Starter question - track work

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:46 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:The first two places I would look are "Midland Record" and "Modellers Backtrack".
Regards


Thanks Kieth,

I don't have easy access to Midland Record .... though I did manage to pick up a copy of the issue on the Midland Signal Boxes .... however trawling through the various indexes on line .... there doesn't seem to be anything specific relating to track work and specifically switches. I have got hold of the modellers Backtrack issues as recommended by Martin that deal with track work ...

Looking at my references, I see that there was also a series of articles in Modellers' Backtrack
Volume No.1
Number 2 June/July 1991 Making Tracks
Number 5 December 1991/January 1992 Making Tracks part 2 Early Midland Railway permenant way
Volume No.2
Number 3 August/September 1992 Making Tracks part 3
Volume No.3
Number 1 April/May 1993 Making Tracks part 4
Volume No.4
Number 2 June/July 1994 Making tracks part 5 Switching trains


but again ... whilst being very helpful and interesting, their are no close up images or descriptions of Midland switch and stretcher bar arrangements.

Hopefully somebody may have a picture within their collection which might be suitable.

I have a copy of 'Through Limestone Hills' which is very helpful generally (and has a nice piece on Mensal Dale Station), but most of the images are much later than the period I am going to model. Bob Essery in one of his MRJ articles on track work did illustrate (with a couple of different photos) Midland track that was ballasted over the top of the sleepers .... one was labeled 19th century, the other dated 1876. He stated that the 19th century practice was to cover the sleepers and he was uncertain when the practice stopped. As I am hoping to model pretty much on the cusp (1900) I was uncertain whether the ballast would have been removed from the sleepers by this time or not.

Regards

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 3033
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:43 am

Le Corbusier wrote:Getting a little more into the meat of things I have another photo-type question which I hope someone will be able to point me in the right direction on.

I am starting to think a little about the stretcher bars on the switches and attendant gear. Would anyone either have or know where to look for period photos of these for the Midland circa 1900 ish.


There are probably a number of books around that a Midland expert could point you towards that will give suitable images. However I have recently picked up cheaply from Ebay this:

"Midland Railway Portrait" by Peter Truman & David Hunt, published by Platform 5/Foxline Publishing.

http://www.transportstore.com/Truman-Peter-Hunt-David-Midland-Railway-Portrait-Book-2405-660.cfm

Whilst it is not a specialist themed book - it has the usual chapters of Stations, Locomotives, Goods Trains, etc - it appears to have exclusively pre-Grouping photos ranging from the 1860s to 1922. As such, I feel that it's much more useful than many of the publications that actually fill their pages with LMS and BR images under the guise that the subject was once Midland. [criticisms of the same approach for other pre-Grouping companies are also available...]

It's also very good for looking *beyond* the main subject of the photo for all of those little details in the background, whether it's hand-barrow, point levers, or whatever.

HTH
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:30 pm

Flymo748 wrote:There are probably a number of books around that a Midland expert could point you towards that will give suitable images. However I have recently picked up cheaply from Ebay this:

"Midland Railway Portrait" by Peter Truman & David Hunt, published by Platform 5/Foxline Publishing.

Whilst it is not a specialist themed book - it has the usual chapters of Stations, Locomotives, Goods Trains, etc - it appears to have exclusively pre-Grouping photos ranging from the 1860s to 1922. As such, I feel that it's much more useful than many of the publications that actually fill their pages with LMS and BR images under the guise that the subject was once Midland. [criticisms of the same approach for other pre-Grouping companies are also available...]

It's also very good for looking *beyond* the main subject of the photo for all of those little details in the background, whether it's hand-barrow, point levers, or whatever.


That looks very interesting, .... based on your description I shall definitely get a copy .... the fact that all the images are pre grouping is enough in itself.

Thanks

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:04 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
"Midland Railway Portrait" by Peter Truman & David Hunt, published by Platform 5/Foxline Publishing.


Am now in possession of "Midland Railway Portrait" .... excellent book - thanks

Tim
Tim Lee

dal-t
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby dal-t » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:00 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
... it's much more useful than many of the publications that actually fill their pages with LMS and BR images under the guise that the subject was once Midland. [criticisms of the same approach for other pre-Grouping companies are also available...]

Flymo


Although I recognise the irritation, with increasing age occasionally comes greater tolerance, and my current thinking is if it's a choice between LMS livery or nothing, I'll take the after-'23 evidence that is available. If only more photographers had had the sense to point their pre-grouping cameras at L&NWR subjects (and not just locos)!
David L-T

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 3033
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:46 pm

dal-t wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:
... it's much more useful than many of the publications that actually fill their pages with LMS and BR images under the guise that the subject was once Midland. [criticisms of the same approach for other pre-Grouping companies are also available...]

Flymo


Although I recognise the irritation, with increasing age occasionally comes greater tolerance, and my current thinking is if it's a choice between LMS livery or nothing, I'll take the after-'23 evidence that is available. If only more photographers had had the sense to point their pre-grouping cameras at L&NWR subjects (and not just locos)!


Oh, I so agree with you... I was idly flicking through LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 last night. There's a diagram there that only one wagon was built, in 1906 and converted to something else in 1909, for the purpose of being an experiment in carrying empty barrels.

One outline diagram, no photos, and not much else. At least there is a running number so you can have that accurate. Put that on your layout and see who complains (actually, I might...)

However if you do take the good pre-Grouping photos and dissect the backgrounds, a lot of useful information can be obtained from the periphery. That's how I'm finding research.

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work - Ballasting

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:55 pm

So ... thinking a little more about ballast at the turn of the century .... and having dug up a few period photos -

Image
Image
Image
Image
ballast 5.jpg


Would I be right in making the following assumptions.

1. The sleepers are pretty much sunk into the ground set flush with the ballast.
2. Between the platforms there would appear to be a level track bed with very fine gravel ballast as a top layer but not particularly loose (no idea what's beneath but appears hardcore like).
3. For the siding/wharf - what appears to be compacted ash/coal dust etc almost like a hardcore with sleepers flush and sometimes covered.
4. Track bed outside the station - much as in the station with only a very slight chamfer to the ballast edge ... leading into the verge.

Thoughts would be appreciated

Tim
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Tim Lee

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work - Ballasting

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:25 am

Le Corbusier wrote:So ... thinking a little more about ballast at the turn of the century .... and having dug up a few period photos -

Image
Image
Image
Image
ballast 5.jpg


I am currently looking at the practicalities of ballasting. does anyone have any guidance as to the best way to achieve the type of ballast in the photos above .... not so much the mix which I am experimenting with but the method of laying .... process/type of glue etc . It would be goods to have a feel for how others achieve the effect.

Thanks

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
CDGFife
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby CDGFife » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:07 am

On Cadhay I glued sleepers/timbering and ballast in the same operation. Neat PVA spread onto the template and sleepers/timbering positioned, followed immediately by the ballast. Once the glue had dried (overnight) the loose was hoovered off and re-cycled. A second sweep of ballasting was definitely required to patch the sparser areas (positioned with a small paintbrush and fixed using dilute PVA and a pipette) but I found the whole process was faster and much less fiddly than ballasting after the track has been laid as I'd done on my previous layouts.

The sidings area on Cadhay has, in my view, similar ballast texture to the fine ballast shown in most of the photos above. For this I used a topping of mainly Carr's Ash Ballast [I know the apostrophe is incorrect but it's what is on the tub!] with only a little Woodland Scenics Fine Ballast added. Varying the ratio of ash to fine ballast gives a finer or courser look.

Cheers

Chris

Alan Turner
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:43 am

Ballasting at the same time as track laying is really the only way to achieve the look you are after. It does however rely on the use of thin sleepers.

It won't work if you use thick sleepers.

Also you need a fairly generous bed of PVA for the ballast to soak into. You need to experiment to determine what is actually required for your purposes.

regards

Alan

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby David B » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:26 am

Alan Turner wrote:Ballasting at the same time as track laying is really the only way to achieve the look you are after. It does however rely on the use of thin sleepers.
It won't work if you use thick sleepers.


Why do you say this about using thick sleepers, Alan?

At Missenden, Norman Solomon does a track-laying demonstration where he lays the track and ballasts in the same operation. With him it is a 'blink and you miss it' job he is so quick. He spreads PVA on to the track bed, places the track and pours the ballast on. On his demonstration bit, he waits a few moments then tips off the surplus, not so easy with a baseboard!

jasp
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:24 am

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby jasp » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:29 am

That is, essentially, Norman Solomon's method.
He does, however, advocate using the type of pva used as a cement additive as it retains a degree of flexibility, unlike the conventional stuff which sets rock hard
Jim P

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:22 pm

I am currently experimenting with a bit of copper clad as a test track - to be followed by a piece of timbered and chaired track.

The issue I am confronting is the required depth of ballast. In the photos above the sleepers are pretty much set in flush with the top of ballast ...and the ballast is a pretty fine mix. Simply coating the base between the sleepers doesn't bring the ballast up flush with the tops of the sleepers - even using fine timber sleepers.

I am interested in the use of 'builder's PVA a la Solomon' .... I am slightly worried about everything setting hard as concrete and being brittle .... is this a problem?

I have tried filling the gaps between sleepers with the ballast dry allowing it to be set at the correct thickness flush with the tops .... and then adding dilute PVA - but this is not working very well. The ballast has a tendency to pit and ball together ....and keeping it off the top of the sleepers is a fiddly job - it is do-able, but extremely time consuming and a bit hit and miss.

I suspect whatever the solution it will be slow ... perhaps the best way would be to build up in layers?

For the final installation I will be laying the sleepers first, then ballasting - before proceeding with laying the track .....in a manner similar to Howard's and Chris's approach.

Tim
Tim Lee

dal-t
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby dal-t » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:29 pm

When laying the ballast dry, are you pre-wetting it before apply the PVA? I find that is the key to avoiding balling and spreading onto the sleepers - but I also use an eye-dropper to control the amount of PVA, and go slowly - I mean really slowly - watching it spread before applying more.
David L-T

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:45 pm

dal-t wrote:When laying the ballast dry, are you pre-wetting it before apply the PVA? I find that is the key to avoiding balling and spreading onto the sleepers - but I also use an eye-dropper to control the amount of PVA, and go slowly - I mean really slowly - watching it spread before applying more.


No I wasn't .... what is involved?

I wonder .... could I bother you to describe the process you use?

I often find that unless I describe something stage by stage when I am used to doing something, I take for granted something I am doing which the beginner is failing to do.

In this scenario of course I am very much the beginner!

Much appreciated.

Tim
Tim Lee

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:49 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I am currently experimenting with a bit of copper clad as a test track - to be followed by a piece of timbered and chaired track.

The issue I am confronting is the required depth of ballast. In the photos above the sleepers are pretty much set in flush with the top of ballast ...and the ballast is a pretty fine mix. Simply coating the base between the sleepers doesn't bring the ballast up flush with the tops of the sleepers - even using fine timber sleepers.
Suggest doing a bit of experimenting with some short bits of track, I use the original thin sleepers and the thickness of ballast does depend on the thickness and dilution of the glue layer before you drop the track on and pour the ballast. You do need to get a feel for it as you can end up with ballast proud of the sleepers if the glue layer is a bit thick. See http://www.norgrove.me.uk/shed-relay.html near the bottom of the page.
I am interested in the use of 'builder's PVA a la Solomon' .... I am slightly worried about everything setting hard as concrete and being brittle .... is this a problem?
I use PVA from the Early Learning Centre or similar intended for childrens playtime, designed to wash out of their clothes I find it has the advantage of being relatively easy to soak off when you want to make a change, I don't know how it would compare with the one Norman uses. I would avoid a waterproof type.
Regards
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby David B » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I am interested in the use of 'builder's PVA a la Solomon' .... I am slightly worried about everything setting hard as concrete and being brittle .... is this a problem?

.... and then adding dilute PVA - but this is not working very well. The ballast has a tendency to pit and ball together ....


1. This is why the builder's PVA is used, for it's flexibility.

2. To help the diluted PVA flow better, add a drop or two of Fairy or it's equivalent to reduce the surface tension. It is even recommended to do this when mixing mortar - sand, cement, PVA and a squirt of washing up liquid..

dal-t
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby dal-t » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:50 pm

David B wrote:a squirt of washing up liquid..


Yes, it does in extremis, but if you want nice neat bricklaying with the minimum of cleaning-up proper plasticiser (£5 for 5 litres from Wickes) is much better - oh, and you need plenty of practice, of course.
David L-T

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Will L » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:.... I am slightly worried about everything setting hard as concrete and being brittle .... is this a problem?


Actually gone off PVA isn't of itself brittle or particularly hard. However when we used to use it with granite chips the resultant mixture was certainly very rigid and hard, which was mostly down to the characteristics of granite. Using the current crops of ballast powders which are made of much softer stuff, the result is much more forgiving.

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:28 pm

Will L wrote:Using the current crops of ballast powders which are made of much softer stuff, the result is much more forgiving.


Which powders are these .... I think the ones I have are granite chips!

Tim
Tim Lee

Alan Turner
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:03 pm

David B wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:Ballasting at the same time as track laying is really the only way to achieve the look you are after. It does however rely on the use of thin sleepers.
It won't work if you use thick sleepers.


Why do you say this about using thick sleepers, Alan?

At Missenden, Norman Solomon does a track-laying demonstration where he lays the track and ballasts in the same operation. With him it is a 'blink and you miss it' job he is so quick. He spreads PVA on to the track bed, places the track and pours the ballast on. On his demonstration bit, he waits a few moments then tips off the surplus, not so easy with a baseboard!


Because the depth of ballast you get with this technique is about the thickness of a thin sleeper. If you use a thick sleeper it still works but the ballast will be below the top of the sleeper, which is not as shown on the photographs of the prototype.

By the way it is not Norman Solomon's method it was devised by the Model Railway Study Group/P4 Group 40 years ago. Norman simply uses it.

regards

Alan

User avatar
CDGFife
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby CDGFife » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:33 pm

I used the thick sleepers on Cadhay and as Alan says the "first pass" of medium/fine Woodland Scenics ballasting on the neat PVA (spread pretty thickly) was generally just below the sleeper top. I have used three different types of PVA over Cadhays' trackwork, Builders/plasterers' PVA (Everbuild 501), Wood glue (Evo Stick PVA the green one) and EVoStick PVA Bond in a large white/red tub. I cannot tell the difference between these in the finished ballast.

My sleepers/ballast are glued to thick paper templates (can't remember the GSM off hand) which are in turn pva glued to closed cell foam track bed on 9mm ply. Whilst I would not necessarily recommend the foam as it is nowhere near as firm as cork, this squashy-ness means I can in most places, push down and depress the foam and the paper/ballast skin without damage, so the Woodland scenics ballast plus PVA, as Will says, does not always go rigid.

For the sidings where the ballast is as per Tim's requirements (i.e. up to the sleeper tops) I regularly needed a second pass to get up to level, but as the Carr's Ash Ballast was (relatively) expensive and very fine, I only used this for the final pass having used mainly WS Medium ballast for the first pass.

However where I have had three or more goes at the ballast and fixed the 2nd, 3rd and 4th passes each with dilute PVA (plus a few drops of washing up liquid) after wetting with a room atomizer spray bottle, the finished ballast is rock hard. That said, on Cadhay I have never been able to detect the difference in sound or rolling stock behavior between the soft parts and the rock hard parts! For this reason my next layout (we all have one of those don't we!) will go back to cork for a track bed as I have not found the foam noticeably quieter.

The Ash particularly I found needed lots of atomizing with water prior to pipetting the dilute PVA to prevent it balling up. Fortunately if you're doing all this before laying the rails you are not soaking your metalwork!!

Cheers

Chris

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby David B » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:25 pm

Alan Turner wrote:Because the depth of ballast you get with this technique is about the thickness of a thin sleeper. If you use a thick sleeper it still works but the ballast will be below the top of the sleeper, which is not as shown on the photographs of the prototype.

By the way it is not Norman Solomon's method it was devised by the Model Railway Study Group/P4 Group 40 years ago. Norman simply uses it.


Thank you, Alan. I will bear this in mind.

I didn't claim this to be Norman's system. I said he demonstrated it at Missenden.

Terry Bendall
Forum Team
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:52 am

A bit of a late response to this but a couple of points...

Alan Turner wrote:Ballasting at the same time as track laying is really the only way to achieve the look you are after. It does however rely on the use of thin sleepers.


I agree with Alan's caveat to his statement, but not with ballasting at the same time as track laying. :) In the five layouts built to P4 standards that I have helped to build so far I have never done this and don't intend to try. Lay the track, get it wired up and working, then lay the ballast. lay it dry so that it can be pushed into place with a small paint brush, and different materials added to get the look that Tim is after. Even with thin sleepers this cannot be achieved successfully when laying the track and it will be necessary to go back and build up the ballast to the depth required.

Having got the track laid I paint the edges of the rails with a suitable "rust" colour, and the sleepers, if using plastic ones. then lay the ballast and then spray the whole lot with a suitable colour - usually " Sleeper Grime" from Railmatch. A selction of other shades will follow including black and/or dark grey where locos would stand.

On glues I have recently found a very good glue for ballast available from WW Scenics, www.wwscenics.co.uk This comes ready diluted and there is no need to add washing up liquid to help it flow. It also dries quickly. Having found this product I will keep to it in future.

Terry Bendall

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Starter question - track work

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:16 am

Terry Bendall wrote:A bit of a late response to this but a couple of points...

I agree with Alan's caveat to his statement, but not with ballasting at the same time as track laying. :) In the five layouts built to P4 standards that I have helped to build so far I have never done this and don't intend to try. Lay the track, get it wired up and working, then lay the ballast. lay it dry so that it can be pushed into place with a small paint brush, and different materials added to get the look that Tim is after. Even with thin sleepers this cannot be achieved successfully when laying the track and it will be necessary to go back and build up the ballast to the depth required.

Having got the track laid I paint the edges of the rails with a suitable "rust" colour, and the sleepers, if using plastic ones. then lay the ballast and then spray the whole lot with a suitable colour - usually " Sleeper Grime" from Railmatch. A selction of other shades will follow including black and/or dark grey where locos would stand.

On glues I have recently found a very good glue for ballast available from WW Scenics, http://www.wwscenics.co.uk This comes ready diluted and there is no need to add washing up liquid to help it flow. It also dries quickly. Having found this product I will keep to it in future.

Terry Bendall


Terry,

So I understand fully.... Do you build up the ballast mix dry, then apply the glue using an eye dropper or similar. Do you pre wet the mix at all?

Also, what kind of Ballast do you use?

Regards

Tim
Tim Lee


Return to “Starting in P4”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 1 guest