regards
Chris

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:18 am

Solder a strip of brass (scrap etch?) across the top of the sides, underneath where an oil lamp will go. Drill a small pilot hole through the roof for the oil lamp, then, holding the roof in position and with a small drill in a pin vice drill through the hole to mark a hole position on the brass strip.Open out both holes to clear 14BA. Solder a 14BA captive nut onto the brass strip. In the base of an oil lamp (I guess it's a whitemetal casting), carefully drill and tap a 14BA hole, being careful not to drill right through the top! Solder or epoxy a 14BA screw into the lamp, then cut off its head (the screw not the lamp!) You can then use the lamp to screw the roof onto the nut - easily removeable and invisible. You might need two or three strategically spaced, depending on the length of the coach and the positions of the lamps.


That sounds an interesting ruse. I will have an experiment with some scrap. I will see if I can tap the brass strip itself to avoid the nut. I wonder how the oil lamps will fare used as hand tight screw heads? - keeping paint on might be an issue. I wonder if they will have any tendency to work loose? - there should be a double element of spring action from both roof and strip to keep them tight.
Tim Lee

Knuckles
Posts: 1189
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Knuckles » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:21 am

I'm in love with your Clayton coach. Rough around the edges you say? If that is rough I'd like to see your neat because it is a work of art....from what I see anyway.

Interested in your Protocab experiments too as I'm thinking of RC or DCC. If RC sorts out sound options as they say then it'll likely be my choice.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:04 am

Knuckles wrote:I'm in love with your Clayton coach. Rough around the edges you say? If that is rough I'd like to see your neat because it is a work of art....from what I see anyway.


That is a real fillup and great encouragement. Thanks ... much appreciated. From proper viewing distance I am pleased ... the magnifying goggles and Camera are less kind!

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1645
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Will L » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:10 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
Solder a strip of brass (scrap etch?) across the top of the sides, underneath where an oil lamp will go. Drill a small pilot hole through the roof for the oil lamp, then, holding the roof in position and with a small drill in a pin vice drill through the hole to mark a hole position on the brass strip.Open out both holes to clear 14BA. Solder a 14BA captive nut onto the brass strip. In the base of an oil lamp (I guess it's a whitemetal casting), carefully drill and tap a 14BA hole, being careful not to drill right through the top! Solder or epoxy a 14BA screw into the lamp, then cut off its head (the screw not the lamp!) You can then use the lamp to screw the roof onto the nut - easily removeable and invisible. You might need two or three strategically spaced, depending on the length of the coach and the positions of the lamps.


That sounds an interesting ruse. I will have an experiment with some scrap. I will see if I can tap the brass strip itself to avoid the nut. I wonder how the oil lamps will fare used as hand tight screw heads? - keeping paint on might be an issue. I wonder if they will have any tendency to work loose? - there should be a double element of spring action from both roof and strip to keep them tight.


I used this idea on some D&S Wisbech and Upwell coaches and it works a treat. There isn't enough meat in a single strip of brass etch scrap for a taped hole. You can add extra layers of brass, but soldering on the nut isn't, the that difficult. Drill the hole slightly undersize, and aline the nut over the hole with a cocktail stick. Finish the job by running the tap through the lot.

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:25 am

Will L wrote:I used this idea on some D&S Wisbech and Upwell coaches and it works a treat. There isn't enough meat in a single strip of brass etch scrap for a taped hole. You can add extra layers of brass, but soldering on the nut isn't, the that difficult. Drill the hole slightly undersize, and aline the nut over the hole with a cocktail stick. Finish the job by running the tap through the lot.


Thanks Will,

I will give it a go .... pity I didn't think to ask earlier - but it should be possible without too much impact on the painting.

Following on from my Protocab musings, I am going to construct my trial portion of chaired track without consideration for power feed or isolation. It won't be required if the system proves successful, and it will allow me to concentrate purely on track construction. I can also have a go at prototypical stretcher bars without the complications of isolation.

The question is, when I come to the track work for the layout should I take the same approach? or should I build with drop feeds and isolation, which would allow me to make the track live at some date in the future if required.

Come what may, if Protocab does prove both successful and viable, then the layout will only be usable by other RC locomotives, which does set up another set of implications (not too much of an issue or worry for me, but could well be for others). Of course my own locos will be able to run on any P4 layout.

All food for thought.
Tim Lee

User avatar
RobM
Posts: 936
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby RobM » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I can also have a go at prototypical stretcher bars without the complications of isolation.

The question is, when I come to the track work for the layout should I take the same approach? or should I build with drop feeds and isolation, which would allow me to make the track live at some date in the future if required.
All food for thought.

Tim,
If you modelled prototypically stretcher bars you would need to provide them with insolation in the event that you made the track live in the future....
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:16 am

RobM wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:I can also have a go at prototypical stretcher bars without the complications of isolation.

The question is, when I come to the track work for the layout should I take the same approach? or should I build with drop feeds and isolation, which would allow me to make the track live at some date in the future if required.
All food for thought.

Tim,
If you modelled prototypically stretcher bars you would need to provide them with insolation in the event that you made the track live in the future....
Rob


Yes Rob - If I decide to future proof ... but for my bit of trial track I shan't bother at the moment. I want to concentrate on trying to understand how to get it as correct as possible in terms of look, then the head scratching will start! I am vacillating back and forth at the moment as building the track with no need to think about power is very attractive on many fronts.

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland pre 1905

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:07 pm

Well ..... I have spent the last week experimenting with lining on the Barney.

It has been sprayed up in Crimson Lake - though the finish is not as good as I would like. Partly due to not cleaning and prepping it well enough prior to spraying, but I think mainly because the PTFE washer was missing from my airbrush following my last clean and before I noticed I had sprayed up the model - so the paint was pulsing.

Anyway I decided upon a scheme for the lining roughly based upon the MR Johnson 1F goods loco ... and then got to work. (The photo's show the engine simply placed on the chassis but not yet mechanically fixed in place)

DSC_0453.jpg
DSC_0451.jpg
DSC_0452.jpg
DSC_0449.jpg


The kit is also suffering a bit from the quality of the white metal casting and the fact that it has been rebuilt so many times. This has meant that the footplate and buffer beam are a little wavy and rough on the surface. The etched brass kits I have should be cleaner and neater (plus I will build them better). But actually when viewed by eye (even at quite close quarters) it does appear sharper and cleaner than in the photos (its funny how in the final image the lining to the front splasher appears out of vertical but in the other images is true - must be a distortion on the camera lens).

I still have the boiler bands and the cab front to line, and some more primary work followed by general tidying up to the cab interior. Then I will need to consider weathering - at the moment to my eye things still look a little toy train-ish.

I have been reading Tim Shackleton's books and watching his first DVD on weathering in the right track series. At the moment I am leaning towards his approach - meaning I shall be looking to weather the engines and coaches as if they have been in service for a good few months but have been cleaned reasonably regularly. So I think below the footplate will be pretty grimy (track dirt/brake dust/oil) as will be the roofs and anything which falls within the smoke and smuts trail. Does anyone know if track dirt in white limestone country would have a whitey grey rather than a brownie grey hue? Perhaps I should try and find some more recent colour images that would give me a steer here. I will also look to get a little detailed weathering on the smokebox/chimney and fire box ... but will try and keep this subtle. When all is done I shall look to unify with a general matt coat (Testors Dullcoat?) and then pick out the areas that would have been cleaned by using a highlight coat of varnish (Shackleton uses Johnsons/pledge Klear applied using a widish flat brush) with highlights picked out as oily/greasy on the running gear. There are quite a few good black and white photos of locos in just this condition in the Essery/Jenkinson series - the goods engines being incrementally dirtier than the passenger engines.

Anyway, that's the plan - so plenty of scope for accidents and mistakes!
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee


Return to “Starting in P4”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests