Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
njggb
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby njggb » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:14 pm

Hi Allan,

Thanks for the compliment about the design of my jig, it was very simple to throw the bits together, I had some tapped M3 hex brass spacers in my collection of bits. The original plan was to check the compensation pivot to achieve a "horizontal" chassis only. Then the steel rule which I placed on top triggered a thought about what you had suggested that Saturday at Dechmont. It needed a slotted plate to be adjustable. Where had I seen a slotted plate recently, etc.

Incidentally the spirit bubble comes from a "Rolson" key ring, bought in a pound shop or "Bills's toolstore" in the Barrows, I don't remember! I needed a spirit level to set up some shelves in my daughter's flat and had not taken one through to Glasgow. It has proved very useful on a number of occasions.

In fact I have enough spacers and the necessary screws to give to the group. The spacers can be readily obtained from Squires as can the M3 screws. I can even supply some spacer tube if it is required. I cannot supply M4 studding. The problem is that the spacer tube needs to be 23.00+ something mm long without modifying the angle sections and the M3 studding needs to be longer.

This jig could be combined with the connecting rod jig. All that needs to be done is to drill another set of 4.00mm holes in the other faces and then the angle sections could be filed along the other edge to give a M3 clear slot. The original 22.00mm spacer tubes, and hence the studding, can be used.

I like the use of the jig upside down to run in the mechanism. That is a trick that hadn't occurred to me. The connecting rod jig provides a nice stable base.

James

JinglingGeordie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby JinglingGeordie » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:01 pm

Allan, I have started to do the angles for the jig which takes the hornblocks and it seems to gone awry. I bought a piercing saw to cut the elongated holes. On the first piece of angle I tried to drill four holes in a straight line but one is obviously askew. That could be centre punch again. I tried to cut two tangents from one hole to the other by dropping the aluminium over the blade and then fixing the blade to the saw frame. That was very difficult. The weight of the aluminium pushed the saw blade to the side and so the blade is nowhere near as taut as I think it should be. I must be doing something wrong. Consequently it was not cutting the straight line it should be. That is the first time I have ever cut aluminium within the area rather than at the edge. However, the second elongated hole is better so maybe it is just practice. Problem is that hole is out of alignment. I have a wee piece of the angle so I think I will bin that one and start again. The ones with simple holes are not bad. I have taken two photographs to show the errors. How does one add pictures? I will look at FAQ. Can't link to images stored on my computer so I will just submit this and have a study at the instructions. Thanks, David

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:32 pm

Hi David, :)

pleased to hear that you are busy working this evening.

If you have marked your slots, but are having a little difficulty in cutting them out then err on the side of the line where the material is being cut out. The slot can always be opened out using a needle file until it reaches the line. A slightly misplaced hole may not be the end of the world either as long as you make the slot correctly. As long as it is possible to slide the sections along the outer guides will keep everything in place.

Adding photographs to the thread is fairly simple.You will find that under the area where you are composing your message there is an options box and an attachments box.

Click on the attachments box. This will reveal two ways to do this. It is possible to upload just by finding the image you want to upload and drag it into the message box. It will upload to wherever you left the cursor flashing.

Alternatively click on "add files" this will open a box to allow you to search for the image you want to use. go find it then click to upload. The photo will upload. When uploaded it will allow you to place the image and also add text if you wish. I think we will be covering how to use the forum at our next meeting, but as you are unable to make it don't worry I will do a little one to one if necessary when you do come over. :)

JinglingGeordie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby JinglingGeordie » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:03 am

Allan, I have some Carrs 188 Solder Paint. It is solder in a suspension. I am wondering whether flux is still required or is the suspension flux?
Thanks, David

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:24 pm

The suspension is indeed flux, you should not need to add any more.
Regards

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Flymo748
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:19 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:The suspension is indeed flux, you should not need to add any more.
Regards


You can need to add more if it starts to dry out...

The third which is left of my original pot was becoming claggy a couple of years ago. Well, I did buy it originally back in the 1980s! It's used here as a photo prop...

Y14 build 25.jpg


I have a feeling it was Brian Lewis himself who advised me to let it down with a little Green Label Flux. Which I did, and it's much better and fully usable now :-)

The trick is to catch it before it sets solid. Apparently if it dries out, the composition of the flux it is suspended in will change, and you can't re-hydrate/liquify it again. Certainly from the scabby crusty bits around the edge of the lid, this seems to be the case.

HTH
Flymo
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:53 pm

Hi David,

Happy New Year!

sorry I had missed your post for some reason, but there is a lot going on at this time of the year! I can't remember whether we covered this during the time you were over working on your chassis, but solder paste is still available as part of Carr's range. Gone are the days when you could buy a large tin of the stuff over the counter as plumbers now use other materials for joints. As Flymo748 and Grosvenor2685 have both rightly said and I thank them both for that, the liquid is flux, however, I was told to use black flux if it dried out, but either type I am sure would be fine. :thumb

I have not put up any contributions for a while, but that is a sign that I have been busy building stuff and I am hoping that after Sunday if everyone brings their locos along we will have time to share experiences and maybe look at what we are going on to do this year. Some have asked that we move on to track construction before baseboard construction and Layout planning which is a little cart before the horse, however I will start to put up something on this over the next month for everyone to use. I photographed all the stages of the three meeting, hands on, track building course I ran for the West Group for their extension (they all built at least two points) and I also have photographs of the track I have been making for my own new layout using a number of techniques which perhaps are less commonly used. Most of my new track is colliery style some with inside keys etc. :) I will also add photographs of a series of experiments I carried out on Grayrigg about 20 years ago now, some successful, some not, :o but it is all to do with learning and perhaps avoiding some of the pitfalls. :cry:

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:14 pm

Hi Flymo, :D

I like the little J15 you are working on,the Great Eastern had some lovely designs and the dark blue livery looked good. Rare to see any Great Eastern models up in this part of the world, although the real thing did come up north during the LNER period - several small tank engines and the B12's of course. There was one J15 worked in Scotland on a colliery line in Lanarkshire. I built one or two GE locos myself for a friend many years ago in 00 including a J17 and an E4.

I am trying to get several engines of my own up and running this week, not all painted, but at least running and the bodies finished ready for painting. Our beginners meeting on Sunday, I hope, will be a bit of an engine "fest" The plan was for everyone to build a loco for themselves and a few have managed to build more than one. We have tackled the most difficult part first, but it will give everyone something to test their other work when they get down to their layouts this year. It has been hard for most of us to find modelling time as all are members of the East or West Groups and are involved in the main group activities, which is fine, as there is no rush or pressure in what we are doing and everyone takes things at their own pace in our little group. The main thing is to enjoy doing something for ourselves.

I hope you have managed to get some modelling in over the holiday period yourself :) and I look forward to seeing the J15 when finished.

Allan

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Flymo748
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:45 am

Flymo748 wrote:
grovenor-2685 wrote:The suspension is indeed flux, you should not need to add any more.
Regards


You can need to add more if it starts to dry out...

The third which is left of my original pot was becoming claggy a couple of years ago. Well, I did buy it originally back in the 1980s! It's used here as a photo prop...


And here is the front view, of which I didn't have one to hand last night:

IMG_2769.JPG


Photo taken to prove that this stuff really can be used for ages, as long as you don't let it dry out, or use it all up ;-)

We really need a solder archivist to say how vintage the pot actually is...

Cheers
Flymo
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LesGros
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby LesGros » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:42 am

Hi Allan, and Y'all,
Following a recommendation from Keith N, I Searched for Nealetin and found the Geo W Neale site; a phone call revealed that the cost for shipping a small quantity would be prohibitive. However, the nice lady pointed me to LB- Restoration from where I obtained a 250 gm tub of ND4 60/40 solder paste for under £20. [telephone order]
It will see me out, but such a tub could be usefully divided up between a small group such as yours.

http://www.lb-restoration.co.uk/cgi-bin ... mmerce.cgi

Happy New Year
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

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Flymo748
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:23 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Flymo, :D

I like the little J15 you are working on,the Great Eastern had some lovely designs and the dark blue livery looked good. Rare to see any Great Eastern models up in this part of the world, although the real thing did come up north during the LNER period - several small tank engines and the B12's of course. There was one J15 worked in Scotland on a colliery line in Lanarkshire. I built one or two GE locos myself for a friend many years ago in 00 including a J17 and an E4.

I am trying to get several engines of my own up and running this week, not all painted, but at least running and the bodies finished ready for painting.

I hope you have managed to get some modelling in over the holiday period yourself :) and I look forward to seeing the J15 when finished.

Allan


Hi Allan,

Thanks for the kind words :-) I went back a couple of years for that picture of the J15 - I just remembered I had used the pot of solder paint as a prop for something...

The J15 (or Y14 in my 1911 period) actually progressed as far as an initial paint job on the loco and tender body:

Y14 build 65.JPG


Y14 build 64.JPG


However I then discovered the joys of painting in cellulose, and have been contemplating a full strip and repaint ever since. The tender chassis came together with some home-bodged axle-bearings, although I really must write the tale up as a morality tale about why this is a Really Bad Idea.

It hasn't moved on much from that state for the last couple of years. In the meantime I've finished the GER CoffeePot, nearly the GER Buckjumper, and ditto an LNWR Samson. However for the last six months I've been very firmly in "restoration" mode, both with vehicles I've been upgrading (or some less charitable may say "should have built better in the first place") and repairing a disastrous episode with my test track, as well as converting it from DC to DCC. Which was not as simple as I assumed it would be.

So I should return to my own blog and post some progress there. I haven't updated it since Missenden, and there has actually been a lot of modelling done :-)

Cheers
Flymi
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Philip Hall
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:34 pm

Paul,

I have to ask, why repaint? It looks pretty good in your pictures. Now, I will not use cellulose, nor in many cases, an airbrush, for reasons relating to a bit of an accident many years ago, so I am biased. But I have seen many fine paint jobs executed in enamels, so unless there are lots of lumps and bumps not visible in the pictures, I'd be tempted to leave it alone!

Whatever you do, it's a pretty little engine, and it will be nice to see it finished.

Philip

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Flymo748
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:16 pm

Philip Hall wrote:Paul,

I have to ask, why repaint? It looks pretty good in your pictures. Now, I will not use cellulose, nor in many cases, an airbrush, for reasons relating to a bit of an accident many years ago, so I am biased. But I have seen many fine paint jobs executed in enamels, so unless there are lots of lumps and bumps not visible in the pictures, I'd be tempted to leave it alone!

Whatever you do, it's a pretty little engine, and it will be nice to see it finished.

Philip


Hi Philip,

It's a fair question, and as I alluded to I haven't finally decided to strip it back.

The key experience for me was painting the little CoffeePot with black cellulose, then lining over the top of it in enamels. It was just so easy to put lovely thin coats of colour down and line it accurately. You saw the results at Scaleforum when you photographed it...

L1060552 PW.JPG


I'll definitely use cellulose wherever possible in future, and with full breathing protection, but maybe the Y14 will persist. I'll see how much of a mess I make of it!

Cheers
Flymo
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SHurst
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby SHurst » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:31 pm

Hi Paul and Philip

On the subject of cellulose paints for models, what exactly is available these days in the small quantities required for such use ?

Not having done any cellulose painting but having in the past seen excellent results and several references to it recently - including yours above - I was under the mistaken :?: impression that "cellulose paint" was now a distinct No No under EU rules. Comet use to sell small jars of cellulose paint several years ago but have not done so for a long time

Your comments, observations and experiences of obtaining cellulose paint in small quantities - especially in basic railway, colours of Black, Maroon, Crimson etc - would be of interest to me and I am sure a few other on the Forum.

Thanks :thumb

Simon

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:33 pm

Paul,

That Coffee pot is wonderful.

Tim
Tim Lee

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Flymo748
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:05 pm

SHurst wrote:Hi Paul and Philip

On the subject of cellulose paints for models, what exactly is available these days in the small quantities required for such use ?

Not having done any cellulose painting but having in the past seen excellent results and several references to it recently - including yours above - I was under the mistaken :?: impression that "cellulose paint" was now a distinct No No under EU rules. Comet use to sell small jars of cellulose paint several years ago but have not done so for a long time

Your comments, observations and experiences of obtaining cellulose paint in small quantities - especially in basic railway, colours of Black, Maroon, Crimson etc - would be of interest to me and I am sure a few other on the Forum.

Simon


Hi Simon,

it's a fair question you ask as there are been many changes over recent years from what I understand. You're correct that EU legislation has shifted the vast majority of paint finishes to a water-based formulation rather than cellulose or enamel.

However in the same way that there are exceptions (and legal ones at that) to the laws on the use of leaded solder, and on the purchase of incandescent lightbulbs, there is still a way you can obtain cellulose paint.

What you need to do is to find your local motor factor who supplies paint to classic car restorers. There is an exemption which permits the sale of cellulose paint where it matches the original type that was used on the vehicle. I'm fortunate where I live as there is a suitable independently owned motor factor only a couple of miles away. I turn up at their trade counter on a Saturday morning clutching an appropriate part of motorbike/car/model train and ask them to mix up a small can of cellulose to match. They will supply this in 250 mL cans which I can then use through an airbrush very easily.

They can actually produce a vast range of colours, probably far more than we would ever need and given the endless debates about "scale colour" then probably as accurate as we ever need as well. I have in stock cans in a basic range of colours of GER blue, satin black, light grey and dark grey shades. The latter two should cover my needs for the basics of wagons, as it takes well on white metal kits.

So I'm sure that colours such as crimson, maroon and cream are all equally easily obtained, for certain values of easily depending upon your access to the motor trade.

Hope this helps,
Flymo
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Flymo748
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:10 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Paul,

That Coffee pot is wonderful.

Tim


Hi Tim,

thanks very much

it's fair to say that the Coffeepot is my favourite model. It was very enjoyable to build, and it's now a delight to see it run.

Indeed I had a short session earlier this evening to debug the wiring I'm currently doing for DCC on my demo board. It helped me locate where the power stopped and turning the board over I realised I'd accidentally swapped to yellow wires over so they were feeding the wrong vees in a three-way turnout.

You'll find pretty much all of the build and painting details on my Beer and Buckjumpers thread elsewhere on the forum. Oh, it's a High Level Kits model by the way and just as much of a delight to build as their reputation leads you to believe.

Cheers,
Flymo
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Philip Hall
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:10 am

Paul,

I did like the finish on the Coffee Pot but hadn't realised how you had done it. I have also used enamels for lining with success, on a rake of four Maunsell carriages which I finished in the fully lined livery before Hornby showed me how much better they could do it! They were sprayed in my 'airbrush using' days with enamel, and I think I left it a very long time before doing the lining. Later on, I experimented with lining inks, in a bow pen, with very good results, which has been my preference since then.

Philip

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jon price
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby jon price » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:07 am

When I search online for "lining inks" all I get is tattoo inks. What are these lining inks you are using?

shipbadger
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby shipbadger » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:31 am

I've just tried 'ink for technical pens' as a Google search and it came up with https://www.curtisward.com/Aristo_Drawi ... GwodqhwCvw amongst others. Don't know if this is the sort of thing you are looking for.

Tony Comber

Philip Hall
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:19 pm

The inks I use came from Freestone Model Accessories - Speed Dry Magic Color. I spoke to Jerry Freestone just now and he tells me that although Magic Color is still available, they are no longer opaque (apart from black and white). He spotted this, bought up all the large bottles of colour he could and is selling them off in smaller bottles. He has a few basic colours left now, as it was a while ago. So worth giving him a call maybe.

He also told me that he had tried Daler Rowney, as these were good quality and were supposed to be opaque, but they turned out not to be really opaque, so that was a no go. The link that Tony has posted looks promising; Jerry told me that the 'Meccanorma' drawing pens he used to sell were made by Aristo, and I think he might now sell Aristo pens. He hasn't tried those particular inks, though, but I think they look good, as the website says that they are of high opacity. I think they would be worth a try, as they look to be very much the same thing.

I did use the inks in the drawing pens, but found that they tended to dry out eventually. I needed to line or draw something only occasionally and found that they were difficult to flush out. That led me to try them in a bow pen, and I had very good results. Being acrylic, they do dry out in the pen more quickly, but a bow pen is easy to clean out. I have a mind to try one of the acrylic retarders sometime which might work with the inks.

Philip

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:13 pm

I must say how much I am enjoying this little diversion chaps, because on Sunday we will probably be having a conversation around the table with our newly built locomotives all about locomotive painting and painting techniques. All that has been put on here, although probably most think it may be irrelevant to the Livingston Starters topic, turns out to be not the case at all and is most welcome. :D

Thanks Flymo for showing the locos, lovely, and everyone else for their comments. Les the source for solder paint is also maybe going to be useful for our little group as we are going on to track construction over the next few sessions. :D I use a combination of part soldered construction and part chairs and solvent on wooden sleepers as will be seen in due course. The members of the group spent time making a set of jigs and I sourced all the materials beforehand so that we could all get of to a good start.

I will post what we are doing as part of this thread, rather than, under "track" as the idea of the thread was to show others what we are doing and to encourage other similar groups who perhaps are under way and might want to use some of the techniques which are a mix of old and new.

There is no grand design in what we are doing by the way, it really is a mutual encouragement group similar to the early days and all sorts of things will go on I am sure. People will be trying out new things for themselves, so despite there being some sort of a program it is not prescriptive in any way.

At the beginning we had a run by of various locomotives and a competition for everyone to work out which form of suspension each locomotive had, by the way it moved etc. which was very revealing. At our first meeting I had suggested that there are some kits that are simpler than others for starters as well as some quicker than others to get working, but most have started building what they had to hand and have tackled kits that are perhaps a bit more advanced for someone building a first engine. Most now have a first loco, or two and it has encouraged me to get on with a few locos needed for my own new railway as well, which is all to the good. Once we get down to our individual layouts I am hoping that each member will start a layout thread of their own and hope that they will pick up and exchange ideas more to their own needs from the wider experience this forum allows. I expect this to start happening later this year although Chris has already a well established thread for his own layout.

I have been asked to make up an index for the locomotive building threads which I have been putting out over a period of time, so I will try to do this, but I do want to finish the threads first, which should be possible over the next month or two. :)

Happy New Year everyone! :D

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Andy W
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Andy W » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 pm

Allan, it's highly commendable that you are encouraging so many to get stuck into building locos. Well done.
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:39 am

HI Andy, :D

We are having a meeting this afternoon and I hope to post some photographs tonight of what people are building - the initial thought for the group was to dive in at the deep end and produce at least one loco each - the thought being that if everyone managed that they would gain confidence in tackling one of the more difficult things and also give them something to test out their other work as it developed.

We will move on to making track even before baseboards, again for the same reasons. I can always give people a loan of some stock for their layouts as a temporary measure until the basic track work is laid and tested then we can look at control/mechanics and electronics/electrics. I am hoping we may have a few operable layouts by next year at this time, but we will see. Stock and scenery will be covered in due course.I am hoping that within a three year period there will be a few layouts worth looking at.

Although I am doing this with the group, the focus is on them as that's what it is all about. However I have started on my own new layout. It is coming along and I am into cutting aluminium for baseboard frames at the moment and trying to get the Barclays finished off - so there will be plenty to put up on the web in a couple of months time I hope, but most of it will occur under a separate thread. :)

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Livingston - West Lothian Starters Group

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:05 am

We have been meeting once per month throughout the year and just to give a feel of our meetings here are a few photographs taken in my workroom. There is enough workbench for a group of about 5/6 to work away over an afternoon. Individuals coming over for an occasional afternoon/day to allow for catch up or to be able to progress with some help.

This thread has been used to disseminate information to the members of the group. This could be tools that members were unfamiliar with and their use, or help with making the jigs and other additional uses of the jigs beyond what I posted under the West Group build a loco threads. The main aim has been to develop the skills needed to build a working locomotive as a starting point. I know that the normal suggestion is to buy a diesel and fit some wheels and we are off, however most of the lads are steam enthusiasts and I think that building a loco chassis that works will develop skills that can be used for all the other aspects of layout building, will give them a sense of achievement and give confidence to tackle any other aspect of construction.

It has also been a lot of fun :D and and much learned :idea: from one another and in many ways since it is all new to most of the group it has something of the sense of adventure that the early groups had back in the 70's. I am sure that other starters groups will have something of the same character and feel. We took some photographs of the engines at their present state this afternoon and I will put them up here tomorrow. WE are now thinking about paintwork and finishing as well as going on to track construction for the next few meetings.

Here are some photographs taken at some of our working meetings over the last couple of months. :)

DSC06160.JPG
Chris sitting working on his Perseverance chassis for an M7 - 0-4-4T locos are notorious for being tricky to get running properly


DSC06159.JPG
James at the workbench demonstrating how the jig I designed for making coupling rod sets can be used to test the amount of weight and its placement. Jim is also using a small controller which he built using a Merg kit.
Attachments
DSC03599.jpg
A typical discussion going on as a process is demonstrated, Phil and David look on - all photographs thanks to Dave Goodwillie
DSC03599.jpg (102.04 KiB) Viewed 3227 times
DSC06161.JPG
Bruce making up a number of horn guides with the intention of using springy beams on his chassis


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