Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
MikeH
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby MikeH » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:05 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:Blu-tac will be fine provided that you can remove it all afterwards. Anything left may stop the suspension from sliding freely.

A few vehicles ago, I was painting one with BB axleguards already fitted and not removable. (These days I use Carr's blackening solution on the brass and leave out the paint.) I wanted to keep the paint off the sliding surfaces, so I masked up with rubber masking fluid, sprayed primer and then, a day later, spayed black enamel. I was then restrained from even looking at the work while the Four Horsemen ran a gymkhana through my life. Two weeks later, I came back to the model, sitting in full sun on the bench where I'd left it. The rubber stuff had melted and run over everything, then apparently mutated like something out of the Alien movies. The rubber/paint/ick mixture would not shift out of the crevices cleanly, paint that I wanted to keep was abandoning ship all over, and the suspension wouldn't go because the "protected" sliding surfaces were clagged up. I ended up stripping the whole model with Nitromors.


Ouch, not good. I will check out the carr's stuff if all goes well. I will make sure to keep the blu-tack off the important bits and hopefully all will be good. I hate to imagine what it's like trying to spring a steam loco :o

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Will L
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Will L » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:45 pm

Have to say, a lot of modelling tasks can end up being a bit fiddly, but one of the pleasures of Modelling for me is sorting out assembly techniques which enable you to achieve fairly easily what can see impossibly fiddly to start with. Just be glad you haven't chosen 2mm fine scale.

MikeH
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby MikeH » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:59 am

Will L wrote:Have to say, a lot of modelling tasks can end up being a bit fiddly, but one of the pleasures of Modelling for me is sorting out assembly techniques which enable you to achieve fairly easily what can see impossibly fiddly to start with. Just be glad you haven't chosen 2mm fine scale.


Yeah I don't think I could do 2mm scale at all, lol. Well the blu-tack kinda works, I got it all together but then it quickly opened up and all fell apart again :evil:

Edit: well I got it on the jig but as you can see it's a little wonky lol. As you can see if you ignore the dead spider my rtr wheel swap went perfect though
Attachments
IMG_20150712_101742.jpg
mind the dead spider
IMG_20150712_101732.jpg
Straight wheel swap
image.jpg
Getting there
image.jpg
Abit wonky

billbedford
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby billbedford » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:26 am

MikeH wrote:I got the parts together but the wire kept falling out of the holes at the end of the etch


You've like cut the wires too short, but if you put the bearing carriers in place before you mount the w-iron in the wagon then you can bend the ends of the wires so they can't move out of the supports. It is also helpful if the bearing carriers actually grip the wires.

and trying to get wheels and bearings into both ends without things falling out was nigh on impossible so I think I must be doing something wrong.


The sequence is:

    put the wagon upside down on the bench

    make sure the bearing carriers are resting against the inside of the w-irons

    drop the wheelset in place so that it rests on the w-irons

    using a knife blade hold one carrier against its w-iron and spring that end of the axle into its bearing

    repeat last for the other end of the axle

Basically you are using the wheelsets to hold the carriers in place while you spring the axle into the bearing.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:56 am

Mike, I see that you folded up the side flanges on your BB axleguards. That's fine, but you might find that the little tabs that stick up on top are too tall for your particular wagon. Don't assume that fixing the axleguard with the tabs touching the floor will give you the correct position. You need to pack to get the correct height, and you may need to trim off the tabs before you pack.

MikeH
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby MikeH » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:45 am

Ok thanks guys, I think I will take what iv'e learnt and try again on a second one. Slowly getting there :)

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Flymo748
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:09 pm

MikeH wrote:Ok thanks guys, I think I will take what iv'e learnt and try again on a second one. Slowly getting there :)


Excellent attitude! This finescale modelling lark isn't a sprint race, and much of the pleasure is the working things out and putting them together.

Now back to the soldering iron and this b****y Jidenco etched kit ;-)

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
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Paul Townsend
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Paul Townsend » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:07 pm

Flymo748 wrote: b****y Jidenco etched kit ;-)

Flymo

As ye sow so shall you reap :twisted:

dclift
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby dclift » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:44 am

billbedford wrote:
MikeH wrote:I got the parts together but the wire kept falling out of the holes at the end of the etch


You've like cut the wires too short, but if you put the bearing carriers in place before you mount the w-iron in the wagon then you can bend the ends of the wires so they can't move out of the supports.

and trying to get wheels and bearings into both ends without things falling out was nigh on impossible so I think I must be doing something wrong.


I had similar problems with the first few units that I made up some years ago. These days I proceed pretty much as described by Bill above except that, before cutting off the requisite length of spring wire, I use a pair of pliers to make a 90 degree bend in it about 3 mm from the end. I then cut off the length that I need and fit it to the bearing carrier which is then inserted into the w-iron, bent end first. This way it cannot fall out at the bent end while I am attempting to get the other end through the other hole.

I know that some people advise against bending the ends of the wire after it is installed in the w-iron, but I usually then bend the second end and have never had any problems.

I do, however, sometimes substitute guitar string wire for that supplied with the etches as the latter is seldom straight after having been coiled in the pack, and is also occasionally rusty.

Hope this helps.
David Clift.

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Flymo748
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:44 am

Paul Townsend wrote:
Flymo748 wrote: b****y Jidenco etched kit ;-)

Flymo

As ye sow so shall you reap :twisted:


Well, quite... In between cleaning bits of motorbike and watching the MotoGP yesterday, having the van on the workbench proved to be a good distraction when the summer showers came down.

It's now reached this state. Excuse the lack of depth of field. I still haven't found the knack of taking decent close up pictures with this compact:

IMG_8629.JPG


The sprung W-irons went on, as did some decent single-lugged brake shoes onto the existing brakegear, an etched brake lever and guard, and some cast buffers and coupling hooks.

It's only ever going to be a "three foot" vehicle - the brakeshoes are nowhere near the wheels for instance - but I'm pleased to have salvaged it rather than it going in the bin.

Next step is to weight it properly - how much for a covered van? ;-) - and cut and roll a plain roof to go on it. Then it joins the queue for the paintshop.

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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David B
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby David B » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:30 am

Flymo748 wrote:
. . . the brakeshoes are nowhere near the wheels for instance . . .


Well within your capabilities to remedy this, surely?

challenge.jpg
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Ian Everett
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Ian Everett » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:05 am

Maybe a silly question but...

I've just made up some BB springing units for the first time for some fish vans for Humber Dock. In general I found them simple to put together and they seem to work well on my test plank, even with the unweighted plastic kits. However I found that the W-irons were very flimsy at the main bend, so I strengthened the inside of the bend with a thin fillet of solder. This is not mentioned in the instructions, so I am wondering if I did right? I always do this with MJT etc. compensation units.

Ian

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David Thorpe
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:19 am

I've done exactly the same with mine, Ian, without any apparent adverse effects. It makes sense as they are pretty flimsy otherwise.

DT

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:48 am

Strengthening the fold of the BB axleguards works because nothing in the spring carrier needs to fit exactly into the angle of that fold. However, I also find it useful to solder the lugs with the holes for the springs to the horizontal bit of the assembly, to protect against damage. Once this is done, the assembly is quite stiff and I don't need to solder the main fold.

dal-t
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby dal-t » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:16 pm

Isn't it standard practice to solder all folded joints? I'm sure I was told that when I first started building etched kits, but I so many years later (a) I haven't a clue where the instruction came from, and/or (b) maybe modern theory says otherwise?
David L-T

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Flymo748
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:44 pm

David B wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:
. . . the brakeshoes are nowhere near the wheels for instance . . .


Well within your capabilities to remedy this, surely?

challenge.jpg


<camp french accent> And your father smelt of elderberries! You call that a challenge? I speet on your rusty gauntlet!

Seriously, this is definitely one for the three-foot rule. Balancing up the time/outcome equation, it just isn't worth trying to make it perfect. The solebars are a bit naff, the wheelbase seems to be wrong for the brakegear, which is in the wrong spacing. I'd be throwing so much away that I'd be starting from just four etched sides. Which are good. I'll give them that.

Better to accept the compromises, and move on to the next project...

Cheers
Flymo
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www.5522models.co.uk

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David B
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby David B » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:39 pm

Ian Everett wrote: . . . . so I strengthened the inside of the bend with a thin fillet of solder. This is not mentioned in the instructions, so I am wondering if I did right?
Ian

I have always done this with the BB units. I not only do the long folds but the corners as well. I chop small pieces of solder, pop one in a corner with a drop of flux and apply the RSU to the outside. The solder flashes in all 3 planes (except occasionally when the flux boils too quickly and flips the solder off!). On the long folds I do the same and move the probe along so that the solder follows the heat. Simples. :) :)

I make up a fret of units at a time then have them ready when I want them with the bearings already held in the carriers with a minute bit of solder applied with a conventional iron.

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Will L
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Will L » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:10 pm

dal-t wrote:Isn't it standard practice to solder all folded joints? I'm sure I was told that when I first started building etched kits, but I so many years later (a) I haven't a clue where the instruction came from, and/or (b) maybe modern theory says otherwise?


No, there is no need to reinforce all folds. Where a piece is only attached by a single fold it will need reinforcement, but when it forms part of a structure, soldering up the edges is often enough without reinforcing the folds (unless you have over folded it and it is beginning to crack, that is). So for the BB spring unit, when the W iron is folded up and the little flaps at the end with the hole for the spring are turned in, a bit of solder applied to the corners so formed is all that is really necessary. You may need want to reinforce the long fold up strips with the spacing lungs that strengthen the cross members, but that will depend how you fit them to the wagon.

Will

MikeH
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby MikeH » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:38 am

Well the second attempt went considerably better and easier, putting it all together in a matter of a few minutes with no struggling, that was until it opened up again after being folded and the bearing fell out and the wheels so I think a smidging of solder might be required to help hold the frame in maybe

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jim s-w
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby jim s-w » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:02 am

The only soldering I do on BB W irons is to solder the bearing into the carrier.

HTH

Jim

Brinkly
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby Brinkly » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:08 pm

My general rule of thumb is that if John Hayes does it, I copy! (He solders the Masokits w-irons as I do)

Regards,

Nick

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steve howe
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby steve howe » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:21 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
Paul Townsend wrote:
Flymo748 wrote: b****y Jidenco etched kit ;-)

Flymo

As ye sow so shall you reap :twisted:


I too have a Jidenco nightmare that has resurfaced out of the cripples box, its a GW 6 wheel brake van, constructed (more like beaten into submission) many years ago and now due an upgrade. My plan is to use BB sprung W irons in place of the cobbled together compensated units originally used. looking at the list on Eileens website I see a GWR 6 wheel unit is available, can anyone advise if this would suffice in this case (I'm not sure if it means its for 6 wheel coaches) or should I use individual wagon units? there does not seem to be a specific GW unit but they do list a 'heavy RCH' W iron which sounds a possibility?

Steve

billbedford
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby billbedford » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:39 am

The BB GWR w-irons were intended for four and six wheeled coaches.
Bill Bedford
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steve howe
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby steve howe » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:49 pm

billbedford wrote:The BB GWR w-irons were intended for four and six wheeled coaches.


Sorry to be dense, but is that both the BBWF520-4 and BBWF020-4? If so what might the best solution be for the Toad?

Steve

billbedford
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Re: Ideal starter wagon chassis?

Postby billbedford » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:18 pm

The 5XX series are the same outline the 0XX ones but have additional pieces on the fret for the brake of six wheeled coaches.

The GWR wagon w-iron were very close in outline to the RCH standard. If the wheelbase of the toad is short, you may want to consider using BBWF001, or alternatively using BBW002, breaking off the spring supports on the middle axle and using a single continuous spring wire on each side.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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