West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:34 pm

Interesting Julian,

I note that the centre pickups are contacting the wheel rim whereas the others are contacting the running surface, which tends to pick up dirt. Maybe there is enough space to get in and clean them when they clog.

While we are talking about Chris's High Level Barclays I will show you the pickups on mine as well as the brackets I was talking about - you have built it with the brackets by the way. Chris is very naughty in that he gives very full and excellent construction notes and then leaves the builder to work out what to do about the pickups! For beginners that can be an obstacle as well as the confusion caused by the number of parts many of which are redundant items for 00 and EM. (Nothing wrong in providing them- but for someone who is just starting out it could be off-putting.)

DSC01494.JPG


As you can see I have used a strip of the very fine copper-clad material which Eileen's have started to sell. On one side I have simply added pickups soldered to the brass keeper plate and the other side uses the thin copper-clad material to solder the pickups on to. It works well and none of this arrangement can be seen from normal viewing angles. It allows enough space for the brake gear etc. to go just where it should be in real life. This was purely an experiment, but I still prefer to make my pickups as shown elsewhere in the thread as they are almost invisible and do not have to be disengaged if taking the baseplate off.

DSC01495.JPG


In the centre of the image above you can see one of the triangular brackets I have been talking about. This one is not just a straight angle, it is in fact made with two angles to clear the coupling rods. In the model you can see daylight between the bracket and the underside of the tank/footplate. Probably sensible to do it this way as few will see the space which would not be there in real life. In the end I did not go down that way today, preferring to add detail which can be seen, thought I would have had it all on by now! :cry:

You were right by the way, we did discuss the locomotive when I saw you last, so we will see if anyone else sees what is wrong. :x

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:54 pm

So far, I have had one reply behind the scenes commenting upon the fact that the pipework from the injectors to the boiler running along under the footplate are missing - this is true, but did not show up in the photograph of the engine taken from above - so the matter of in-correctness still stands. :cry: as against something missing intentionally, being unnoticeable from normal angles - which brings us back to how much detail to add and what people feel should be there. I feel suitably chastened for not getting it all right. :cry: I will add the pipes! At least it is not a major job and we will both be happy again.

Before someone else comments about the fact that I have hidden the internal valve equipment which comes with the kit by using a keeper plate, I would mention that with this particular locomotive it can only be seen from below in the first place, so nothing is being lost from the normal viewing position. I did post photographs of the Wemyss Barclay that had an accident for anyone wishing to have a go at the cranks and valve gear if they wish.

If we are going down that route then most locomotive models would be considered failures in the "getting it all right" department. I know of only one modeller who builds live steam S4 locomotives - but they are not coal fired and have tubeless boilers - so even he, despite his wonderful skills can't quite get to the "getting it all right" level - I believe the problem was getting a driver and fireman small enough to shovel coal and drive the locomotive - however someone......... my friend Pete Westwater who is also building a 00 model of the Wemyss system did build a layout during the 1970's, which had all living scenery made from mosses etc. and had to be watered to keep it alive - it stayed growing for two years until something fatal happened to it. :shock:

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:38 am

Hi Allan

Apologies for brevity and delay. The pick ups I have on one of my locos that bear against the wheel backs seem to get just as much crud on them as those that act on the tread... They're quite easy to clean in either case.

I think Chris' instructions are fine regarding the 00 EM and P4 options. I think it's just rather amusing he leaves us to decide ourselves on pick ups. He suggests going from the underneath like you have.

Here is a pic or two of mine underneath showing how the brakes attach but are detachable at the rear, they just clip on. I think I need to quiz you a bit more about how you did yours but another time...

2017-01-12 15.55.32 (Large).jpg



2017-01-20 10.53.14 (Large).jpg

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:11 am

Hi Julian, :)

I too have made up the brake gear and cylinder assembly as Chris has suggested and fitted the pickups to the keeper plate, which is not my normal way of doing things.

It has been an interesting exercise to show a "deliberate mistake". I was curious to see just what people would come up with and how they would reply on the fourum. No one has made a direct posting so far, but I have had one or two emails behind the scenes. I suppose no one wants to be seen to getting it wrong, however, I have had a couple of emails from one member who is very eagle eyed and picked up on the missing pipework below the footplate and who has now picked up upon the clack valves going into the side of the boiler, being different on the prototype photograph from what is now on the model.

I had fitted Chris's clack valves before spotting they were different in the photograph. It seemed a pity to cut off the little wheels on Chris's ones after I fitted them - I was hoping I might come across an earlier photo which might still have the earlier valves fitted. My guess is that this may have been done around the time that the chimney was replaced, but have left them on in the hope there may have been an in-between stage - looks like they may have to come off though! - It may be someone out there has just such a photo, if so, I would love to see it. I have a photograph of its more conventional sister engine which also worked at Methil and will go back and see if I can find it.

I am looking forward to a few more corrections as the more glaring one has not been picked up on yet. Happy :D to take emails behind the scenes and appreciating those I have received so far as they all are useful for improving the model. Those of you out there who make models and show them publicly will know only too well that once something has been built it is often scrutinised for faults and you can bet that if you have built a building for example there will always be someone who had the view you really wished for when building the said building and who may even bring it along to the show to prove you wrong! :cry:

On Dubbieside I have a model of the harbour masters office from Kirkcaldy and had Dubbie at the St.Andrews show one time. One young fellow turned up and immediately recognised the building and we got talking. It turned out that his father had been the harbour master there during the 50's and 60's and I said to him it would have been lovely to have met him. He said to me "I will go and get him he is here." Within a minute the gentleman was with me and was telling me all about his job there and at other harbours in the Fife area. When we got down to the actual model he commented that I had managed as far as he could remember to get everything correct, however I did have one question. I was curious about the small upper storey room. What was it used for in the building. He said that he did not know as he had never been upstairs in the building at anytime during the 20 odd years he had worked there! If it had been me I would have been up there first morning! So I have never found out exactly why the building had this strange little upper storey. My guess was for observing ships out to sea prior to them coming in to harbour. Maybe someone out there knows the answer to the particular mystery.

If someone turns up with a piece of vital knowledge that is missing from your model, that's fine, you have added to your own knowledge and maybe even have found a friend who has the same enthusiasm for the subject you are modelling. So do not be downhearted, put away the immediate disappointment, be thankful!

It should always be kept in mind by those who make comments that all modellers do put their heart and soul into the models they make, if you make models yourself you will know this. My friends in the starters group have been a little bit hesitant about posting their comments on what they are building and the errors and re-workings they maybe have had to do to correct and get things right on their first engines, but all they are experiencing is the way models evolve and what they learn in the doing of, which is common to all of us, myself included. ;)

There will always be the odd individual, we have all come across them at exhibitions, who can tell you all that is wrong in a model, but who have never put anything of their own into the public gaze, but who will criticise often quite loudly to show off their "superior" knowledge. :shock: If this should happen to you, well just say to yourself "pair soul" as my grannie used to say and remember that the vast majority are not like that and really do appreciate the things you get right. I, myself am constantly inspired by models built by Scalefour modellers and others who also like to work to a good standard in other scales and gauges - it is all wonderful!

The truth is we are all "improver's" and from top to bottom should be considered as such. I hope I have not put anyone off replying to the original question however as all replies have been very positive and in the right spirit. I have mentioned no names as they have all been private emails so far and I will continue to respect anonymity, but do appreciate all the time individuals have put in to reply so far. :)

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:31 pm

I have had another couple of entries for the locomotive "fault" behind the scenes. One reply suggested that the smokebox wrapper is not quite right and another that the cab has an internal sliding shutter and the model has outside guides for an outside shutter which is wrong for the engine. Certainly the engine had at least two shutter versions during its time and I had fitted the cab sides before realising I should have eliminated the guides. The brass is very thin and may distort now if I try to eliminate it, however the real howler is still there!

Again thanks for trying chaps,hope you are enjoying the challenge, I am sure someone will get it soon. :) been busy working all day finishing one of the larger Barclays, hope to complete the final body tomorrow if I manage to find the time. I still have one of the chassis to complete before painting them.

Allan

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:19 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:The truth is we are all "improver's" and from top to bottom should be considered as such


Very true. Like Allan I spent much of my working life as a teacher and my thought for the day is "Learn something new every day." It is surprising how true this is and in my teaching days sometimes I would learn from my pupils which is an interesting experience.

I had an interesting lesson from Dave Carter a few months back. He spotted the ratchet straps holding down the rail load onto a Sturgeon wagon. These are blue and are made from the plastic carrier bag from a well known supermarket. Dave mentioned that there are different colours of strap depending on the load rating that they are designed for and mine were the wrong colour! ;) They are still in place! :D

Terry Bendall

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:14 pm

:) Now to catch up a bit on what I have been doing over the last few weeks. Most of my time has been spent on assembling the bodies of the other two large Barclays I have been building. I decided it was about time I finished them off. Illness made me take a back seat for quite a bit of time over the last two years as well as family matters, but then again that's life.

It has been good to get to the detailing stage with all three locomotives, although they are still requiring some finishing before painting. Tomorrow I want to complete the third chassis and then I may make the decision to paint, but that is debatable. :|

I realise that this thread is for beginners and I do not want to put anyone off doing anything and I would suggest that the detailing stage is where much time can be taken up just adding more and more. On the one hand it is pleasurable, on the other, if you are intending building a layout then time may be a limitation. Time is a limitation for me as well and I will have to decide just what level I am going to be content with. The layout is booked, I understand, to go to Glasgow next year, probably as a work in progress, so I may have to be content with what I have ready to paint by the end of next week.

Very few starters will start off by scratch building a loco for their layout and even less, I would suggest, would want to scratch a batch of engines so I am assuming this is purely academic, but for those following the thread it may be interesting to see the final outcomes.

Most of the detailing I have covered already in this thread and all I am doing here is to show what progress has been made with the locos.

Not everyone will ever build a batch of locos together and I would suggest that it is worthwhile if you should ever do this yourself that you build one locomotive to find out where there may be any problems in construction before cutting and assembling the others. Once you are happy then batches of parts can be made for the details and then cut and assemble all the main parts for each loco, but then I detail each one in turn. It makes the job more interesting and progress on each loco seems quicker. :thumb

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:19 pm

The first and second locos are of the 17-20 batch, however the third locomotive is based on the prototype engine No.16. I am also intending building another locomotive no.20 which was disassembled at the Wemyss works and the boiler sent back to Barclays. It is to be built in a disassembled state for the model I am making.

The first loco built was No. 17. The second I assembled No. 18 and finally I assembled was No.16 which had many detail differences.

DSC01492.JPG


No.17 is on the left and No.18 sitting to the front right with No16 behind. No. 17 was more or less complete when the other two locos were assembled. The more obvious differences seen in No.16 are the different placing of the examination holes in the tanks and also the shorter tank sides. There are many other small differences and part of the fun in building is finding out the "individuality" of locomotives. :)

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:42 pm

So what other detailing jobs were carried out? Well the first I will cover is fitting the boiler bands. I had bought an etch from Alan Gibson for boiler bands, however when I looked at them I felt that they seemed a little thin for the particular locomotives so made the decision to cut them from thin brass shim instead.

Once cut they can be soldered or glued in place. I cut them to length and curve them using my thumb and finger as per the photograph.

DSC01478.JPG



DSC01479.JPG


A narrow soldering iron and some Carr's solder paste can be used. As an alternative the underside of the strip can be tinned using resin cored solder and then flux put on the boiler just where you intend the boiler band to go. Heat one end and attach it to the boiler, check that it is going to go on straight then using a cocktail stick gradually solder it in place. :)

DSC01484.JPG

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:35 pm

Fitting boiler bands I normally do using my resistance soldering iron - this is one of the jobs that it is ideal for. I would only recommend buying one if it is your intention to build batches of brass coaches or - it is very good for brass diesels- with lots of panels and brass loco kits to a degree. I have tried throughout this thread to keep tools etc. to a minimum.

A resistance soldering iron is good for adding smaller details providing it is turned down low, otherwise there is a slight tendency for the small brass elements to disappear in a flash! :)

DSC01483.JPG
The photograph shows the clip of the negative lead attached to the footplate below in the cab area while the other positive lead which is, in fact, made from carbon welding rod, solders the boiler band in place.


Here is one being used to put some of the boiler bands on.

DSC01485.JPG


A pair of tweezers can be used to hold bands in place while soldering is done.

DSC01481.JPG


An alternative to soldering is to use small smears of Araldite 5 minute epoxy resin mixed in equal parts. Small amounts should be used and concentrate on putting one band on at a time. Mix, then put the glue on to the underside of the band and give the glue a minute to thicken before fixing in place . Again work from one side and make sure the band runs true. :thumb


DSC01482.JPG


Superglue Gel can also be used in a similar way, but it is tricky to handle and a fine pointed pair of tweezers are probably your best bet, however I prefer to solder myself. Both glues can be used effectively at the detailing stage and now many professional builders use both along with soldering so do not feel you must solder everything always!

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:47 pm

To finish off the boiler bands I use a scraper and a brass brush rather than a glass fibre brush as I am trying to avoid the use of such things these days as even small fibres still get through to the painting stage unless a lot of care is taken with cleaning. :cry:

First the scraper-


DSC01489.JPG



Then the brass brush -


DSC01486.JPG



And after it should look like this :) -


DSC01487.JPG
Note that not all the bands have bottom or side fastenings shown and there is one which connects together immediately behind the dome.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:46 am

Having just caught up with this thread, I find that the cleanest form of pickup is to arrange for the wire to bear on the edge of the flange. It can either be at an angle in the case of a fixed axle, or at a right angle to the wheel on a moving axle. The pressure should be as light as possible, but springy, and so I tend to use 0.3mm hard brass wire for the right angle ones, often wound into several coils, as per Flymo's posts some time ago; the fixed axle ones can be 0.4mm or 0.45mm wire depending on where they are to be anchored. The great thing about these is that they tend to be self cleaning, as they don't touch any part of the tread that is in contact with the rail, and if they do need a clean the engine can be run on a spirit soaked kitchen towel one wheelset at a time.

None of this works with conversions where you are generally stuck with phosphor bronze strip bearing on the back of the wheel, but there are usually so many pickups on many RTR engines it doesn't seem to matter. I dislike stiff or thicker wire for pickups as they just act as brakes. Some RTR P/B strip pickups do just that!

Finally, I do fit pickups routinely to bogie and tender wheels, on both RTR and home built chassis. If arranged as above they have very little effect on free running and I find they are an enormous benefit to smooth running. They often allow for less wheel cleaning as well, as so many more wheels have to get dirty before things start to stutter.

Philip

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Will L
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Will L » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:52 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:---I note that the centre pickups are contacting the wheel rim whereas the others are contacting the running surface, which tends to pick up dirt...


I'm wondering where the idea that pickups on the running surface pick up dirt comes from. I always prefer pickups that bear on the running surface as this minimise the area of the wheel that you need to keep clean, and may hours of exhibition running later I really don't find any tendency for dirt to collect on the pickups.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:24 pm

HI Allan I hope it isn't rude to butt in on your thread briefly: going back to the subject you were discussing of mind numbingly small details and whether they should be 'right' - I've got some rather more glaringly obvious 'sins' that I'm wondering if any experts out there can help with.

My aim is for this Barclay to operate on Calderside, the WS4G's layout set in West Scotland. You kindly sent me some pictures and I intended to model mine on this first one as it operated in Ayrshire, No17:

No 17.JPG
Note unusual front footsteps position


However I find by not studying the photo properly I've modelled the front steps and handrails as this one:

No 10 Snip.JPG
No 10 Snip.JPG (67.24 KiB) Viewed 7230 times


No 10 snip.JPG
No 10 snip.JPG (51.3 KiB) Viewed 7227 times




Here is mine in the current state of play:

2017-01-29 21.40.30 (Large).jpg


So I am wondering whether No 17 at any time had its front handrails and steps as per my model. (Originally it had the steps in front of the slide bars, but I have a horror of bendy footsteps and there is not enough room there to beef them up as I like.)

Or whether another loco with details as mine ran in West Scotland? Does anyone know?

Otherwise I'll have to get those things off and re-done!

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:58 pm

Continuing from last Sunday's postings :) , the locomotives sitting on the bench last Friday looked as if they were very near the final stage, but that can be deceptive. I spent another couple of days this week trying to get them finished, but will probably need another week to see them through and maybe not this next week as I have much to do over the next fortnight. No one has spotted the one howler from the other smaller Barclay photograph yet, although I do know it requires some technical expertise, however I thought someone would have managed to spot it by now - but I will give it a few more days.

One of the things I should mention is the fact that when building locomotives it is OK to change your mind about things during the process as decisions made elsewhere may have a bearing on what you are making. Someone just starting out may not wish to do that and I would not expect this happening (although it may) during a first build, however in this case, I had not decided whether to go down the digital route for my new layout or stay with a non digital system, which was my original plan. I have gained some useful knowledge about going down the digital route on my time with Burntisland. The decision to use digital there came about 15 years ago as it was thought that it would be a good idea for us to try it out so that the members of the group could learn from the experience and perhaps adopt it for their own layouts.

I have far too many locomotives for my Dubbieside and Grayrigg layouts to go digital - the cost would be prohibitive for a start and the time taken up adapting the locos for fitting the chips I feel would not be worthwhile. :cry: However I have made the decision to use digital on the new system, at least on the Wemyss and NCB lines. This meant that the chassis which I had built with the Portescape motor would be best changed. Now this is a beautifully running chassis, but I decided that I might use the motor in a "Clan" or "Brit" for Grayrigg instead where the pulling power is necessary as well as speed going down the bank. So out it came and a replacement motor and gearbox put in its place. The motor needed more space and required the underside of the boiler to be cut back. This was done using a cutting disc on a flexible lead. Not something you would want to do if you have not used one before. I also found that when I put the motor/gearbox unit in it took up more height than the previous motor and I had to adapt the safety valve mounting by cutting the end of the retaining screw I did this using my hacksaw.

DSC01490.JPG

The soldered up safety valves going through the cleaning up process.

DSC01497.JPG

Sawing off the excess screw fitting to allow for the new motor to fit.

In the end I decided to try one or two variations in motor sizes and gear ratios so number 16 has a slightly smaller Maschima motor a 1426 and 80:1 gears No 17 has a 1428 and 67:1 gears and No. 18 has 1428 and 80:1 gears. I bought flywheels, but have decided not to use them as the electronics will help there. So part of my time one day was taken up putting together the gearboxes and the motors and running them in as I continued the assembly of body parts. After much discussion with Julian I have decided to weight numbers 17 and 18 differently and will probably make the weights removable (for alteration later if necessary). This is all part of a continuing quest for even better running locomotives. I will also consider what might be needed for sound proofing as the motor / gearbox combination creates more noise than the Portescape I have replaced. I noticed my old friend Steve Duckworth used balsa in the three Caley locos he built and which were covered in the latest Snooze (201) We ran them on Dubbieside at Glasgow last year and they did seem very quiet, although it is difficult to tell properly at a show. ;) :)

I will try different things in each of the locos as it is not often you have three locomotives with a similar sized soundbox. If anyone is interested in the results of these developments I would be happy to pass them on after they have had a chance to do some proper running in the field - say in a year's time. :geek:

I am just mentioning this as this thread is intended for beginners and I think it does show that after years and years of building locos there is always room for learning and improving - that is part of the fun! :D

DSC01491.JPG


I also realised that I had not shown how to solder the strip of brass shim which covers the gap between tank and boiler which I assume is for keeping corrosion at bay. As it is brass shim slightly bent between a couple of bending bars it is easy to solder using a soldering iron with a reasonably big bit and some Carr's solder paste.

WE are looking down on number 16 taking shape. Number 16 was the prototype engine and different from numbers 17 and 18 in a number of ways. The most obvious of these being the difference in tank length and the position and size of the drivers access hole in the tank side. The tanks also had their fillers at the front end of the tank and the handrails were therefore different as well. There were also minor detail differences which you can spot for yourself from photographs. The other two locomotives also have minor detail differences from one another. Big differences in the paint schemes will make each locomotive seem much more a different character - the variations in motor/gearbox will also give an individual feel to the driving of each of the engines in traffic I hope. :)

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:59 pm

Most of this week has been spent cutting small pieces of metal and soldering them on using a small pointed soldering iron, or occasionally using glue. One of the outcomes of displaying the other smaller Barclay on the thread is that behind the scenes I have had a number of people contact me with "Possible things wrong about the model", which is all to the good as it shows just how observant modellers can be and it has made me reconsider a few things to achieve an even better model and also improve the other Barclays at the same time.

However, this has meant making three sets of various things, never mind about the other loco. Some of the items are only ever going to be seen below footplate level and probably will not show up when running on the layout, but it will be nice to know at least that they are there, these include 6 injectors and all their piping runs and 30 footplate supports of two different types. I have also made up the linkages for the mechanical lubricators which will eventually be fitted to the chassis when I finally make up the last one I will fit them all at the same time. Various details of rivets all over the body and footsteps were cut and fitted as well as the handrails and tank fillers. Different makes of buffers are being tried as well. I am half way through making up the 3 backheads with all the gauges etc. and other cab details, which will be fitted later after painting.

I have decided to change the cab floors, having already made them from thin plywood. They will be made from lead instead to give more weight to this area, this visually may be better than adding weight under the cab roof. The bunkers are fairly small and may be used for fitting the chips later.

DSC01498.JPG


The snagging list. :shock: What all of this yet to go :?:

I made up a list of things still to do if I should decide to take it further and am now working through it - this is known as a snagging list and is a way of checking that you have managed to take whatever the project is to a point where you are happy.

Quite a few of these items can be ticked off by now and some items could be left until later - cab details for example. Some may not be necessary as only extreme scrutiny would show them missing, like the reverser lever which comes into the tank opening and is very difficult to see in the dark, however it will be done just for completeness. Note I have used the notation A for all engines and the numbers where individual locos need items fitted. These will all be ticked off the list as items are finished and added.


When I started building locomotives for myself in my 00 days I would not have taken any engine that far and I suppose that you could go completely made just trying to get it all right, after all the locomotive will pass by many things on the layout that do not work or look less detailed, however people dismiss this and have a more definitive eye for engines and similarly for coaches or wagons sometimes, so don't worry about taking your engine to the n'th degree, just stop when it satisfies your eye.

I have made an effort to clean up the locomotives at this stage to see if any parts fall off due to insufficient solder or glue, all excesses being scraped away. In the process a couple of rivet strips fell of the footsteps and three handrails had too much solder removed from the cab interior and needed fixing again on one end. One lamp bracket came away due to the solder not flowing properly.

When cleaning up at this stage I scrape away any excess solder or glue using a steel scraper, then rub down with a small brass brush and files if necessary, then glass or fine emery paper then a large glass fibre brush before scrubbing with a toothbrush and El Cheepo :o toothpaste to remove the final residue of flux. Giving a final dip in hot water. This I have done before fitting any of the snagging items on the list. I will give a further clean when any of the under footplate items get soldered on. At this stage it is just another way of checking that the work done so far has been done correctly. :thumb

DSC01496.JPG

Here are the engines going through these stages on the workbench.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:23 pm

So what do the bodies look like after a fortnight's work assembling and detailing. Well here they are. :|

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The three engines sitting side by side. 18, 17, 16


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No.18 on the left, No.16 on the right


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This view perhaps shows more clearly the differences between the "standard" loco behind and number 16 in front


There are a number of small holes visible in different places, this is because I want to add some of the small details after painting - like the whistles and various small pipes from lubricators etc.

A word of warning about copying details from the photographs I have provided, details were not all the same on every engine and the loco I photographed was no.20 which is not one of the ones I have built. It was sent to Barclays for re-boilering and like the others had gained a few extras, also in its time at Bo'ness it seems to have acquired a toolbox and vacuum brake to allow it to haul passenger trains. Number 17 these days has similar changes and the drive has been altered to the other side I have been told - anyone out there got a good cab photograph to show this? :)

Due to other commitments I am unlikely to do the final building and detailing stages until about three weeks and then I must think about painting. The other Barclay is to be completed and changed , then painted in time for use at Glasgow, so it will be finished first.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:30 pm

:D Now You would expect that the engines are so close to completion that further additions were not really necessary and you would probably be right. After all this this thread is for beginners, however it may that if you are a beginner may want to take things as far as you can go with additional detail. "Getting it all right" and taking things as far as you can go, purely for your own satisfaction.

The term "Getting it all right" is not at all helpful to be honest, as everyone has a different idea of what this means - so lets just say that you want to add additional detail to lift it a bit higher than the average. When I posted the photograph of one of Chris Gibbons Barclay kits it turned out to be most interesting, from my point of view as various people mentioned things that they thought I had possibly managed to make incorrectly or perhaps have missed out entirely especially below the footplate. :shock: :!:

This has made me decide to add some additional detail especially below the footplate. Now, I am not advocating that as a starter you must do this, just take it as far as you want and when you are happy stop. The addition of detail could make you crazy. I intend adding detail in the cabs of the locomotives as well as what goes on under the footplate. I decided not to put in internal valve gear as it cannot be seen from normal viewing angles. If I have to turn a locomotive upside down to see a particular detail then I personally do not bother. So this is not modelling to the Nth degree and what I am going to cover next is probably not necessary and takes time to do. :o

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All of this is for fitting below the footplate, there are footplate brackets and triangular brackets for the buffer beam supports, a simple representation of the injectors hidden behind the footplate. There are pieces for the chassis as well including the copper clad material for the pickups.

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I have used my clamp to hold material as I have filed some of the brackets to shape. Some of the brackets are cut away to allow the coupling rods to rotate. The easiest way to do this is to file one to shape then clamp the next bracket to it and file away until it matches the first and continue like this until they are all done - quite a number as I am doing three of these locomotives. Each loco has 10 brackets in all as well as 4 buffer beam supports.
Two injectors and additional pipes. Then there are the cranks and levers for the lubricator on the left hand side. Plus of course the interior cab details, which I will go into at a later date as I still have one chassis to complete.

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Backheads without details at the moment. The idea is to detail them and then paint before fitting to the locomotive later.

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These are the parts for the mechanical movement of the Wakefield lubricator.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:40 pm

Trying to get the small Barclay ready for Glasgow, but not sure whether I will have enough time, given all the other things I have to do for both the East Group and the West Group. However It was an interesting exercise to put up a photograph of the engine, knowing there was something wrong in what I had built and seeing just what was needed to make it right. :)

It was interesting to see what people came forward with and in fact it has been very useful as I have now made several adjustments as per suggestions made. It was also interesting that no-one actually put anything forward on the thread, all contacts were by email only. No-one wanted to seem to be wrong I suppose, but all suggestions were most welcome :thumb , however, and I have now made adjustments to buffers, the valves admitting water to the boiler (which I confess I had left the small wheels on, just in appreciation of the original kit, but yes, for this engine they were wrong, but again now corrected, although I have still to fit small additional pieces of brass tube once painted.)

Piping below footplate level has also been added and yes it was worth adding as some of it can be seen at normal levels. Couplings will be added after painting and I decided not to try to remove the guide for the outside fitting shutters on the cab for the simple reason that the brass in the kit is very thin and trying to eliminate it from the etch would be difficult without damaging the cab-side. I will be adding interior shutters at a later time, but rather like to be able to see inside the cab and all the lovely detail there. I will probably change the whistle, which no-one spotted was a hooter on the original and will possibly add the radio antenna which these locos were fitted with - depending on the date this was fitted as it may be later than my period.

So what was the big mistake? :shock: Well no-one spotted it as it turned out. :o The item that was wrong was the Giesl Ejector. :? I knew that they had a number of jets, seven to be precise, and had taken great care to make one up with that number of orifices. Tricky job to measure them out and drill precisely, took three goes and a whole afternoon to get it just the way I wanted. It was only later when I decided to look for photographs on the web that I discovered that the jets were in the top of the smoke-box and that the "chimney" was a simple design without any channels running up to the rim! :cry: Shows you that it is always worth checking something like that and not just go by memory of seeing such locos in action.

I had bought two different commercial versions of such a thing, but both were solid and so gave no clues. :| So I used my disc cutter to cut down very carefully and used some files to clear the top which I had fitted. The loco is ready for painting now and thanks all who joined in, your help is much appreciated and I am sure my model has been improved in the process. :thumb :D Here are the photographs prior to painting and if there is any thing missing or requiring altering now then it is too late as I have now primed the engine ready for painting. Some rather cruel blow-ups coming up :cry: -

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Andy W
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Andy W » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:04 pm

Beautiful.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:21 pm

Can I ask what I suspect is a dumb question?

Why does the loco appear to have no defined smoke box? ...It appears to run straight into the boiler with no step, I assume that this a peculiarity of the prototype, why?

Tim
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:06 am

Hi Tim and Andy, :D

Yes it is a feature of the prototype and I am sure there are other British industrials I have seen like this, I will spend a little time and see if I can find some other examples. It is a feature of some American designs as well as some European ones. The bigger Barclays I am scratch building over a period do have defined smoke boxes. as I am sure you have noticed. The smoke box on these engines was still defined by the smoke box being painted a different colour.

I am not sure why this particular design should be done in this way, although the engine was maybe an adaption or development of one of their saddle tank designs, When saddle tanks are stripped off engines it is often the case that there is no difference in level between the smoke box and boiler. I would be curious to know myself exactly why Barclay went for this.

There are examples of boilers being wider, the most obvious being the WD 2-8-0s, but in that case it was due to the design not having the normal insulation around the boiler, but an air casing instead.

I have made the smoke box door open-able for various reasons which I might go into later after a few experiments.

Also thanks for your kind comment Andy, much appreciated :)

Allan

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:23 pm

That High Level Barclay is rather nice - I'm shortly to start the one in my to do pile.

As for smokeboxes flush with the boiler, quite a few LBSC Billington designed locos had this feature. Here's the Bluebell's page for their E4: http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/locos/bg/

This page shows it under repair, showing that the smokebox is larger than the boiler as per usual, and the flush effect is down to having thicker boiler cladding. Presumably this was done for aesthetic rather than practical reasons (and those Billington locos do look very nice).

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/~uhaa ... 98225.html

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:59 pm

Andy W wrote:Beautiful.

:thumb agree!
Brass models look so lovely unpainted...but wait till Allan has worked his artist's magic with his painting Andy! He brings another definition to beautiful...his painted trains show the beauty that was in the industrial everyday grimness of those steam days!

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri May 12, 2017 7:41 pm

There has been a pause in the thread as I have been building other stock for my new layout as well as a building for Burntisland. :D The starters group are now on to baseboard construction and track making and I have been putting stuff together similar to the course we ran for the West Group.

The West Scotland Group have asked me to take my new layout to Glasgow next February as a work in progress, so I have painted the small Barclay, but still have to letter it and then weather it. Work on the larger Barclays continues as I have been building the "tenders" for the engines which are converted RCH minerals. I need about 8 of these for the locos being built for the system. They will include extra pick-ups and a number of other features.

I apologise to anyone following this thread as this means quite a long break until they are finished and I do know that Julian is keen to see what I will do with the weathering of the smaller one. The photograph shows N0. 8 in its last days. It would make an excellent model for an extreme weathering treatment. I have one or two things to settle about the model, before making a final decision as to how it should be done. It had a sister loco no.10 which was with the Fife area of the coal board from an earlier period. This had a normal chimney. The chimney and the Ejector are swap-able as the ejector is bolted on at this stage. The smoke box door can be removed to allow for this to take place. One of the engines I am modelling which ran on the system was an ex-Caley 0-6-0T. This was only for a short time being withdrawn in 1959, trouble is No. 8 arrived in 1962 and only had the ejector fitted a couple of years later. I have a couple of J94's and have not decided how to finish these either as the Wemyss system did not buy any until about 1960 and one of the locomotives I have already working has an ejector. I am inclined to model the mid 60's and that would be fine for the majority of the locos, but leave the Caley loco as an anomaly. The same thing applies to the brake vans as I have no record of when various vans were repainted into various liveries and there was also some confusion as to numbers etc. on the vans.

A case of build and be damned probably, but then again it's my railway and I can run what I like. I will weed out locos and vans at a later date when it comes to exhibiting in an attempt to "get it all right", but will bring them along for others who just might be interested. Our Grayrigg layout at home although based on late 50's/60's has a wider range of stock and locos running on it, but then again it is a "home" layout and my son Dave is keen on Diesels and my interest is steam, so we sometimes run steam and other times run diesel and sometimes a mix, mind you we have had visitors with all sorts over the 30 years or so from when we started building the layout. It has been neglected for a while and I am de-bugging the layout prior to our next Starters Group meeting as I am hoping we can test run some of the engines they have been building with a variety of trains on some stiff gradients, cambers and curves, on some summer's day!

I also have to get Dubbieside ready for its turn at the Perth Show late June - this is its last booking and probably retiral and partial dismantling after all these years. :( So a busy month or two coming up. :)

The Barclays still wait for painting and I am in a quandary whether to paint them all just now or paint one example and leave the others until after Glasgow as the idea of the layout for Glasgow is to show (1) part of the layout finished scenically and working, (2) part working, but no scenery - except in a structural form and (3) the last showing structural framework, baseboards,wiring,electronics,locomotives under construction, etc.

It might be an idea :idea: to offer it to Scalefour North and Scalefourum as I know layouts under construction cause a lot of discussion and interest. In the meantime I intend starting a thread in the summer covering its construction. I have also been asked if I could produce a fault finding chart for locomotive chassis construction covering the two types featured in this thread, so I will try to find time to do that as well. In the meantime the Starters Group are going on to track construction so in terms of the forum that will be the first priority.

So this thread is not dead, it is just in abeyance for a little while until a few decisions are made - and a weathering session as a teach-in for those interested Julian. :|


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