West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:43 am

:) Hi Julian,

It is true that you will hardly ever hear me swear, but I have been known to :o especially when working on some of my old cars and it is always the same word "Blank!" :shock: :shock: When I was at primary school I used to sit with my pal Hugh in our chummy seats together. The lesson had been a bit boring for us children I am afraid and another friend in the class had begun a whispering game which was being passed around the class eventually coming around to Hugh. It had caused a few giggles so I was curious to hear what was causing the sniggering. :?: So when Hugh eventually whispered into my ear that I "was a dirty little "Blank" :evil: I confess that I was a little confused, :? not knowing what the expression meant :| so, I said back to him that he was one two. :twisted:

Unfortunately the teacher :) overheard me and called me out before the class and asked me to repeat what she thought I had said and, truthful and honest as ever, I told her what Hugh had called me and that I had called him that back. :| :shock: The shock that appeared on my teachers face that her worst fears had come to be and how this young pillar of primary school society had come to this was clearly apparent and I could say no more!

My mate Hugh, needless to say, denied he had said anything :!: and being, in her mind :idea: , of an even higher level of virtue, the teacher had now lost it with me :twisted: :!: and I was the one who was given six of the best :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: and sent back to my seat none the wiser as to the meaning of the phrase I had just learned. :?: Ever since when knuckles are banged :cry: or flesh seared :( that word comes instantly to mind and sometimes to the lips. :shock:

However, nowadays, I have managed to overcome such utterances so as not to offend your gentle music loving ears Julian. As you know, being a writer and illustrator of children's books, I now utter the less offensive "Gruffalo!" - works just as well! (Sorry all readers of the Gruffalo.)

I have never been bothered about the swearing thing although don't use it much myself, but I do remember going down to Kirkland Yard one morning when a crane was being used to relay the formation in the yard. It seemed like every second word was an expletive, but conditions were cold and the work hard and just to get things done it seemed to act like oil in the works. probably most of the men in these days would not have sworn in front of their wives when at home - my dad having been a motor engineer in his young days was the same, which brings us back to working on the car.

As an aside I wish now that I had had my camera with me that morning as the work was done on the track - fascinating - one of the problems for the crane crew was the sheer number of overhead wires in the area and posts getting in the way of easy working. I will write up a bit more on Sunday when I get time. I am adding to the West Lothian Starters Group thread at the moment and covering gearboxes of different types Julian so you might want to have a look at some point. :)

Allan

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:04 pm

DSC04151.JPG


Now we left off here a little while ago-so just to remind everyone, (Seems ages ago since I took these photographs, because of illness and other concerns). The engine looks pretty much like any brass kit being assembled, all a bit rough around the edges despite cleaning off as we go along. The important dimensions are checked at this stage as well as the levels. Check the front view to make sure there are no discrepancies and that nothing is off centre and double check that the buffer beams are level, especially now it is sitting on the chassis. Do the same for the back.

Check that the top of the boiler/smokebox are level and the footplate is also level and agree with one another. I do not have a pointer on a stand to check with, never have, but may still get one - I know several people will write in and say that it is necessary - however this is for beginners to scratch building and I do not intend adding to the tools list at this time. Your vernier gauge can be used to do most of your checking.

From now on I am going to be adding detail so I do not want to be changing anything major at a later date. In fact if you have been doing checks as you have been going along there should only be minor adjustments at this stage. I can live with what I have here so I am going to start to make small details to finish the locomotive and will look at some techniques you can use to produce these.

DSC04152.JPG


Here we have an additional row of rivets being added at the base of the smokebox saddle. They have been produced using a riveting tool, but this is not altogether necessary as the material being used is thin brass shim. Fairly even rivets can be punched out using a scriber and a piece of card supporting under the shim, (Very thin brass sheet) and gently tapping with a small hammer. Allowing the hammer to drop from exactly the same height each time will produce regular rivets. Allowing the hammer to drop from a very small height is the key to this.

A ruler can be used to help keep spacing right and to get the rivets to form in straight rows. Only cut them from the sheet using scissors, once they have been formed. Next, either tin them (that means just a thin coating of solder and flux ) on the underside with solder and with some more flux between the surfaces, they can be sweated on ( that just means taking a clean iron and applying heat to the top surface) A cocktail stick will help to hold the shim in place during the operation. The beginner may be wary of trying out this sort of thing so have a go on a piece of scrap before trying it on the engine, or alternatively, use superglue to stick it on. Providing there is not going to be any heat applied close by, that would be perfectly fine.

:idea: Heated superglue can damage the eyes so that is why I am warning you.

Many kit makers nowadays pick the materials to suit the job and this is also true with the use of solders and glues, there are some purists however, who are very iffy about all that, but that is something you have to decide for yourself, I am not here to make judgement, I am only hear to give suggestions and help. I like the challenge of all soldered construction, but do not expect that, nor try to force it from anyone attempting their first scratch locomotive. Under a layer of paint few would be able to tell, you would be amazed by what the two ships (the passenger steamer and the Victorian dredger which I built for Burntisland) were made from. :shock: I must look out some construction photos from way back.

Here is a way to make a sheet of Rivets for cutting out and using. First mark out using a scriber and ruler the distances apart in two dimentions - very good for doing unclad fireboxes incidently.

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Here a scriber is being used and the hammer (out of site) is being dropped and indentations made following where the scribed lines cross to make the rivets.

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A completed sheet - yes it will curve up - this may be what you want anyway depending on where they are going to be placed. Strips can be cut and then teased flat before fitting as above.

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I tend to cut away the first strip as they are normally not too good - needs getting a feel for however the following strips are cut as near the rivets as possible as the strips settle better that way and are easier to disguise after fitting. Remember this is just a way to do it without a special tool - the rivets look pretty even just the same.

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Last edited by Allan Goodwillie on Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Knuckles
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Knuckles » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:14 pm

Superglue vapour, flux vapour and others - had them all ascend into my eyes before.

Was very lucky the MK1 Eyeballs didn't gum up or disolve. A few automated tear droplets thankfully were all that were needed to cure the problem but I don't plan on making a habit out of it. Also have accidently transfered flux into my mouth a few times too - that was fun.... :P Toothpaste quick.

Should rename myself Danger Mouse...or Bonehead.

Looking a really promising scratch build. Something I may attempt one day just for the crack.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:52 am

Thanks Knuckles, :)

One thing I would obviously recommend is good ventilation. If I am going to be doing a fair bit of soldering I put my extractor unit that I use for airbrushing on and sit it just to the front of where I am working - it draws in the fumes and I have found it is still efficient if I place a kitchen towel on the front of it, this absorbs most of the noxious material and when I am finished the towel is thrown in the bin.

When this is not possible I try to make sure I wear a mask although this is less comfortable. I always wash both hands and face after a session it is amazing how much will collect on mouth, ears etc. and finally, when working at home I use an apron. When silversmithing these were always leather to protect you from any molten metal. The apron also catches small items, sometimes I use a small plastic bucket placed between the feet to catch small articles, or assembling items with lots of small parts - the gearboxes I am dealing with in the starters group thread - which does relate to this one and worth looking at even for those more advanced individuals within the Society. :idea: The bucket catches small items from where they rare dropped and they don't bounce beyond. I also have a wooden floor these days, for the same reason - gone is the carpet!

We are now going to have a look at producing the details to make the loco come alive.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:16 pm

The first detail sometimes missed on model engines is what could be called the flashing of the area between the boiler and the tanks - over the gap between. I have no idea what the correct term for this is - I am sure someone will know.

On the Barclay tanks this is simply a strip of steel which is bent to follow the boiler shape and angled to go along the flat of the tank. If you look back at the photographs of the prototype this can be seen. I assume it was to help stop corrosion and dirt getting down between. It also stops water getting down in between when the tanks overflow. Other locos may have a rim around the tank top instead. NBR and Caley locos were similar and had rounded corners to the tanks to allow any overflow to be cast off fairly quickly.

In the model I have used brass shim again which is easily curved and angled. Gently coaxing around a piece of round bar, or a pencil held in the vice will work. I use a curved burnishing tool, but even an old teaspoon handle will help to form the curve. Make the curve on the end of a sheet - it is easier that way, then put the angle in before cutting away from the sheet. Sweat on or again use superglue to hold it. Try to be neat with this as it is in a prominent position and if wrong will be very noticeable! :twisted: Finger pressure on its own can be enough depending on the grade of shim. I have known people to use thick aluminium foil as an alternative. Cutting it flat and simply forming it in place. It would have to be glued as aluminium does not solder to brass or nickel silver. remember here I am not prescribing, these are choices to be made at an individual level.

The following photograph is not terribly clear, but does show the "flashing" fitted on the right hand side fitted with one and blended in and no left hand one fitted. I wish I had taken more photos of this part of the process, sorry. :cry:

DSC04158.JPG


I did mention earlier that when planning your locomotive there may be items you can get as ready made and wish to purchase these beforehand. This will add to the cost of the build, but may be worth it if the product is good and will save time in the making. I am trying to get as near to a possible first attempt at a person's first scratch-build as possible, partly to show that it is fairly straightforward even for the beginner to try and having access to a few useful bits and pieces is probably the route most of you will take.

In this case I went looking and have decided to use the following bits and pieces including -

Gibson (4M728) safety valves (Which I will cut down and put on a different base)
Gibson Lubricators (4M604) very nice lost wax casting
Gibson Sprung buffers (G4903)
Caley Coaches "Caley" hooters ( Not quite the same sound, but same shape)

I have also used Gibson handrail knobs, small and medium, however anyone building one of these may wish to use the type found on WD's, less of a knob more just a rod drilled through and the handrail fitted through that. (I have a memory of just such a thing available from some manufacturer, but can't for the life of me remember who produces them. I only discovered after the building of the first engine that they were like that, so here is a chance for someone to go one better than me - feel free!

Apart from that I did mention that Bob had a go at doing my chimney and domes. My own lathe motor has been fixed, but in some ways it was meant to be like this as you may wish to purchase similar or get them made while you concentrate on building the rest. So this is going to be even closer to a typical first build than I had intended!

There is a section on using lathes elsewhere for you to look at if you have a lathe, but I am going on the assumption that a beginner may not want to invest right at the beginning and will wait until a couple of locos have been built before going out and buying one. My early engines used bits I would turn up using a drill and files as well as pieces of brass tubing, washers and sometimes filler just to complete. Although there are quite a number of engine builders out there who charge reasonably for the production of such things.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby David Knight » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:35 pm

Alan,

The WD style posts are available from Markits. 3mm long version ref. M4HRKWDL . I know there is a short version but I don't have the part number to hand at the moment.

Cheers,

David

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:55 pm

The tank fillers are next. The particular tanks (unusually) have rectangular shaped tops and since I am scratch building at least three locomotives of this type I will need 6 of these. This is an opportunity to show how to make and use a simple jig to produce such a thing. Cutting a rectangle of material to size is no particular problem, however the lid has a ridge all the way around. The jig is to make these surrounds consistently. The jig itself is made up from a piece of copper clad material the size of the inside shape of the ridge soldered on to a spare piece of brass and a steel nail soldered on to the base to allow it to be held in the vice. The following shows the stages of construction of the jig as well as the making of the ridge.

There is a small hole placed in the jig as the starting point for the wire coming through and lining up with the first side. I flatten what is going to be the inside edge just by tapping the wire with a hammer. One of Bill Bedford's bending jigs (Highly Recommended) :!: is used to put in the first couple of bends and then the material worked around the jig excess wire gets cut off after both the top and the outside edge has been filed flat. The latter can be done after the rectangular edge has been soldered on. A bar of brass has been used the same thickness as the material used for the lid just to hold the wire in place while the two are soldered together.

DSC04160.JPG


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A certain tweaking of the wire using flat nosed pliers will straighten any slight bowing.


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Not quite straight! Requires a re-heat!

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:29 pm

So little jigs can come in handy if building multiples of things. The added detailing is not being shown here in exact running order, just what was done to complete the model so you may notice various bits off and on and off again as we look at the loco being built. It might be a good idea anyway, to do dry runs as you go along. Make sure all the parts are going to fit and what order they may need to be fitted, or to gain an idea of how the loco is going to look. :?

The cab roof can cause some problems, so this is a little technique I use to get the cab straight. :thumb I noticed that this cab seemed a little out when I cut the roof shape out in paper, The cab was going to have to be straightened ever so slightly. So I looked for the corner which seemed to be correct using my small square and started from there.

I built a wooden framework to make sure ALL WAS STRAIGHT STARTING FROM THE CORRECT CORNER. The sheet metal is corrected into place against the wood(Lolly sticks) using a combination of mini clamps. we are only talking about slight adjustment here, but I think that what can happen on initial soldering up is that the edges of the cab front and back have joined the sides, but not absolutely at right angles.The carefully measured and cut wooden strips allow me to clamp up and simply re-heat the solder down the edge or edges that require treatment. Having straightened the cab I was happy that the roof would fit and be square - one of these things that if wrong, shows up.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:51 pm

So looking at the fitting of the roof we have the following sequence. I like a roof that clip fits and uses springs in the corners of the cab to keep it in place when running. You may prefer to simply solder it in place at a later point once you have done what you would like to do inside the cab. So this may not be necessary. That's OK. 8-) But just in case. ;) ;) here's what I do. By the way you can see down the space between the boiler and the tank here as this was done before fitting the "flashing" that we considered earlier

DSC04170.JPG
Now that is a better fit.


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The line of the roof on the Barclay tanks is quite subtle, but I think helps give them character.


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Check the fit of the sides as well particularly under the eves as it were.


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angle strip is added to the roof edges to allow the roof to clip neatly in place


DSC04174.JPG
Not quite there yet, some adjustment needed - in this case the brass strip was not soldered exactly into the right place and was re-soldered correctly

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:06 pm

Continuing with the roof-

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Here are my springs - fairly stiff brass wire which will spring in tight into each corner - simple!


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Here the cab roof is finally checked for fit


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If soldering on a cab roof I would suggest the following technique where you hold things in place using a lolly stick or similar to hold things in place while soldering. I would solder one outside edge and then work my way over the front edge then check to see the fit down each of the sides if all is going to go on straight then fine, if not then have another go - it is always easy to release if only one edge is done
Alternatively you can solder just the corners, putting paper in where you may not want solder to follow and once all seems to be sitting right take out the paper and solder in between, again using the stick.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:29 pm

Now some other details and techniques, first the equalising pipe - this is the pipe, normally below the boiler which goes from tank to tank to keep the level in the tanks the same. The engine is maybe being filled up on the one side only for the entire trip. Some locomotives also had tanks behind the cab and had equalizing pipes going forward as well to the fore tanks. The Barclays are simple. In this case I wanted to bend a piece of brass tubing as I found that the brass rod was far too stiff to allow me to bend it into shape. If you just try to bend tube it tends to flatten and distort rather than form a nice rounded bend which is what is needed.

You can buy a set of tube benders, something I don't have, or you can try fitting some copper wire inside the pipe, either thick copper wire or mains multi strand twisted tight. This gets threaded down the tube. Copper wire is very malleable and bends with ease. The brass tube when it is full of copper wire cannot compact so it follows the copper and nice reasonably neat bends can be made. The bends in this case suffer a little from the fact that I could not find my round nosed pliers on the day and had to use flats. I was not very worried about this as the errant marks are impossible to see when the pipe is fitted below the boiler. :P :o :cry: :| :) :D

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Here is the copper going into the tube


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here the brass tube is being cut after bending, the copper can be left inside of course. If twisted wire was used, depending on length it may be possible to pull it out - a strand or two to begin with but then more as you progress. If the tube has to be open ended just drilling out the material that would show is an alternative.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:53 pm

Now we will look at the detailing of the smokebox doors. I have turned them, but equally, although it takes longer a disc of material can be cut out and the edges dealt with. The Barclay tank is not heavily dished and ideal for treating in that way. It is surprisingly flat. You still need a hole drilled for the smokebox dart to go in., but how do you get the hinges made and soldered correctly and parallel to one another? Well here is what I do. I take a coffee stirrer or lolly stick and slim them down until they are the distance between the two hinges. I drill a hole halfway between to take a nut and bolt which allows me to attach the stick to the front of the smokebox using the hole for the smokebox dart. So another simple little jig made out of wood - getting used to this now? :?:

My smokeboxes have clip fitted doors so that I can get in to them at a later date, but that is not necessary for someone just starting out- it is just one of my little projects that I am planning.



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This is how the jig is attached and the hinges cut to size, shape and fitted/sweated on. I have also used the two holes for the handrail to work out the level for the jig


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Here the hinge rod is being soldered into place. Could be made to work if required.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:38 pm

Hi David

Thanks for the information about the WD handrail knobs and mentioning that there is a short version available as well.

Markits. 3mm long version ref. M4HRKWDL


As you can see I have been busy this afternoon catching up with this thread and only now have realised that you sent a reply about the handrail knobs. Thank you so much. I knew someone out there would know. I must look them up and will get some, not just for the Barclays, but for my WD's. Might as well get it all right! Quoting my good friend Mr. Summers who coined the phrase.

Incidentally I have been putting some research into the content of the drivers lunch pieces that they had for their meal on a certain day in 1961 and have had some success after years of letters and tracing families and wives and in some cases mothers of drivers on the Wemyss system. Info on this is difficult to get hold of all in the interests of getting it all right. I still have not found out the name of the dog that used to accompany the signalman at Scout Green box. I have modelled the dog however. It would be useful to know as it would be good to have a sound chip of the dog barking when the bells go and the signalman telling the dog - (whatever his name is) to be quiet! :D

I have been on this too long today, going to take a break!

Allan

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:01 pm

Having had a look at smokebox doors I thought that I might turn to handrails. Smokebox doors often have curved ones and they are difficult to get right I must confess. I tend to try judging it by eye and using something to bend around - I have a range of brass rod, but anything will do as long as it is round and to a slightly smaller diameter than the handrail needs to be.

My father used to make jigs for the building of aircraft during the war and I remember him telling me that it was important to calculate for the metal's springiness when the item was removed from the jig. I pull the wire around the form, in this case I am using the vice on the bench as it looks a promising size. As I bend I keep trying out the wire against the drawing or engine to see how it may fit in the "relaxed position" Once happy it will be cut to length and fitted. Not very scientific, but it does work.

DSC04184.JPG


The more difficult version is when the handrail comes along the boiler takes a couple of turns then over the front of the upper smokebox and then back along the boiler. It does not apply in this case, but I tend to do it as a mirror image curving the centre of the wire to the radius needed, then tweak the angles, eventually bringing the ends of the wire out towards you and in line with the handrail knobs. Then turn them around and fit, reduce the side lengths if necessary. If you have a drawing you can do it using the same method against the drawing and hope your building is accurate.

Again this is a nice simple prototype to deal with, straight handrails pretty much everywhere. The ones going through knobs are very straightforward - it is just a case of cutting to length and fitting to the knobs (which sometimes need to have the holes cleared using a broach) and once fitted soldered from inside the body. No problem with this tank loco, all very accessible. Some tender engines less so and they may require soldering up before the body is attached to frames, cab and even smokebox some times - so if remember that if tackling one. My little jigs help keep everything straight and hold the wire in place without burning fingers while soldering.

There are plenty handrails on the engine however, and they must all go on fairly straight - although I have seen any number of real engines with bent ones!

So how do do you set them accurately? I have a couple of little jigs - not more jigs I hear you cry, but none of these jigs takes any time to make and they will make the job easier, you will save the time back, over and over again and get a better more accurate finish into the bargain. (and no more burnt fingers!)

Bill Bedford's really useful jig can be used for much of the work - I would suggest if you do not have one already do go out and buy one, you will not regret it and you will find lots of things you can use it on. It saves measuring and will increase accuracy in your modelling. To use it you simply put the jig on top of the model. and move it along until the two holes for the handrail come in sight Where one hole sits on the edge of the jig and the other fits in the connected hole. Place the wire end in the hole and bend a right angle run the wire, still with the end through the hole down the groove to the edge and make another right angled bend. Cut from the length of wire and there you have it a length of wire just right for going between the two holes on the model - excellent! Thank you Bill!


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Although not immediately obvious if you look you can just see the upper hole of one of the cabside handrails - the one where the handrail is being inserted and the other hole below on the edge of the jig, with a groove running between them.


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Here the other end is being bent into shape

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:38 pm

The jig has more than one purpose as will become clear, the Jig is made from two small pieces of mdf and a piece of lolly stick and a strip of copper-clad material heated to remove the copper and sanded down clean ( you could just sand down until the copper comes off.) This is trimmed and marked black at one end so that the depth of the mark is the amount needed to be able to fit the handrail to the locomotive. It is important that the jig is narrow to be able to take the length of your shortest handrails.

ie. The distance from the metal that the handrail must stick out from the surface, plus enough through and behind the metal to be able to solder a good joint. This allows you to check you have enough material to allow you to fit the handrail properly.

A small block of wood/mdf is roughed up and glued at the other end,(rough up the area it is going to be glued to as well ) For the upper part a length of lolly stick is put on top and extends some way along as in the photograph, this is glued to a second block of the same material which is fitted alongside the first but only glued to the lolly stick, not to the bottom of the unit. A groove at right angles in the upper block, that will allow your handrail material to fit tightly when the top is pressed against the bottom half of the jig is all you need. The photographs will hopefully explain. :|

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The first is made from a piece of copperclad - the copper has been removed both sides and the end painted for the depth gauge


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Here we see the handrail being checked against the depth gauge


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Here is what the jig looks like when made up with a handrail in place ready to fit


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Use a square to make sure that handrails are going to be correctly held at right angles, if you make your jig wrong then they will all be wrong


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If you have made your jig properly then when the two parts are held together the wire will not revolve out of place
Last edited by Allan Goodwillie on Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:52 pm

Now to show the jig in use. Here the jig holds a handrail in place on the cab side. It is in square and held at the same distance from the surface all the way down the cab side. It is held securely without any danger of heat going to the fingers. There are no awkwardly held pliers holding it approximately right and the same hand trying to hold the engine somehow as well. :D

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This view shows that the handrail is going in at right angles


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...and from the top. Everything secure and you are able to hold the body of the engine as well - all secure for your other hand to do the soldering


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The narrowness of the jig can be seen here where a fairly small handrail is being fitted.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:13 pm

A few other techniques with handrails. Using a square cut lolly stick- as a substitute for a steel ruler. If you do not have a small ruler or your big ruler is awkward to hold in certain situations try using a CUT DOWN STICK! Here one is used to measure against the drawing, the handrail holes on the smokebox side marked on to the stick with the stick end against the tank front on the drawing, then the stick is transferred to the smokebox side for marking up the dimensions.

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While on the boiler the boiler bands should be fitted - I just cut lengths of shim, put a curve tighter than the boiler diameter on them and then solder them in place using solder paste - again superglue would also work.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:45 pm

Footsteps come in all shapes and sizes, some quite complicated. The Barclay like so many other industrials, has no-nonsense ones. They are straight so no tricky shapes to cut out. They drop down then turn in slightly before turning the other way and carrying on down. They have a bottom step and a step near midway (just above) I make them from a strip of nickel silver as that is harder and will take knocks better. I have used some brass angle of the correct depth and width marking straight from the drawing for the upper step, but the lower step is formed by turning forward the bottom edge of the metal adding strips of rivets.

When marking out where the footsteps are going to go I ink up the areas where I do not want solder to end up, this will also cut down on the cleaning up as well. I use a permanent marker pen to do this and flux the bare metal before soldering the angles in place. This , before I bought myself a cheap set of helping hands was a tricky job to do. The photographs show the hands holding the steps as the individual steps are added in sequence. Photographs a bit dark due to the marker pen.

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This is the first step being assembled, the claws of the helping hands keeping all in position


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A heat sink clamp is put just below the first step to stop it coming off again when the second step's rivets are added


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The lower step rivets soldered in place using solder paste


If attaching buffers - once the buffers are ready to solder in place before adding heat place a heat sink of some kind between the buffer and the solder joint between the buffer beam and the footplate. You don't want a disaster at such a late stage, with the buffer beam falling off!

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Heat sink clamp used in this position to avoid dropping off the buffer beam

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:55 pm

On to the home straight now, the chimney was a great fit, it could be soldered into place or alternatively left bolted on, same with the dome, the salter safety valves required alteration to be correct. The base would have to be changed. The old one was cut off -sorry Alan Gibson, :cry: but it was for a Midland prototype, and a new one soldered on again using helping hands, before being bolted into place.

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The old base gets the chop


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The new base held by helping hands while being soldered up in a good light

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:27 pm

Once the top fitments are on straight then you are pretty near the final stages, any other very small items can be manufactured and stuck on; this when going back to the drawings and photos will bring up the small details not noticed before - whistles, pipes under the footplate and items under the boiler. details of the inside of the cab etc. A word of warning here do not assume that any locomotive that is running today has not been altered in some way for today's conditions - added vacuum brake or air brake,including associated pump and pipes. Additional pipes in the tender to allow filling via a fire engine hose is another case in point, noticed a couple of weeks ago hen in the cab of Green Arrow and taking photographs for a V2 I hope to build.

I still have the cab interior to build yet although I have a basic backhead and wooden floor fitted, temporary fashion, but I am waiting until the other two are assembled before I make a backhead mould and have a go at lost wax casting another two examples - not something for the beginner. There are backheads available if you just want to have something showing in the cab, but never take the roof off. A handbrake stanchion is another item for the cab as well as crew. These items are best left off at this stage and be made to be added after painting and so that is the stage I am leaving it at for a while again. We will look at finishing when the batch is complete and painted - hopefully by Christmas!

Here are some photos of the latter stages of the locomotive coming together, it isn't always pretty, but this is how things get made. I will spend hours doing final cleaning and finishing of rough edges here and there, but it is looking OK. :)

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Most of the top stuff in place, also lubricator on left side and handrail knobs used for handholds above the front footstep


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All boiler bands and water tank fillers in place ready for the final handrails to be put on


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Lamp irons and other small details added before the final handrails go in place. The Barclay has nice lines from all angles

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:40 pm

Adding handrails, I wanted the handrails to line up correctly so first put a wire through the entire length and soldered the knobs in place then soldered the rear rail , cut to length and pulled the remaining rail forward to form the front one and soldered and cut again.

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The knobs can be threaded on before fitting into the holes as here-

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Pieces of plasticine or bluetack can be used to hold things temporarily (I prefer Plasticine)

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And this is where it all started!

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Now the loco is to go for finishing, but will wait until the others are assembled, so no more photographs for a while

To be continued..................................................................................................................Christmas?

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:30 pm

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With some nice winter weather there has been some excuse for staying indoors and using the time to build models.


Well I did say it would be Christmas before I had time to do some work on the engines :!:

Firstly most of my spare time in September was taken up by preparing a stand for Scalefourum. Part of October I spent in China on an artists exchange

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This loco I found in Beijing in the middle of what had been a particularly interesting industrial area with canals, overhead cranes and rail yards which has been taken over by the arts and has now 100 galleries all set up in ex-industrial buildings - and that's not an exaggeration!


November was spent helping members of the starters group and building another locomotive entirely and before you know it Christmas had arrived.

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The locomotive I had been building was one of the smaller Barclays using one of the High Level kits. Spot the deliberate mistake! (Which will now be remedied.)


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Here is the original locomotive photographed when working at Methil alongside the WPR Barclays.
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Over the last fortnight I have at last been getting on with it, trying to get all three locomotives finished. So there is some progress to report over the next few days. Here we see the 2nd. and 3rd. Barclays coming together on the workbench.

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The two new locomotives take shape in the middle of the chaos of the workbench. I assembled the main engine parts first of all and took both locomotives up to this stage before detailing them one at a time.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:48 pm

Looking nice Allan!
Taken me since last Spring to get here....

2017-01-22 22.45.35.jpg

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:13 am

Hi Julian, :D

I am pleased to see your loco also coming on a treat. We might have both running on Calderside for the Glasgow show! I spent time on the loco, which is not a quick build, to see how it had been designed and have made alterations to the design for purely maintenance reasons which can only be seen form underneath and have left off details which would only be seen by turning the loco upside down - which of course asks certain questions about design. The starters group has several members who have been having a go at Chris's chassis and I thought it might be a good idea to have a go at the engine alongside what they are doing to see perhaps where things might take time and be less straightforward compared with a Comet chassis for instance. Chris's locos although small are beautifully detailed and meant for taking your time over so you have to realise that when buying, but not beyond the beginner-although the three members of the team who decided to have a go using them are the three who are at the catch up stage, but as I say that is no reflection on them it is just the kits require a bit more thinking about and have a high level of detail - which as S4 people we all tend to enjoy - once built :!: :( :D

I thought you had spotted the mistake with mine. :o :shock: I am sure within a couple of days someone will come up with it. Might just correct it, this morning, myself.

Looking at detail - I am debating whether to put in the footplate angle brackets on my own Barclays which will probably take me most of a day just to make and fit - it is one of the things about detail - most model locos have done without the things, but they are noticeable by their absence at the bare metal stage. Once painted and naturally in shadow the lack of them is not noticeable in photographs - however I have posted photos showing them on the fourum here and I suppose most will expect me to model them and "Get it all right" - I wonder if Jim has them fitted to all of his locos :idea: :?: - must have a look.

There is always a question as to how far you go when detailing a model - and I am building 3 locos at the same time! Some of the detail really does matter as No.16 which was the first of the class had different length and shape of tanks compared to the following locos. There are very visible differences in small details that help to give individual character and even how the real life locos differed after a number of strip downs and reassemblies.

It all comes down to personal choice, but you do have to make choices and once a loco is at the painting stage it is more difficult to add anything.

I have started on the cab details for the three, but not sure if anyone starting would be interested in going that far, but I do know that those who have built a number of engines and are experienced in such things do have a look at this thread and may be expecting something along these lines and since completeness matters with a thread like this then I will include the info.

The cab details are going to be made up as a separate unit for ease of painting and will be retro fitted after the locos have gone through the paint shop. It may be that I do not get the interior fittings done at this time of the year as there are other priorities coming up including a building for Burntisland as well as helping to finish our West Group extension for Glasgow - so I can see a busy couple of weeks coming up. :|

Could be half way through making the brackets by now, so will shut up and get on with it. :D Decision made!

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:43 pm

Hi Allan - I can't see the mistake unless it's what you were talking to me about last week.

~What are footplate angle brackets?

You are always SO encouraging!!!

I'm just not bothered about stuff that can't be seen. I'd much rather spend the time making things work. Then, seen from what distance? From more than three feet my sight is too poor to see most of what I spend hours modelling. But if I'm making a model, I like to make it as good as I can from sensible angles, close up.

It's partly a question of how it's painted. If the brake gear is painted black it's relatively invisible at an exhibition - but realistic weathering can actually be quite light colours so will make the gear much more worth putting there. Here are photos one with flash one without - so the light makes such a difference too.

I'm waiting for your promised class on weathering. Meanwhile since last night I have put on Carr's chemical blackening. I don't reckon I will have time to paint this chassis before the Glasgow exhibition. But I'm quite interested in how well this has come out - one or two little bits I've missed. I've run out of the steel one, but the brass and NS blacking seems to have worked well enough on the steel wheels. What I don't know is whether this blacking has ruined the surface for taking proper paint if I want to do that in due course.

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On this loco I have with trepidation and reluctance butchered Chris' beautiful chassis to enable pick ups to work on top of the wheels - but the butchery can't be seen unless looking at it from below the footplate valance.

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I've done it as per Chris' instructions. The brake gear is removable, as is the cylinder/motion bracket/connecting rod assembly, and the wheels can all drop out, and the compensation beams. But to put it all together again would take me about an hour with very good light! - partly because of my freelance design of compensation beams.


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