Sector Plate

[Winander]

There is no section for "New(ish) to Modelling", so this one seems the most appropriate.

Inspired by Ian Rice and the magnus opus that is Lime Street documented on 48 pages at another place, I wish to build a sector plate leading to a fiddle yard of modest proportions. I intend to model a two line branch terminus. It's clear I will need a sector plate at least as long as my longest platform (and thus longest train) but how much longer? I think some headshunts off the plate at the pivot end to store locos would be a good idea, and that the sector plate should be long enough so that an additional loco can be placed on the rear of the stock to work it back.

I would hate to build it and realise it would be so much better if it were 2 inches longer, so am appealing for advice. I feel that 3 roads on the sector plate will be adequate and if I'm feeling adventurous, a turntable instead of headshunts at the pivot end.

I am also open to a traverser, if opinion is that this is more effective.

Any advice gratefully received.

thanks
Richard

[Mark Tatlow]

Richard,

I think there are a likely to be a variety of answers here, but it all goes down to "long enough to take your intended train length". This may well be your platform length, but it is quite possible that a goods train on your layout will be longer, or the engine projects beyond the platform?

What I would do is work out how many carriages and what type of carriages your proposing (obviously, they come in different lengths), then add 100mm on top of this for safety and decide whether your loco is to be on the sector plate or off. This ought to get you to a length - if in doubt add a tiny bit more!

I am considering the same thing and I have the added complication that I am looking to construct a fiddle yard that will do more than one layout (and indeed era of layout). My thinking is that it will be made up of lengths as follows:

- around 300mm for a scenic section (which will be detachable in case I wish to change it for future layouts) that is attached to the main layout
- around 100mm of approach road within the hidden section
- around 300mm of outer cassette that will be linked to the approach road and then the sector plate
- then the sector plate itself, that I will conceive to take the greater off 6 no BR mk 1s or 6 no LMS 57 footers plus one 65 footer.
- then another cassette of the same length.

The logic of the cassettes is that an inbound train can arrive across the outer cassette, across the sector plant and have the loco stop on the inner cassette. The train itself will be on the sector plate. The loco now on its cassette can then be picked up and either put into a rack for safe keeping or transfered back to the front of the train.

Haven't got a length yet, but too long to be a single board, so the sector plate will be detachable and the board in two parts. Well that is the theory anyway!

[Winander]

Thanks Mark.

Certainly food for thought. I had considered goods trains and will check my plans but I think they will not be longer.

My idea regarding disposition of the loco is to drive the train onto the sector plate, uncouple it and move it onto the headshunt/turntable at the pivot. Move the sector plate to a free road and run the loco around the train using the sector plate. This will be necessary until enough locos are available. After posting I recall that Lime Street has two headshunts at the entry to the sector plate to hold locos to move the stock back into the station, which seems a good idea and easily done - although my ambition may exceed my untested ability.

I think I understand your use of cassettes, but wouldn't the sector plate alone achieve the same function? I would be uneasy 'handling' stock in such a manner, and you will have to take measures to stop the loco falling of the cassette. I much prefer the idea of driving the loco where it needs to go.

regards
Richard

[Terry Bendall]

If you can get hold of a copy of Scalefour News 176 you will see what I do for traverser type fiddle yards. These make use of a loco cassette and we have never had any problems with locos falling off. If you can get to Scalefour North you will see this system in use on Elcot Road. This idea was first devised by members of the Mid Sussex group and has been used on Pulborough for many years. The moving section of these traversers are 7 feet long and have 10 roads. I used the same system on Staverton where the moving sections were 9 feet long. On Elcot Road and on Ravenscroft Sidings we have restricted the length of the moving section to 5 feet which fits in the car nicely.

Like Mark we have designed things so that a fiddle yard can work with more than one layout, but unlike Mark the joining section is off-stage and not scenic. There is a picture of this on page 5 of Scalefour News 176.

Conducted tours of the traverser will be available at Scalefour North for a small fee.

Terry Bendall

[David B]

If you can get hold of a copy of Scalefour News 176 you will see what I do for traverser type fiddle yards.

Past copies of Scalefour News are available here through the Members' section of the Society website.

[Ian Everett]

I can't help feeling that a traverser is overkill for a two-line (two platform?) branch and that a full cassette system incorporating a stock box, as designed by Chris Pendlenton and described in MRJ, is a simpler and more flexible solution, moreover it requires less space. This is what I have used on all my P4 layouts - you can see them in action on Clecklewyke at Scaleforum this year.

We have not had any problems with damage to stock - use of cassettes largely eliminates the need to handle stock - you grip the cassette, not the loco.

If one had the space (and was not using asymmetric couplings) possibly a Denny-style train turntable might be the answer. I saw an O gauge layout with six-coach length turntables at each end at the Stafford show last week - very impressive.

Keep us posted!

Ian

[Noel]

As a follow on to Mark Tatlow's comments, it was not at all unknown on branches for the platform to be much longer than any passenger train which ever used it [Victorian railway builders were nothing if not optimistic], so, as he suggests, the platform length is not particularly relevant. Or are you considering a traffic pattern like that at Exmouth, which had to be rebuilt in SR days to take longer trains?

Will you build it yourself, or ask someone else to do so? If the former, how are your carpentry skills? How much space do you have available? If space is limited this will affect the options you can use and stll fit in an adequate train length.

Noel

[Winander]

Thanks to you all for the kind and useful advice.

Time for a re-think as there's no point in asking for advice from experienced people and ignoring it!

My layout is a one man affair and will not be exhibited. My idea is to automate operation at that end as far as possible since the plan is to gradually extend the scenic section and move the fiddle yard along until I have a nice long run of branch line. I want to stay down the interesting end as far as possible It will be in the loft, so a long run is possible.

I have read News 176 today and saw the cassette system on Brighton Road at Scaleforum North last year. I was impressed, and will take up Terry's offer of advice at this year's event provided the fee is reasonable. Following your comments I will re-consider a traverser arrangement using cassettes as I realise they will provide a means to 'handle' fixed rakes of stock.

With regard to train lengths and platform lengths, I have no idea, but suspect since my prototype had the platforms extended and got coach sidings soon after building, platforms may have been fully utilised. I have read the article in the latest News and other submissions by Tim Venton regarding prototype operation, but whilst agreeing, I immediately panic thinking that I will never get the required information.

My woodworking skills are pretty good and, with care, I should manage; and Terry's article alerted me to the need to use suitable materials to keep everything level and stable in the long term. I must read the rest of that series.

Thanks again
Richard

[Will L]

While platform lengths greater than the trains using them is a nice touch they certainly weren't universal. What you do need to do is to make sure that run round loops, head shunts, sidings used to hold whole trains , and even the distance between the advance starter and the king point are also big enough to accommodate your biggest train. Unless, of course, you want deliberately want to incorporate operational difficulties.

[Terry Bendall]

I can't help feeling that a traverser is overkill for a two-line (two platform?) branch

A fair comment and in respect of fiddle yards in general each person will do what they want. As with everything else it depends on the individual's situation. Elcot Road fits Ian's description but we went for a traverser because (a) we know it works, (b) it allows easy and quick turn round of trains, (c) it avoids most of the stock handling.

The layout is designed for exhibition so we like to keep things on the move without long gaps between trains. Not prototypical but we like to keep the visitors entertained. It is very easy and quick to move the traversed to the required road and send the train and avoids any lifting of cassettes - a move that can cause problems, especially if you want to turn the whole train round. On Pulborough and on Ravenscroft Sidings the only handling of stock is moving brake vans to the other end of the train.

a Denny-style train turntable might be the answer

We did thon some 35 years ago on West Chiltington. The turntables were four feet long and they worked very successfully for the entire life of the layout. (about 15 years) They do of course need room to turn which may not be possible with a home layout.

Terry Bendall

[Ian Everett]

I can't help feeling that a traverser is overkill for a two-line (two platform?) branch

A fair comment and in respect of fiddle yards in general each person will do what they want. As with everything else it depends on the individual's situation. Elcot Road fits Ian's description but we went for a traverser because (a) we know it works, (b) it allows easy and quick turn round of trains, (c) it avoids most of the stock handling.

Terry Bendall

I suppose that one factor in favour of a traverser for Elcot Road would be that many of the trains will be multiple units, which require no shunting in the fiddle yard?

One thing I would warn against is making cassettes too long as they can become unwieldy. Mine are 10" for locos and 2' for trains - longer trains use multiple cassettes.

We avoid turning cassettes holding trains round as that is the most risky manoeuvre.

Good luck, Richard - I did send you a P.M. about CRAG, which of course you would be very welcome to join, but I'm not sure whether it was sent by my computer.

[Tim V]

With regard to train lengths and platform lengths, I have no idea, but suspect since my prototype had the platforms extended and got coach sidings soon after building, platforms may have been fully utilised. I have read the article in the latest News and other submissions by Tim Venton regarding prototype operation, but whilst agreeing, I immediately panic thinking that I will never get the required information.
Thanks again
Richard

No need to panic, I'm sure the information is out there. Finding it is both a challenge - and fun!

[Noel]

What was the prototype you had in mind, Winander? There may be someone on here who knows about it.

Noel

[Will L]

Having exhibited both an out and back layouts with a six road simple sector plate style fiddle yard and an end to end layout with cassettes, I have to say I'm not totally convinced by the cassette=avoidance of the loco handling damage arguments.

Loco's picked up carefully doesn't generally suffer any more than a little paint ware on the footplate edge.

Locos length cassettes are used because of the need to move the loco about. To stop the loco falling off in the process you tend to hold both loco and cassette so there goes some of the advantage. What your moving is now more awkward to handle and the cassette under the loco gives you something your not worried about damaging to bash other stock with. Then locos on such a cassette do occasion fall off and not just when being moved deliberately. There are more ways of arranging this that you might suspect and there is now a drop before the loco meets something hard. If you are using loco cassettes it is worth remembering that any loco with a worm drive will not just roll off the cassette (yet another reason not to bother with Portescap type motor /gearboxes).

On the whole perhaps re-colouring the foot plate edge is one of the simpler/easier repairs you'll find yourself doing. Presumably a continuous run fiddle yards has much to recommend them, but I've never had one of those so I'm not aware of the hazards that lurk in within.

[Winander]

Tim,
I've found the challenges of my research so far interesting, but have recently realised that it has occupied almost a year and no modelling done. I have very much enjoyed reading and digesting information on this forum and others and through a growing library of books, but I am ready, as it were, to cut the first sod. My task is alleviated somewhat by modelling an exact representation of a prototype, so any operational challenges are entirely the LNWR's fault! That said, I have chosen a difficult period to model, somewhere around the 1860/70's. To date my only reference to prototypical operation is a single accident report. It is possible that I will have to compromise somewhat and model a later period owing to the difficulties in obtaining models (e.g. waiting for suppliers to decide to produce wheels for one of my chosen locomotives) and the simple fact that with the passage of time, information is lost. But I shall persevere for a little longer.

It does, however, permit me to freelance to an extent, and no pesky brakes on locos, no point rodding or signal boxes, just a pointsman. I am ambitious and am willing to try scratchbuilding and whilst first eschewing a plank, have decided to build one and have decided on a timesaver puzzle http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/ ... saver.html to provide more practice building track, more interest and a better testbed.

Will,
Yours is an opinion I have shared from the start regarding handling. I wish to avoid it (even in a cassette) and think a sector plate and turntable is a means to do so. I don't wish any disrespect to those advocating cassettes, and will keep it as an option until I find out more. I am still inclined to drive the train, which is one of the reasons for this hobby of mine.

Noel,
My prototype is Windermere, the attraction being the regular and large volume of excursion traffic. Apparently 8,000 visitors travelled in by train in one holiday weekend and the goods yard was cleared on Saturday morning's to provide day time storage. I don't know how many carriages 8,000 people needed (more prototype research required) but that must equate to a few trains. I have made a request for advice regarding arrangements regarding the running of other companies stock in the Layout and Operations thread.

Richard

[Terry Bendall]

I suppose that one factor in favour of a traverser for Elcot Road would be that many of the trains will be multiple units, which require no shunting in the fiddle yard?

Quite correct Ian although one thing that will happen eventually is to have two 2 car EPB units which fit into a 2 foot long cassette and run separately at times arrive separately on the layout to couple up on the layout. This will represent an off peak service unit stabled in the bay platform which is then strengthened to a 2+2 set for a peak period service. However we need to get the Hornby VEP converted and the ends corrected first
.
At the moment we have four freight trains so these need a loco swap in the fiddle yard but that is all the fiddle yard shunting needed.

One thing I would warn against is making cassettes too long as they can become unwieldy.

Yes they can. I have used 4 foot long ones successfully and on Brighton road they were 5 feet long. However all that was being done was to shuffle them from front to back. It worked but obviously some care was needed.

Loco's picked up carefully doesn't generally suffer any more than a little paint ware on the footplate edge.

Quite true Will but there is also the matter of making sure all the wheels are on the track again. Fairly easy with an 0-6-0 loco but a bit more difficult with a Co-Co diesel with 12 wheels to get right, much of them being hidden behind the side frames and brake rigging.

you tend to hold both loco and cassette so there goes some of the advantage

The way we work is to pick up the cassette with the hand spanning across the top of the loco to grip the sides of the cassette. That seems to work. We are also fairly strict about clean hands which are washed after eating as well as before to remove grease from any food. The original loco cassettes used on Pulborough had sides of clear acrylic and drop down ends. This stopped any rich of touching the loco and prevented anything falling out.

Terry Bendall

[Noel]

At the moment we have four freight trains so these need a loco swap in the fiddle yard but that is all the fiddle yard shunting needed.

So a goods train leaves, and in due course reappears with exactly the same stock in the same order, apart from the brake van and loco, possibly? I understand that this makes operation easier, especially at exhibitions where the pressures to not make mistakes or leave long gaps between trains are much greater than in home use, but it is not representing the way the real railway operated, and does spoil my enjoyment of many layouts at exhibitions. Should we not be trying as far as possible to show not just what real railways looked like, but also how they operated, since we are railway modellers? Or am I expecting too much?

Clearly layout operators do think about what they are doing, but there does seem to be a tendency to present a sequence of trains, which is repeated after a longer or shorter time. Perhaps operators assume that people will move on after a very few minutes? Do they think about the audience view of the show they are putting on and whether a sequence of trains is enough to keep an informed audience's attention? Is what was done forty years ago still good enough?

Sorry to throw that lot at you, but I though I would take this opportunity to ask, since your viewpoints are likely to be quite different to mine.

Noel

[Terry Bendall]

So a goods train leaves, and in due course reappears with exactly the same stock in the same order

Partly true. The layout is set in 1988 so a bit different to the days of the pick-up goods. The freight workings are as follows:

A coal train of HEA hoppers comes onto the layout loaded. The wagons are shunted into the unloading siding by the train engine which then departs light engine for the fiddle yard. The hoppers are then unloaded with the aid of a Sentinal shunter and the empties are then left for collection later.

A Speedlink freight service consists of 3 OCA cement tankers and 5 VAA vans. Some of the vans are cut out of the train and left for unloading. The train returns later to collect the empty vans. When they have been built, some open wagons with bagged coal will be added to this train.

A civil engineers train of Grampus wagons that has ben working down the line comes in to run round and then departs when there is a break in the passenger service. Quite often it is found that there is a wagon with a hot box in the rake that has to be cut out and left for repair. This wagon can be collected later after the box has been fixed or cooled down sufficiently to be moved. Yes we do know that Gampus wagons are not correct for the area and the right type of wagons will follow when built.

A train of Sturgeon wagons that has been working down the line comes in so that the loco can run round and depart when there is a path.

but it is not representing the way the real railway operated

We believe that this is how the railway operated in this period and in this sort of location. Others of course may know better. In the context of an electrified surburban branch line set in the Croydon area with the rump of a freight service we think it is fairly typical. There are some special working as well including two Motor Luggage Vans - we assume that East Croydon has been closed due to engineering work and mail services have been diverted, and the Southern Region General Manager's Inspection Saloon is a frequent visitor.

[quote="Noel"]Do they think about the audience view of the show they are putting on and whether a sequence of trains is enough to keep an informed audience's attention? [quote]

Well we try. How successful we are others can decide.

Terry Bendall

[Noel]

but it is not representing the way the real railway operated

We believe that this is how the railway operated in this period and in this sort of location. Others of course may know better.Terry Bendall

Yes, sorry, Terry, being interested in the steam era on BR I was rather overlooking the essentially very limited range of operations occuring on BR in the later diesel era, even when Speedlink was still in operation. In my defense I would say that my comments/questions were intended to be read as being about layouts at exhibitions in general, not specifically about yours.

Winander, my apologies for rather hi-jacking your thread.

Noel

[Terry Bendall]

Yes, sorry, Terry

Thank you. No problem.

Terry Bendall