Comments on West of Scotland Group's "Starter" Build a loco project 3

[Terry Bendall]

I did not want to interrupt the flow of Allan's very helpful series so a couple of comments and questions as a separate thread.

I have been using various blocks of word for soldering and other construction jobs for a long time and now have a 2 litre ice cream tub of various sizes that I find useful. I know where they are and what is in the box so it is easy and quick to find the pieces that I need. However the ideas of a base with two pieces fixed at right angles is a new one to me and avoids having two or three loose pieces. I can see one of these being made quite soon.

A question about the paper clip Allan - does it absorb the heat too much? When I am using anything made of metal I often put a piece of thin wood between the work piece and the metal to avoid loosing heat. It would probably be possible to glue a piece of thin ply to the faces of the clip.

Having the soldering board held is a vice is useful and it also means that it is a bit higher up. I find that bending over a workbench is a bit tiring and one of my wooden blocks is a 6 inch cube which brings things a bit higher.

I notice that Allan suggests the use of a try square to hold things when soldering. Any problems Allan with flux causing the square to rust or do you not use corrosive flux?

There is lots of helpful advice in this series, as there was in the previous ones, and I am sure that even those who have been doing scratch building for a long time will learn something new.

Terry Bendall

[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Terry,

One of the nice things about the fourum is that people write about the things they actually do and that it is not all theory. Theory is all very well and we have an abundance of those who are good at that, but not so many who actually get things to work, or who are honest about that. There seem to be a good number of practical modellers on the fourum and that's why I am happy to spend time doing this. Being a very practical man yourself I am pleased to say I did learn a few new things from you when you were up this end of the country and I appreciated your visit very much.

Using the paper clip to clamp metal temporarily in place I have found very useful over the years and I have not noticed loss of heat using this arrangement. It does hold things very firmly. In fact, far less heat is lost than holding something in a vice. I like the idea of perhaps fitting the clip with a slice of 1 mm ply would save even more heat, especially when working in brass - however I tend to use N/S sheet most of the time, unless I run out and switch to using brass.

As I am sure you are aware residual heat from a previous hot joint helps speed up the heating of the next joint say- at right angles and you can move on quicker - maybe not to be reccommended for the beginner, but I like to get a move on. My quickest scratchbuild from beginning to painted/lined was 6 days when I was trying to get the first Burntisland shunter ready for the competition all these years ago.

My father's old engineers tool chest holds all my little jigs and the block. I pretty much only ever use the block during construction as you will see as it covers most needs. The only exception would be to roll a boiler - which I am not going to cover in this series as it is perhaps not something I would recommend for a first loco, the second one perhaps.

My second locomotive was a NBR Y9 which had to be scratch built as there were no kits for them at the time, which is still the case - It is still running and has been one of my favourites for all these years. Someone turned up at a show one time (I think about 1979) and said was it OK if they brought their Y9 along to run on Dubbieside and of course I said yes, being intrigued since I had not seen another one run! The chap turned up the following day with his engine and asked if I had a long wagon. I looked out a plate wagon and put my Y9 on it. He asked me to close my eyes and when I opened them again there on the wagon sat an N gauge North American class Y9 - which had a huge number of wheels compared to my little 0-4-0ST A nice moment however - the only other Y9 ever to have been on Dubbieside.

You were asking about using a square when also soldering - I do clean it and also keep it in a polly bag to keep it clean in beween. A quick wash with soapy water and a dry down is enough to clean off any flux that may have spluttered its way - I tend to solder a distance away from the square and do a check once the first tack has been made - I will put a bit into the text to cover this - a good point Terry.

[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Terry,

Just thought I would mention that I have started a "Starters" group up here which has had its first meeting. It is not a beginners group as such, as some of the members have been members of both the East and West of Scotland groups for many years. The point is that they are all people who want to build a layout at home for themselves. I have about 12 people that have shown an interest so far and it looks as if we will have to maybe form two sections. I am hoping to bring up peoples skills so that they will be able to tackle anything within a couple of years.

This will enhance what we do in the East and West Groups, or at least that's my theory. It may also lead to a number of layouts available for shows over the next few years, but I don't want people to be working under pressure - they have enough of that with Burntisland etc. The emphasis will be on craftsmanship and getting things to work and maybe avoiding some of the pitfalls in layout construction.

Some of the lads are wanting to do a test track first of all and most want to get at least one good working loco to test the track with. I have been running a track making workshop for the West Group which has produced some very good points from everyone. Only thing was we were short of punches and a lot of sharing has been necessary. I know that the stores have not had any available for quite some time. Someone recently mentioned that you may be making some new punches for punching sleepers for Brooke Smith riveted track - I have a feeling that we would be interested in putting in an order for a number of these Terry if you are planning to do so.

It may be they are available for S4 elsewhere, but I am not aware of any as such - maybe the EM gaugers have an 18.2 one which could perhaps work. Someone out there may have bought one and know that it works.

[grovenor-2685]

I have not seen a punch that produced two holes at a time since the original Studiolith ones. All the more recent punches have just made one hole at a time. (Plain sleepers being pre-punched). So the punches are not 18.83 or 18.2, they even work for 16.5.
That said most current topics talk about drilling the holes, not something I would want to do except for very small numbers!

That said, i thought most 'starters' would now go for functional chairs in scenic areas at least. Rivets are not cheap anymore so having to buy both rivets and chairs is pushing the costs up quite a bit.
Regards

[Allan Goodwillie]

That is interesting, the early ones allowed both single and double options with the one tool. The double punch was very useful for point building as you could be sure the distance between the rails would remain the same. It also took half the time. However it is possible to buy single punches on the internet with a 1.2mm punch. You still have to judge the centre of the sleeper using one of these however.

I agree that drilling out is tedious, but I still prefer to use rivets at key points so that adjustment can be made once laid.

I have been through all the options on my experimantal layout Grayrigg (which is in a garage location and therefor can suffer from a wide range of temperatures) with very mixed results. I will go into this maybe when I get working with the new group and will probably write up something when we do. I first tried the point kits back in 1980's when they could be bought via Alan Gibson. I stocked them at Melrose in the museum.

The West Group have been building points using a method which I know uses the best of both worlds and that I am happy to recommend. I am less worried about cost, more interested in getting a strong solution which will also allow for alteration when laid if necessary and which will work at a range of temperatures and not give problems at exhibitions. Considering the cost of point kits nowadays - the option of building using both rivets and chairs is still more economic. It is not the case that I use masses of rivets. Dubbieside was built using rivets and white metal chairs back in the 70's and has remained robust since. I ran it and resoldered and regauged if necessary, until I was sure all operated well before adding chairs and the time spent doing this was well repaid over the years.

[grovenor-2685]

That is interesting, the early ones allowed both single and double options with the one tool. The double punch was very useful for point building as you could be sure the distance between the rails would remain the same. It also took half the time.

I agree entirely, although the time saving was offset by the need to unscrew and reverse the tool between punching the double holes then finishing off the remaining singles, and same again with the rivets. With the single punch you can just feed the 12" timber strips through and keep pressing.
My original punch was one thing that I never recovered after by stay overseas, by then the replacement was the mark 2 with single punches, overall I think it was better.
Regards

[Allan Goodwillie]

Yes, one nice thing about the Mk. 2 was the fact that it was also very good for putting loco wheels on to axles - I regret passing my one on to a friend who was in desparate need of such a thing for his own track making. Still a very useful item, because of the wheel press aspect, better than using a vice as it was very contolable and no where near the cost of a lathe. I also had one of the other type so had the best of both worlds really. However another friend has passed on another MK.1 for me to use and I appreciate the fact that I have this as it has been a boon during the trackwork sessions.

I would like to get hold of a MK. 2 sometime - something I have looked for on the second hand stand at Scalefourum and S/Nth for years now, but they don't seem to come up unfortunately.

[David B]

Returning to Terry's comments on using blocks of wood for soldering, I have tended to avoid soldering on wood as you can get burned resin on the etch. I often use a ceramic tile, especially if I am tinning pieces like overlays whilst they are still on the fret. The advantage is that the tile can be wiped clean; a disadvantage is that it can act as a heat sink unless you warm it up first! Nevertheless, I have found a ceramic tile very useful and use it with my RSU as I use a croc clip rather than a metal plate.

[Terry Bendall]

Allan's latest post on his building thread about filling the gap between side tanks and the boiler was also discussed recently on the forum of the Brighton Circle - the group for those interested in the LBSCR. Looking at a range of pictures it appears that Brighton practice was to fill in the gap all the way along with what looks like a continuation of the top of the tank, rather than a separate piece of metal. On some of the larger tank locos, such as the I class variants which had a sharp top edge it looks like the top on the tank is set down by an inch or so. This area was often used for storing fire irons and spare loco lamps and some locos were fitted with lamp brackets for that purpose. The fact that in some instance the bottom of the lamp cannot be seen suggests that the tank top is lower then the top of the sides. The smaller classers had a rounded top edge so this would not have been possible for those types but some of those also had lamp irons fitted - a nice detail to model.

It does however illustrate the need to get as many pictures of the loco you are building as possible and as Allan says, the standard side on and 3/4 views often don't show all that you need.

Terry Bendall

[Terry Bendall]

Doug has commented on Allan's method of parting off. If the part to be separated has a hole through it, a useful tip is to hold a piece of wire of suitable size in the tailstock chuck and push it into the hole. This allows the component to be parted off but it is then held on the wire and cannot be thrown off. This avoids possible damage but even more usefully avoids the risk of the part that you have carefully made getting lost in the swarf or projected to the far corner of the workshop, never to be seen again. This will be another thing that I will include in my demo at Scalefour North.

Terry Bendall

[Allan Goodwillie]

Thanks Terry,
Good idea about using a suitable piece of wire. Something I have never seen demonstrated, pick up something all the time! I have a batch of photographs which I could publish on the site for those who may want to have a go at building a similar locomotive.

[John Palmer]

When parting off very small tubular items, I sometimes reverse mount in the tailstock chuck the drill bit used to make the bore, such that the shank is protruding and can form a journal on which the workpiece runs. Not only does this prevent loss of collars, etc, that may be only fractions of a millimetre long when parted off, but it can also provide support for the workpiece when taking a cut. On occasion otherwise I find that a slender workpiece gets deflected by the tool and a shallow taper generated.

When grinding a parting tool I always try to ensure side clearance on both sides, as shown in the attached, which also illustrates how I angle the cutting point in order to minimise the ‘pip’ by cutting the ‘back’ of the component first. I find that without such side clearance the tool may have a distinct tendency to deflect sideways, leaving a taper on the rear face of the piece being parted off.

Parting tool.jpg

I tend to make liberal use of the leadscrew's indexing capability. To make a piece of a certain thickness I first measure the thickness of the parting tool with the micrometer, touch the tool against the front face of the workpiece, then index forward by the thickness of the component required plus the thickness of the tool. Provided the touch of the tool against the front face of the piece is sufficiently light, I find this a reliable means of positioning the tool to part off a piece of the thickness desired.

I suspect some of my machine shop practices may well send the purists’ eyebrows in a northerly direction, but I can only tell you what I have found works for me!

[Allan Goodwillie]

Thanks John,
I am no expert in the use of the lathe, do not intend to suggest otherwise and have simply picked up things as I go along. Having a parting tool with the slope the other way I can see is useful and the undercutting you describe and have taken the trouble to draw out is most welcome It is probably about time I bought a few more tools from Eileen's - Scalefour North is coming up. Sometimes you work with the same tools for years and buy the same item as a replacement. I bought a replacement soldering iron recently which cost a little bit more than the normal (Antex 25W) because it had a flex which was less likely to be damaged with heat, however I discovered that the flex was also much more flexible and therefor much more pleasurable to use as a result. If Terry is going to do a demo I will try to be at that - he gave an excellent demo for the East of Scotland Group not so long ago.