Request on behalf of a new member

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
User avatar
Jonathan Hughes
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:31 pm

Request on behalf of a new member

Postby Jonathan Hughes » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:05 pm

Dear friends,

As the New member Support Officer, I occasionally get asked for assistance, and on the majority of occasions the answers to questions will be beyond my knowledge; so I'd like to put the following "out there" so see if I can facilitate a response from our splendid and knowledgeable, and helpful, membership.
Thank you.

The request I received is as follows:

1. I will kick off with a project I have started. An old Falcon kit for a GWR Dukedog has be given to me to improve. It has been built to OO finescale standards, but is a poor runner and hauler. I wish to make the tender load bearing on the engine chassis, and install extra pickups, plus spring the front bogie. Any articles relevant would be welcome, plus more importantly, a list and sourcing of components, especially for the tender chassis to run in a load-bearing condition.

2. I would like to draw up a specification for a load-bearing tender with the aid of the society; the idea that I have is:-
Inside bearings
Split axle pick up with no wipers
I fixed axle and two floating
Motor in tender and drive to locomotive
And also a suitable arrangement for front bogies including pick up
I have a Falcon Dukedog model to strip down and rebuild to this configuration, and if successful, will use the principles for other models.

3. Also, I am building a locomotive and have whitemetal cab components. I wish to replace the cab sides (these are Gresley original A1) with etched cab sides. Where can I source these? Finally, are there any kits for an LTSR 4-4-2 tank-I am aware of the London Roads Model, but it is an original build, and I would like the final version.
If you can forward suitable email contacts, I will pursue this.


I do hope you can help our new member.

Thank you

Jonathan Hughes
NMSO

shipbadger
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:00 pm

Re: Request on behalf of a new member

Postby shipbadger » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:48 am

Although considered by some to be 'old technology' Mike Sharman's two books on Flexichas and Gear Fitting could provide a suitable starting point for consideration of the load bearing tender as he considers these and tender drives in them. Barry Luck's articles in MRJ on split axle chassis should be the starting point for split axle considerations. I'm sure thesre have been more recent articles but these two sources have stood me in good stead when I started out. I haven't checked but I'm fairly certain the Iain Rice covered these topics in his book on etched kit chassis construction also.

Something I've not seen discussed is CSB with tenders that apply a load to the loco. My instinct says this is either not possible or difficult to do. I'll now wait for somebody to tell me I'm wrong.

Tony Comber

beachboy
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Request on behalf of a new member

Postby beachboy » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:47 am

'Of the top of my head' :-

Looking at the current Wild Swan Book List there are three Books on Loco Modelling.
Two of which were reveiwed in recent S4 News by Ivan Tan. Which reveiws I trust can be accessed from the Scanned News copies on this site. Together with all the past copies which must contain a wealth of knowledge to satisfy most Q&A. Then there is the past Forum Q&A nicely under relavant subject headings.

But I do find that some people will want an instant answer, without the desire to take time to source such information. Hence some subjects are often repeated, but not always with the same answer(!).

Another possible alternative to say the Bogie question, is to Download from some Kit Makers Sites the Instructions of how such kits are designed to work. I'm thinking Finney here.

There's Guy Williams ( excellent ) Books, & Rice's Brass Loco kits book, which included a dogy Duke build. But akin to Tony's advice, such aged books and Mags may not be easily sourced.

But is it difficult to take a W/metal cab side, and place/clamp, & mark it onto a sheet of brass. Then saw/snip and file. Add strip etc to detail. 30 mins to plan it out. And 15 to do.

Is it it not that model makers, make good employee's. Because the have developed problem solving skills.

Steve.

Steve.

User avatar
Jol Wilkinson
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Request on behalf of a new member

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:42 pm

Golden Arrow have a LTSR Class 51 listed as under development. Presumably a cast resin body with the possibility of a chassis kit according to their website "These may have to be produced with dedicated chassis kits, unless a reasonably accurate ready-to-run substitute comes along in the meantime".

User avatar
Jonathan Hughes
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:31 pm

Re: Request on behalf of a new member

Postby Jonathan Hughes » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:37 pm

Thank you all for your feedback. Please keep the suggestions coming as I will be passing these on to the new member that sought advice initially.
Thanks :thumb
Jonathan

billbedford
Posts: 670
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Request on behalf of a new member

Postby billbedford » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:29 pm

Jon020 wrote:[i]1. I will kick off with a project I have started. An old Falcon kit for a GWR Dukedog has be given to me to improve. It has been built to OO finescale standards, but is a poor runner and hauler. I wish to make the tender load bearing on the engine chassis, and install extra pickups, plus spring the front bogie. Any articles relevant would be welcome, plus more importantly, a list and sourcing of components, especially for the tender chassis to run in a load-bearing condition.


This arrangement is what we call around here "a bit agricultural". A better arrangement, which wouldn't need the tender providing any load would be:

    Compensated bogie wheels
    No springing between the bogie and the frame so that the bogie carries it's share of the weight
    Drivers mounted on twin beams, or better CSBs
    Drive taken on the leading driving axle using a High-level type gearbox and the motor horizontal in the top of the firebox.

This should enough space below the motor and in the ash box to put in enough lead ballast to give a decent amount of adhesion.

The tender I would do as plain CSB on inside frames.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Request on behalf of a new member

Postby Will L » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:07 pm

I've given this a bit of thought, and I suspect a Dukedog does present as big a problem in getting a good weight distribution as any 4-4-0 you're likely to meet, with a relatively small firebox and boiler and a very chucky smoke box well forward of the drivers. None the less I can't help felling that both a tender mounted motor, and weight transfer from the tender is overkill. Given the shape of the loco I think the tender mounted motor is well worth considering, but having got that far, even a Dukedog should present enough places for weight to get the loco properly balanced.

Poor performance from 4-4-0's, assuming that the chassis turns freely, is almost bound to be down to failing to achieve a proper weight distribution and balance. Compensation using the "obvious" rigid rear axle chassis has stability issues all of it own if you can't get the weight far enough back. So I'm with Bill on the use of CSBs, particularly on a 6 wheel tenders. Well I would say that wouldn't I but given that poor weight distribution leads to failure, using a chassis design which requires you to take weight distribution into account just seems to make sense to me.

While I've never done it, people do seem to be discovering that CSB and split chassis construction do work well together if you want to go that way.

Hopefully we are encouraging Jonathan to look at the forum even if he doesn't (yet) feel confident enough to go into print for himself. He will find I a lot of stuff on making a 4-4-0 CSB chassis (here onward) or extended into a generalised approach for any loco with leading bogie (here). The first of these also contains a design for a bogies (here) which, while conceived with wiper pick ups in mind, would translate into a split frame solution very easily.

Then there is the whole notion if a function spring between bogie and loco. In practice, the bogie needs to hold the front of the loco level while the suspension on the driving wheels sorts out how weight is distribution between them. The distribution of weight between bogie and drivers is ALL down to the location of the centre of gravity. A spring up front does nothing to weight distribution, and any significant amount of give will just allow the front of the loco to bob up and down. Not pretty. Anybody who knows the bogie design which I've pointed to above may wonder about what I'm saying here, but despite the presence of springs in it make up, what they are NOT doing is providing any significant amount of actual sprung controlled movement.

User avatar
Jonathan Hughes
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:31 pm

Re: Request on behalf of a new member

Postby Jonathan Hughes » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:11 pm

Thanks all for your comments and advice. I have provided a link to this page for the new member (John) to look through and hopefully the advice will give the steer that was saught. As always, the membership/forum combination serves as a powerful tool in giving the advice we can often need.
Work has been occupying my time of late so I've not been able to get back to reworking my Heljan 26 that was in the display cabinet at scaleforum alongside my other two blue diesels but hopefully I too will get back to seeing some progress on this soon.... and updating my 26 thread with more progress.
Thanks again.
Jonathan.


Return to “Starting in P4”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest