West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:43 pm

DSC04111.JPG
I temporarily tack the cab back in place and mark where I think the coal bunker hole is going to go. Easier to decide after the floor has been fitted. I mark this out using a scriber ruler and square after making a few guestimation marks! Info on this may not be to hand. somemay not bother, but I mark and then desolder the back and mark out properly and cut out the hole.


DSC04112.JPG
Having cut out the hole then the cab back is re-tacked in place and the apperture checked for size.


DSC04114.JPG
Taking the sizes directly I mark out pieces of angle to make the shovel plate and sides to the aperture.


DSC04115.JPG
Here are the shovel plate and sides fitted inside the hole, note the sides taper.


DSC04116.JPG
Here the soldering which will be hidden in the coal bunker of the loco. Again I decided it would be easier to do at this stage before the rear of the bunker is soldered on.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:09 pm

If all is ftting squarely I take the opportunity of adding more tacks and finally finishing off and cleaning up all around befoe the next steps. :) This loco has gone well so far,but then there are no taper boilers or strange shapes, like the A4 I built many years ago. :o

DSC04117.JPG
Here is the backhead being made. I again have used apiece of paper to go around the shape of the d of the boiler where it enters thecab and based on that I have cut a length of meal and bent it around something about the same diamete - a piece of boiler tube. This has been tightened up a little and two curves put in to simulate the change into the bottom of the firebox. again the shape is checked for fit and tweeked into place. Once I am happy with it I solder it to a flat piece of metal which will form the face plate.


DSC04118.JPG
Here it is fitted in place, but not fnally fitted as there will be much detail to fit before that happens. Looks fine though!


DSC04119.JPG
I have fitted the rear of the bunker and now I am trying out the chimney, dome and safety valves to make sure the sit correctly on the boiler.


DSC04121.JPG
Yep another angle and it is looking good with everything sitting properly as it should be. Double check the front view, with all fitments off and add them from the back of the boiler coming forward, finally the chimney, making sure each in turn sits properly on top of the boiler

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:14 pm

In my first scratchbuild all these years ago I did my turnings at the local school and did a short course of lathe working. Being an art teacher also meant that I had access to the technical department in my own school and for a while I did that as an alternative to buying my own lathe. Eventually I was left a small lathe by my friend Jim Pugh when he died which has lasted all these years.

Now I intended showing how to make these parts as part of the build, but unfortunately my lathe packed in just as I started. The power unit had gone caput :!: :shock: It left me with a problem as I was wanting to get on with the locos - so I found myself in the same position as a beginner in not having a key piece of equipment, so I first looked around for alternatives amongst my collection of whitemetal chimneys, domes, safety valves that could be altered, there were several candidates, then I had a look to see if there was anything available in various parts lists on the internet - Alan Gibson had a nice set of safety alves as a casting which culd be cut down and used, the dome could be cut and filed from a length of brass rod - easy enough as the dome is of a very simple type. Chimney's may be available from Chris Gibbons as he does a version of the smaller version of the Barclay - there was the alternative of turning three up using a drill and files - which I have had to do on a couple of occasions.

It was while pondering what to do that my good friend Bob Hetherington phoned me for a chat. I mentioned what had happened and bemoaned the demise of my motor and Bob said to send him a drawing and he would turn them up as he was about to run off a number of pieces for another loco he was building. So I have to thank Bob for the making of the chimneys, domes and bases for the safety valves. I bought 3 safety valves from Alan Gibson and cut them down and soldered them to the safety valve mounts which Bob kindly made. :)

I would like to thank Bob publicly :thumb and not pretend I did them myself and hope I may find time to do a demo of how to go about making these parts without a lathe. It was only within days that the parts arrived from Bob, which allowed me to get all the main metal parts cut out and the loco assembled up to this stage. Since then I have managed to get a replacement motor and will show how I went about making some of the other items required. Bob also followed up by sending me some pressure dials for the cab as he was making a batch for himself - all of which were of course were gratefully received. :D

This is as much time as I have this week as I am trying to get Dubbieside ready for Glasgow next weekend. It is going there as one of the two layouts which were around in the early 1970's. The other layout which is going is my old friend Richard Chown's Rackrent - the first section. (Irish Broad Gauge -7mm) If you are a Scalefour Soc member introduce yourself and we will have a chat at the layout. I will be very pleased to see you.

DSC04122.JPG
At this stage I normally check the fit of the boiler fittings. Most builders start with the making of these parts on a lathe. In my case I had just started the turnings at the beginning of the building of the loco and my lathe's power unit packed in! So I found myself in the same situation as a beginner and did not have a lathe to do anything with!

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:04 pm

It has been a couple of weeks since I posted anything, but I have been busy first with the Glasgow Show where Dubieside was appearing as one of the earliest P4 layouts in Scotland at the 50th Glasgow show.http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=578&p=44629#p44629

Dubbie has taken up much of my time in recent months as it had comeback from the previous show in Cathcart in a fairly battered state. It was quite some time ago since I started the East of Scotland Group, so I thought it was about time I started something new and have started a new group intended for those who want to build a layout for themselves at home - more of that anon. :thumb

All this is outwith the strand we have here so I will add a bit more tonight and see how far I can take it before Morpheus takes over.

DSC04124.JPG
I photographed the body shell alongside one of the J83's. The Wemyss System almost had several of these instead of purchasing new Barclays

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:41 pm

As I am writing this up some considerable time after the work it is easy to forget things such as how long it took to get my lathe re-motored. The previous photograph showed the chimney and other boiler furniture placed. It was at least a month before I had my lathe working again. I do not intend this thread to be a class on lathe work as such - it has been covered elsewhere in the Fourum and suggestions given as to where to find examples on the internet. However, lathe fixed, I decided to make the locos smokebox doors using the lathe. If you do not have a lathe and I am not expecting you to necessarily, it is perfectly possible to make a Barclay smokebox door just by cutting out a disc of material the right thickness, drilling a hole for the smokebox dart in the middle(best doing this before cutting the door from the material). There are a number of smokebox darts available from the trade if you do not want to make one. Carefully work around the edge with a good file to form the curved edge. Fortunately the door on these is pretty flat compared to most types which are far more dished.

A lathe will give a more accurate curve perhaps and perhaps save you some time, but each method requires care if the smokebox is to look right. So here is my lathe cut one.

DSC04125.JPG
Start by turning the metal to the correct outer diameter and clean off the front face of the brass bar. As you can see from the photograph I have already drilled a hole for the smokebox dart.


DSC04126.JPG
Check and mark the depth required for the Smokebox door


DSC04127.JPG
The edge has been curved using a cutting tool and then a separating tool set to cut at right angles is used to cut in from behind,


DSC04128.JPG
Here I am using a wooden lolly stick with fine emery paper to finish off the curved edge and take any roughness away. Notice I have not cut in particularly deep at this stage to give the metal support as I do this.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:57 pm

Continuing on........

DSC04129.JPG
Take the parting tool in as far as you may want to. Personally I try to cut until it is about to fall off and switch off the machine before finally parting using a saw. I have found that if items fly off the deck they do tend to get damaged.


DSC04130.JPG
Here comes the saw!


DSC04132.JPG
Here we see the rear of the door, looks a bit unkind cutting like this, but this is the side that you will not see.


So this is all for tonight, so at least one little turning job, just as a taster. Next week I will have a look at rivits and the use of a simple riviting tool and start to look at some of the details on the Barclay.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :oops:

DougN
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:57 am

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby DougN » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:34 am

Allan, thanks for the photos I have always wondered how you part things off on a lathe. :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:29 pm

It is now time to look at some photographs to see exactly what the details are on the real thing. The engine we will be looking at is in a bit of a state unfortunately, but I believe it is going to be the next to be refurbished - hope I live long enough to see it! :) Close up we can see much more than any of the photographs I have seen in books so far. Needless to say since I started to build my own locos there has been a kit produced - there are photos on the web and it was based on work done by Pete Westwater - a superb locomotive builder, maybe not so well known down south, but the first person to exhibit a P4 layout in Scotland, perhaps in Britain. - more of this some other time.

As this is for beginners can I say that you should not expect to get every detail modelled in 4mm as this is very difficult, larger gauges of course would allow more fine detail. Could I suggest that even working in a good light with a magnifier you can only do your best even then - ignore "getting it all right" there are, and always will be, some limitations - will you be treating the grass and weeds at the side of the track with the same detail? So it is a case of choosing just what you feel will do the trick for your model.

Something purely to put on show may require more than a working engine for a layout. Really fine detail on working models will come off if too fine or not soldered on properly. Just enjoy building and take your time adding the detail. The pleasure of accomplishment is more important. :) I remember my first scratchbuild a little squint here and there, but what fun! Still my favourite loco after all these years. ;)

DSC01896.JPG
RHS Front end
DSC01896.JPG (222.82 KiB) Viewed 5962 times


DSC01897.JPG
RHS Rear end
DSC01897.JPG (245.28 KiB) Viewed 5962 times


DSC01898.JPG
These photographs reveal just how much there is under the footplate
DSC01898.JPG (259.63 KiB) Viewed 5962 times


DSC01899.JPG
Close up of the same area
DSC01899.JPG (217.89 KiB) Viewed 5962 times


DSC01900.JPG
Some stuff you just can't get to!
DSC01900.JPG (189.25 KiB) Viewed 5962 times

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:34 pm

Well here we go, I have not posted PDF's on the site before, but there is always a first time,the photographs are taken by my son and should help anyone building one of these locomotives make a well detailed model, (including of course those who have bought the new kit.) :( Ah Well! :D That's life. there are a number of PDF's I will put up, the first two are in black and white.

I will also put up some colour samples I have taken myself, some time in the next couple of days. ;) Do not feel you have to add all the details you can see - in that direction lies madness. Select what seems to bring the loco nearer to life and what might be practical for the scale. Please let me know if there are any problems in downloading from the site. :shock:

Dave is happy for anyone to use his photographs to build a model, but would ask if you could ask permission if they are to be published elsewhere.

WPR 20 BW part 1.pdf
Here is part one of a downloadable PDF covering B/W versions of detail photographs of N0.20 by my son Dave
(3.02 MiB) Downloaded 120 times


WPR 20 BW part 2.pdf
Here is part 2 of the B/W versions
(1.99 MiB) Downloaded 90 times

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:49 pm

Now for the colour photographs. I am hoping that those of you who would like to either scratch build as I have, or kit build will produce better locos than I as I only managed to take these photographs after I had pretty much built the locomotives - however that is life and probably an incentive to someone who may go one better. :) Good luck! :thumb In time most things get better - just as well as I am pleased not to have Victorian dentristry! :P

Some very useful photographs if you want a fully detailed cab -

WPR 20 Col part 1.pdf
Hoping this is useful if building one of these beasts
(2.18 MiB) Downloaded 104 times


Quite a bit of under the footplate stuff -

WPR 20 col part 2.pdf
Final batch of photographs - mainly under the footplate
(1.69 MiB) Downloaded 88 times


please note that the livery is not necessarily the late WPR livery, rather an earlier one which the SRPS painted during her time in Falkirk.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:57 pm

Astonished how many downloads have be taken down from the site within a few days! I will be very interested to see what models come from this over the next year or two - maybe it is just people wanting to detail the kit that has become available recently. :) On the other hand you may be having a go at a simple locomotive for your first scratch build. Everything fairly straightforward so far I hope.

Now if you have had a look at the detail photographs you may have noted just how many rivits there are. Despite being an industrial locomotive the Barclay has few rivits showing most have been made flush with the top surface. This is the first point where rivits are required, other locomotives may need them at an earlier stage. It is not necessary to make them by punching with some form of tool. It is possible to add rivits at a later stage using acrylic rivits. We will look at this later.

I use the Ganderson drop riviting tool. This consists of a small shaped anvil which has interchangeable formers which allow for different sizes of rivit head. There is a supported pointed tool which has marks up the shaft and a dropper weight which when it drops hits a ring which goes around the about a quarter of the way up the pointed tool. Different dropping positions on the shaft allow for different thicknesses of metal. The thicker the metal the higher the drop . Consistant rivits can be created this way. There are more expensive options available. You may also want to pass on making rivits at this stage-acrylic rivits can be added at the painting stage. There is also the chance of geting the rivits wrong :cry: - try out your technique on a spare piece of metal - the same thickness as being used on the model. :thumb

So this is how I did mine-

DSC04139.JPG
Here the metal is being fed through the anvil. I mark out the position of the rivits with a scriber or soft pencil.


DSC04141.JPG
What we are looking at here is the strip of rivits which will be attached to the framing that protudes out in front of the smokebox.


DSC04142.JPG
Checking the fit of the bufferbeam and marking out the rivit positions.


DSC04143.JPG
I have marked the positions on the drawing which is attached to the metal and now punch out the rivits on the paper side as the riviting is a mirror image and allows me to do so.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:52 pm

I fitted the bufferbeam with the chassis held under the locomotive as can be seen in the photographs.The chassis can be taped to the loco for handling, if necessary.

DSC04144.JPG
Here is a close up of the bufferbeam ready for fitting.


DSC04145.JPG
This photograph shows the two items after soldering in place. The buffer beam should be checked for squareness in all dimentions - it is one of the things that can so easily let down a model. A pair of helping hands can be useful as we have used elsewhere.


DSC04146.JPG
The front end seen from the other side of the locomotive. There has been no cleaning up at this stage. Excess solder can be scraped away using steel scrapers or if you have a dremmel tool that can also be used.
Scraping has the advantage of not harming the surface of the brass or nickle silver. A dremmel needs careful use so as not to cut away at the metal. The amount of solder seen here is a bit more than I normally like to have to scrape away. However most books show everything cleaned up giving a false impression.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:52 am

There is going to be a hiatus in this project for a few months at least and if you are following this thread I must apologise for this, but contrary to the impression of continuity that a regular upload once a week gives, there has been no work done on the engines over the last two years. I was being really productive at the time, producing loads of wagons planned for my next layout, since then nothing! :(

The locomotives are standing unfinished (although the one being followed is nearly at completion.) All the work done on them was done some time ago, before my operation laid me low for a while ( It turned out that I was allergic to the pain killers, fortunately I recognised the symptoms as my father nearly died due to the same problem and although I went through a fairly rough time I did not end up so damaged as my father was.) I was recovering after that when I went down with the 'flu and then my mother's long illness and death took away all of my modelling time as I travelled over to see her each day over a period of 4/5 months. More recently, having recovered, house redecoration and a workshop no longer available has meant no progress, then illness at Christmas again and then a rush to repair Dubbieside after damage from the previous exhibition to make it OK for Glasgow and since then redecorating my workroom and now working on our bedroom will clearly take up my time until I can get it finished and my workshop back up and running. So two years without any productivity! :cry:

I still have photographs of further parts being made, but just getting back to normal is taking longer than I had hoped, made apparent to me by my letting down a good friend who has been waiting months for me to do a paint job on his locos. So I have decided to give this thread a break with the hope that I may find time later in the year to complete. I absolutely hate letting anyone down, particularly friends that I value greatly and really do not want to let anyone down who is following this either, so until I manage to get my normal life back I am signing off for a while.

User avatar
Andy W
Posts: 825
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 8:11 am

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Andy W » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:55 pm

Allan, please just concentrate on getting better and putting your life in order. We're only building model railways! Although this hobby is an important part of our lives, it's an aid to sanity rather than stress. I for one will look forward to the day you start posting again - I'm sure it will be well worth the wait. Very best wishes.

Andy
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

DougN
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:57 am

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby DougN » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:06 am

Allan, I hope this means as the house is just about fully redecorated it isn't about to be put up for sale :twisted: !

it is one thing about modelling there are times when a lot happens and then nothing for ages... we all understand that this is a past time when the inclination and available time meet in the same place at the same time! I hope that this happens for you sooner than later. But as you say commitments have to be completed for the nearest and dearest before the big wide world gets the next installment! We will all still be here and you have done really well so far!

all power to you
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Julian Roberts
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:42 am

Allan - it has been a brilliant series. The chief thing I have been getting from this is that building from scratch is a practical possibility, not a remote never to be attained eventuality, and that I may be able to do a scratch build myself some day. You take the mystery out of it to bring it down to us mortals. I especially liked the mysterious round copper thing that was used at the front of the boiler....!

So thank you very much, and I am sure we all look forward to when you do have time to resume. I am mystified how you find time to do all the things you do for so many people, myself included, even in retirement.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed May 25, 2016 10:46 am

Following up the Foryou, Forme, Fourum report in the Scalefour News by Will, he will be pleased to know that I intend to continue on with section 3 here in about three to four weeks, after some reconstruction of my workshop which is making good progress. So this break has only been temporary and I hope to be able to find time to continue the write up soon. So for those searching this thread out for the first time and for those who have been following and making use of it, it will not be too long a break. :)
I would like to thank Will for pointing the Scalefour News readers in this direction again. :thumb I may start a new workshop thread for myself after this thread is completed, provided I get into a more productive mode again. :D

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:08 pm

After some time.............

We left off with the fitting of the buffer beams and the use of riveting tools. Having made occasional checks to see how the body fits as I go along, just for assurance that things are progressing OK. It is now time to check just how the chassis is going to fit. It is not just a case of making sure the chassis fits within the two buffer beams. On this loco it is fairly simple as there are no splashers to add complications and all the wheels are below footplate level. Worth checking that they are going to be in the correct position just the same, so you may have to take amounts off both fore and aft.

Looking at the photograph below the chassis just fits nicely. :) If all your measuring has been correct this is what you may expect, however small amounts can be filed away from the leading edges and rear edges of the frames if necessary. Remember that care was taken at the chassis construction stage that the front edges matched, as well as, the rear when setting up so,if it is necessary then take equal amounts off each side. I would measure and mark both sides before taking anything off. It is good practice to make sure that the buffer beam is at right angles to the footplate and all square and that the chassis also takes up a position at right angles to the buffer beam and parallel to the footplate. Buffer beams, being red, tend to show up if they are set incorrectly and can spoil completely the front view of the locomotive if set at an angle. So examine everything carefully at this stage.

DSC04147.JPG
Trial fit of chassis to locomotive body. Although the frames have a hole for attaching to the body, I will use another form of attachment as will be seen later.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:57 pm

Turning to the other end. Having checked the fit of the front check the fit of the other end. I have not added any buffer supports at this stage as I want to be able to fit the chassis in the correct position before doing anything like supports. Supports can be added much later if desired. Note there is a hole prepared in the rear of the chassis to allow the chassis to be attached to the body. In this case the screw will come through the bottom of the coal bunker, as we shall see. If you have been heavy on the solder at the back of the buffer beam you may have to clear some of it. If you intend leaving some of it as a fillet for strength then a small angle can be taken off the top corner of the chassis - it will be hidden after all. It is important that the solder does not force the chassis to twist, but to sit four square on to the body. Even if you have full springing or compensation this is not a good idea as the twist will show in ether the front or the back view, even if the chassis continues to function OK mechanically. You have also made a big effort to get the mechanics just so you do not want any compromise at this stage.

DSC04148.JPG
Checking the fit of the rear end. If you have been careful with your measurement then you may get just as accurate a fit. Care marking and cutting always pays off in the end.


The next thing to check on is that the chassis runs truly through the centre line of the engine, before marking and drilling any holes in the body to allow attachment of the chassis. I decided with this one that a screw in the bunker and a bracket in the front would be best. The reason being that a screw at the front end would be difficult to disguise or to deal with if it came adrift at a later date. At least the bunker allows for re-fixing if the screw for some reason should fail. A front fixing screw is possible on some engines and I will look at this later and give some suggestions.

DSC04149.JPG
I equalise the distance in from the edge of the footplate and I do this both front and aft. Tape in place the chassis once central if you have to. Fortunately the fit here is just right and no tape was required.


DSC04150.JPG
A nice tight fit and all looks well. Now to mark and drill the rear hole in the body for fixing.


DSC04155.JPG
The hole drilled and a bolt fitted and soldered in place.


DSC04156.JPG
This shows the clumsy top view, but better too much solder than too little! Make sure the screw is soldered in so that is vertical.

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:34 pm

Now to tackle the front of the locomotive. I only have one photograph of this but it is obvious how the bent angle strip fits neatly behind the buffer beam. This gets soldered with the chassis in place. I use a fairly flexible brass L strip so that it makes it fairly easy to slot the chassis out and in. Too deep and you may have trouble separating the two. :cry:

The strip is cut so that it is just slightly less than the spacing between the chassis sides. The chassis is first placed exactly where it should go then a piece of cigarette paper placed between the chassis cross member and the strip. Hold in place using an old paint brush handle or similar. Apply flux to the joint between the strip and the buffer beam. Apply solder to the joint and be careful not to apply too much heat - don't want to have the buffer beam come adrift. :shock: The use of brass strip allows the heat to transfer along it quicker than the nickel silver. A pair of helping hands can come in use here to act as additional heat sinks towards the ends of the buffer beam. :idea:

DSC04154.JPG
The bracket will hold the chassis in place at the front.


Just check that it all fits together as planned and put a washer and nut on the rear bolt, tighten and check for all being square and no twists in the chassis. If no issues then that is the engine ready for the enjoyable stage of adding detail. :D

Julian Roberts
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:52 am

Great to see your series back Allan!
Although all the foregoing has been new to me, this last bit is where I have been many times, effectively scratchbuilding, fitting a chassis made from Gibson mainframes to an old kit designed for an existing RTR chassis.
One thing I do differently is from my experience of the necessity of frequently attaching and detaching the chassis to/from the body. Fiddling around with the nut getting it onto the bolt and then laboriously doing it up with pliers drove me...nuts!
I fix a nut onto the body and another on the chassis. The one on the chassis holds the bolt when it is unscrewed from the body. Attaching/detaching is just done with a screwdriver.
Soldering it all on has to be done very carefully if the lot isn't going to be soldered solid. I am skipping every detail here...The bolt's screw thread is covered with permanent marker pen many times, and screwed back and forth through the nut several times, with a new layer of marker pen "ink" each time, so that both threads are thoroughly covered in this "ink". Only then can I put it all together and solder the nuts on without soldering the bolt too. Time consuming but a lot quicker than cutting it all apart...
A quicker way of getting the threads thoroughly masked but yet leaving the rest of the nut able to be soldered down would be nice...

User avatar
Allan Goodwillie
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:27 pm

Hi Julian,

Hugo Carr used to have a product which you could paint on - possibly a form of graphite grease, which formed a barrier when soldering. It was very effective and very useful when dealing with other tricky jobs, particularly around valve gear. I have run out otherwise I would pass some on to you to try. He also sold a heat resistant tape which allowed the taping of things together while they were soldered in place.

I like your idea and can see the point in doing it that way. As an alternative, if you are using small nuts and bolts is a clutch pencil which takes larger leads. I have one which was used to draw with crayon-type leads produced by Rexel, probably no longer available. With a clutch pencil you simply pop the nut into the pencil end and allow the pencil clutch end to close around it. It is then easy to fit and tighten around the screw. In emergencies I sometimes use a small piece of blutack on the end of a paintbrush to place a nut into its place and coax it on to the bolt, tricky if the engine has a trailing wheel or bogie.

I have a number of locos where I have a threaded hole in the underside of the body and that matches with a hole in the cross member of the frame. You then simply screw the bolt through one and into the other. It does mean having a tap of the correct size of course to do this. Easy enough for the beginner to do, but here we are covering the simpler solutions with the minimum of equipment. Your method is good as it achieves the same end but uses the components easily available.

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1700
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Will L » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:33 pm

Like Julian I definitely prefer captive nuts to captive bolts.

Julian Roberts wrote:Soldering it all on has to be done very carefully if the lot isn't going to be soldered solid. I am skipping every detail here...The bolt's screw thread is covered with permanent marker pen many times, and screwed back and forth through the nut several times, with a new layer of marker pen "ink" each time, so that both threads are thoroughly covered in this "ink". Only then can I put it all together and solder the nuts on without soldering the bolt too. Time consuming but a lot quicker than cutting it all apart...
A quicker way of getting the threads thoroughly masked but yet leaving the rest of the nut able to be soldered down would be nice...


An alternatively quick and easy method is to hold the nut in place with a wooden cocktail stick while you solder. Screw the stick through the nut first so the stick also locates the nut against the hole in the the plate your soldering to. Use plenty of solder and get it all good and hot, as a lightly soldered captive nut will often come adrift particularly when in an inaccessible places.The nut will burn its way to a good fit on the stick but no solder will get into the thread. To guild the lilly, I usually solder the nut to a hole slightly smaller than the bolt size and finish off by running a tap through the nut and thus extending the thread through the plate the nut is soldered too. That way your even less likely to find your captive nut isn't any more...

Oh yes, and the captive nut and the thing you bolting to it should always be on opposite sides of the plate you solder the nut to. Expecting the solder joint to be strong enough to hold when they are on the same side is expecting too much.

Terry Bendall
Posts: 1683
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:23 am

There is a very easy way of dealing with a nut where solder has run into the threads. Put a tap through afterwards! Will's idea of holding the nut with a cocktail stick is a good one and I do what he suggests with the hole through the metal to which the nut is soldered. Works every time.

No need for any special grease to stop solder flowing. Any grease used to lubricate machines or things on the car will do. I have a tim which I bought about 30 years ago which still has enough in it for the rest of whatever I shall do.

Terry Bendall

Julian Roberts
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:48 pm

Thanks Will Allan and Terry for these suggestions. Regarding using grease, I tried Vaseline in the past and found it tended to spread when heat was applied and get onto the surface I was trying to solder. I spoke with Allan on Tuesday, telling him my Carr's Solder Mask was the consistency of boot polish that had been left with the lid off - just pretty solid and not spreadable. It is something I had mentally discounted as a (not expensive) unsuccessful purchase.

Yes Will I have tried that cocktail stick idea and am not sure why I seem to have not continued with that, I must try that again. In general, however, I do think that turning the air blue in the privacy of one's own home getting this set up is better than (in my case) turning the air blue at an exhibition trying to get the d....d nut onto the bolt! Allan you have much more patience than me, I am sure you would never do such a thing!


Return to “Starting in P4”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest