West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

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Allan Goodwillie
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West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:53 pm

After some considerable time I have decided to do the follow up to the first two sections of our loco building project. :D John Chambers had a quiet chat with me when I was down at Scalefour Southwest 2014 with the East Group's Burntisland wondering when I would get around to this task. There is no doubt that the first two parts of this have been popular and are clearly used for referance by many modellers on a regular basis, but I was not sure whether I should do a follow up with the building of the bodywork on the Barclay locomotives as they were a fairly obscure type and they were going to be scratchbuilt. I was not sure if many starters in the scale/gauge would be interested in scratchbuilding locomotives when only setting out on a first step layout in S4. Then I got back to thinking about my own start approx 45 years ago and remembered that the second locomotive I built was scratchbuilt in brass as it was a type unlikely to be available as a kit- a class Y9 0-4-0ST built by the North British - the locomotive is still running although it has had a replacement chassis during its time. The original loco had Studiolith gears and a 5 pole motor of the same type that they were using on Pendon at the time, if I remember correctly. The original wheels were reworked Manning Wardle style - respoked by me and the boss altered. I was very pleased when Mike Sharman produced a suitable wheel many years later and I rebuilt the chassis and changed to a Portescap motor at the same time. The engine was built to have that distressed look which an old engine has after many long years of hard work and gradual metal fetigue. Perhaps because of this, it is the most loved of the engines performing on Dubbieside to this day and my own favourite. :) In Scotland these engines often had a little coal tender attached for trip working and it picks up on all wheels. The engine had sprung plunger pickups to begin with and all my early locos were fitted with them as that was the received wisdom at the time, but I soon discovered that they had a whole set of problems of their own and difficult to put right once they started to give trouble so I have used wiper pickups ever since. This old engine will be referred to from time to time as I work up the other engines. There is something about scratchbuilding that gives a particular joy and I would like to see a bt more of it going on in the engine departments of peoples layouts. It is not too difficult to produce a small engine like this and a great deal of satisfaction to be gained. :D

DSC02263 (2).jpg
Here is the Y9 standing outside the shed at Dubbieside, all a bt crude looking back on it but the loco has given good service over the years waddling back and forward along the quayside, much the same way as the original ones did. I dare say it will make the occasional forray down the Buckhaven/Methil branch when the time comes so she is not done with exhibiting yet.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:47 pm

Well where do we start? :?: You may need to refer back to the previous section, but if you remember we made a cutting plan for the entire locomotive and cut out the parts for the chassis, which has been put together during part 1 and part 2 of this series. Just to remind evryone the drawing was attached to the metal (nickle silver sheet) using double sided cellotape and all the holes for handles etc. pre-drilled prior to cutting out. The remaining parts should now be cut from the sheet in a similar way using tin snips or sharp scissors or a piercing saw with a V cutting support.

You may want to add additional information to the drawing as you go along and it could be useful to have a copy of the drawing to refer to as you are working. Any slight bending of the metal should be corrected using a soft hammer or mallet so that the surface of the metal does not get damaged as it is flattened and edges should be cleaned up with files. You will not need many new tools beyond what was needed in parts one and two except you will need to have access to a lathe or someone who has a lathe and would be willing to do some turnings for you.

When I built the old Y9 I took a short course in lathe turning at the local school and did the original turnings there. Nowadays I have my own modellers lathe which I have had for a long time now - since the 1980's. Unfortunately for me I had some damage done to the electrical control side and the lathe was out of action for a few months. During this time I was helping Bob Heatherington by doing the general scenery on his layout over a long weekend prior to Scalefour North. Bob was keen to pay me back for my time and asked if there was anything he could help me with for my own new layout.



When I thought about it I decided it would be a good idea to put Bob's undoubted skills on the lathe to work and asked him to produce a set of chimney/dome/safety valve covers for one of the engines thinking it would make me get on with at least one locomotive if they were there. This I thought would be a spur to getting on with the job and not doing something else instead! Bob went and made me enough for three engines so I have no excuses now. I will still show how they were turned and intend still to do that in this series. One reason for joining a local Scalefour Group is that you will probably find friends there who have such skills who may in fact help you through that part of the exercise. I will also show a number of alternative ways to produce similar items without a lathe.

DSC03721.JPG
Here we have a photograph I took of Bob's Garragill layout after the scenery had been worked up at the weekend. It of course includes one of Bob's wonderful Stockton and Darlington locomotives.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:13 pm

There is no set pattern or order of construction laid down somewhere, much depends on when you have time to work and whether you like to do all the turnings first, or do all your cutting first. Generally I tend to build the chassis first and then fit the body in stages. I prefer to do the main turnings before any assembly is started so that I can assess the fit before everything gets soldered up. I then make up the parts as sub assemblies - checking piece against piece to see if there are going to be any problems as I go along.

I would suggest that there is no point in doing all the rivits before checking the fit, especially if it is an ancient saddle tank covered in rivits all over the tank. I did this one time when building against the clock to produce a shunting tank for Burntisland when we were due to go to the 18.83 competition. So I am talking from experience here. The spare scrap tank still sits in my scrap box to remind me not to make the same error again.

An aside about batch building - not that it is likely that you will be doing this for your first attempt, but it is worth building a test sample before running off the rest - there will be problems somewhere along the line and they will show up in the test sample. You can then make decisions as to what to improve or otherwise for the remainder. I am going to build three of these tanks for my new layout and hope that my test piece may throw up improvements that I might make to the latter two.

I have already decided to use a different motor/gearbox configuration for a number of reasons which will become clear as we proceed. I would rather like to include a cab interior and intend a working smoke unit in the smoke box. I still have not decided whether to go DCC for the next layout, but want to keep my options open for the chips and sound system I may like to include at a later date, so I am leaving the inside of the tanks open to allow for this, Normally I would have made them in box form and filled them with lead. - Some understanding of what you want to include is worth listing at this stage as it may alter what you include and how you may proceed.

What materials do you have available and what is your attitude to mixing them? - some people like to use one material throughout and for example, make everything in nickle silver. I would suggest that if this is your first build that it may not be a bad idea to mix the materials just to get a feel for them. I am keeping this build simple and to a certain extent treat it as a teaching exercise to show that even without a specialist model shop next door you can get a nice scale loco built with a little improvisation.
Generally speaking both Nickle silver and brass will do the job as well as tin plated material. Copper tube can also be used for boiler material, but I tend never to use it for boilers as it is a bit too soft a material and needs to be very clean prior to soldering if the joint is to be strong, Paint does not adhere to the material particularly well. Phosphorbronze material solders well and can be considered, but is costly and not generally available.A cheap alternative is tinplate, which has to be cleaned regularly during the process if you are to avoid rust and it must be painted immediately after the model is finished for the same reason. I have a friend Vic in Dundee who has made a large collection of interesting models entirely from this material. He likes to build Thompson's locos - the more obscure the better. With this building I will stick pretty much to the conventional brass/N/S combination.

To get started I bought two pieces of brass tube from Eileen's Emporium one 19mm O/D (outside diameter) the other 22mm O/D. The boiler requires the 19mm, the smokebox the other. I had attached the drawings to some half hard Nickle silver sheet from the same source using my method of cellotaping the drawing to the metal using double sided cellotape.. (I have had a couple of emails already about using large lables available for printers to do the same job and printing the drawing on to the lables, then attaching the lables to the metal ) Not a method I have tried, but sounds OK to me -I will try it sometime. The other items I have which I am going to use are some 1mmx1mm brass angle as well as some 2mmx2mm brass angle which I will use for footsteps and footplate strengthening. A box of assorted washers or coins may also be useful at some point. I have a variety of solders, but the ones I am most likely to use will be the green lable 188 solder for most of the work, I also have a gap filler solder which comes with a purple lable - useful for the small dimentional mistake. I also use the equivalent of Green and Black fluxes for various jobs more to be said about that when the time comes.

A couple of points from this -some people prefer to roll a boiler from N/S sheet as they feel that often tube comes not perfectly round, or they cannot get N/S tube and still want to make the whole engine from N/S. I am not going to cover boiler rolling as I feel it is outside the scope of the article -a set of rolling bars is an expense which is not necessary for the beginner. So although I have a set I will not be using them. The second point is about the hardness or otherwise of the metal. The half hard N/S sheet is fine and stiff for making tank sides etc. The hardness will change depending on how the metal has been worked- heat and gradual cooling makes it softer, beating and sudden cooldown after heating makes the material harder and more brittle - important if bending the metal. Brass has much more give generally, but it also has a slightly greasy surface as well, which not neveryone takes to. Paint takes better to N/S and it is prettier when finished before painting as the colour appears to be the same throughout. Another advantage of N/S is that heat is not distributed quickly as it is in the other metals which allows a number of options when soldering using it. You pays your money you takes your choice as they say. 8-)

DSC03981.JPG
Here we have our material all cut out, flattened and filed

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Andy W
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Andy W » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:25 pm

A great thread Allan. Am looking forward to this.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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Dave K
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Dave K » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:14 am

Allan,

I've been looking for the "build a chassis" or "pars 1 & 2" of your manis opus but could not find it :?: I hope it has not been deleted.

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Will L
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Will L » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:06 am

dave k wrote:Allan,

I've been looking for the "build a chassis" or "pars 1 & 2" of your manis opus but could not find it :?: I hope it has not been deleted.


Things aren't usually deleted, they are here:-
West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project
and
"West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:37 am

Hi Dave,
the information from the first two threads has been moved around and is now included under locomotive construction. However the original threads are still under Starting in P4 as this is what it was intended to be for. I am amazed how much the two threads have been viewed so many people must be referring to them when building their own locos, which is great, I have had a number of people come up to me at exhibitions with locos they have successfully built based on the threads, which is very gratifying.

The originals are under the Starting in P4 section:

Part 1 is at http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=666
Part 2 is at http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=886

or they can also be found in the Steam Locomotives section as follows:

Part 1 is at http://www.scalefour.org/fourum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=993
Part 2 is at http://www.scalefour.org/fourum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=994


As I was typing this out I see Will has got there before me! Thanks Will well done! I will put a post in on the end of each section so that anyone going back will be able to find the other sections easily as well as this thread so there is continuity and people can find their way back here.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:24 pm

Some progress has been made over the last few days since starting on Friday :) I have managed to put together the first of the locomotives as a test build for the other two. I have been down with a miserable cold and the modelling is helping me to recover. :cry: First I must find out how accurate the parts are and if anything needs tweaking. So far so good. Everything fits together pretty well so the drawing has been fairly accurate. One or two additional parts have to be made, which I knew about. - (The insides of the tanks as well as the undersides of the tanks allowing access to oiling points.) I have also sarted to develop the cab interiors, but intend to cover that at a later stage - Stage 5.

Stage 1 will look at variations in the design and selection of the locomotives that I intend to build and consider some things that are worth doing if you intend to batch build.
Stage 2 will look at additional tools and materials as we have done in the past assuming that you have the tools which we have used in Part 1 and 2
Stage 3 will be initial assembly a) Boiler and firebox assembly b)Footplate assembly c) Tank and cab assembly
Stage 4 will be dealing with alterations /alternative ways of doing things. :geek:
Stage 5 Detailing
Stage 6 Painting and weathering

So now a quick peek at what has been built already before starting a blow by blow account.

DSC04119.JPG
The photographs were taken yesterday after the first assembly of the main components - far to early for any detail, but I hope to have this one near to completion by the weekend. There will possibly be one or two changes in the chassis when you see them again as I have decided to add one or two additional things to these locomotives which will be experimental and secret at this stage. If the experiments work then I will reveal them at a later date.


DSC04121.JPG
Just a couple of photographs of the loco under construction - a bit rough and ready at this stage, but the basics coming along nicely

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:33 pm

Section 1 Variations and selection of prototype

In part 1 of the project we considered the problems of different designs - 4-4-0s etc and how it is a good idea to start on something quite simple ;) like the Barclay 0-6-0T we have here. (A medium sized 0-6-0T design with a parallel boiler,simple footplate, no outside cyls/valve gear, simple straightfrward industrial design (although a good looking locomotive). Big side tanks, also make it ideal as there is plenty of space for the mechanicals. It is an easy locomotive to balance, plenty of space in the tanks for weight where you need it over the wheelbase, no bogies etc. an ideal loco to start with.) :)

Even with a simple design there were always variations. Prototypes were used as guineapigs and alterations made when a batch were built and the locomotives I am modelling were the same. Sometimes improvements in the way the locomotives were constructed dictated changes, which would lead to alterations in the final design, sometimes it was seeing the prototype loco in normal service which made them tweak the design to suit their home ground. The Barclays looked for a period of time as if they were going to be fitted with radios for radio control, but in the end it was only the Coal board locos in the area that were fitted. :cry:

DSC04124.JPG
In this photograph we see the body up against the J83 and I think this brings out the beefy quality of the original, mind you seeing something in its brass state can give a wrong impression of what it may look like once painted.


DSC04123.JPG
Here we see the shorter wheelbase of the Barclay locomotive set alongside a J83. The J83 was a rebuild of one of Rodger Pedrick's 00 locos which now belongs to Richard Darby and runs on his layout Blackston Junction


I found it interesting comparing the Barclay design with the standard design of the North British the class J83. The J83 looks a bit puny in comparison! See the photograph above. The Wemyss system considered buying several second hand J83s over the course of the line's existance rather than order new Barclays - in fact they bought a similar Caley 0-6-0T, but it suffered from having a longer wheelbase (as did the J83's) In the end they bought cheap J94's which gradually became available after the war. There was aBarclay 0-8-0T version designed, but this was turned down due to the longer wheelbase again. - quite fancy building one however :!: :D

The first of the class (no.16) had quite a few differences compared to the main batch build Nos 17-20 and within the main batch there were a few detail differences in time.
If we look at the drawing are there any things which may still put the beginner off. Well there is no working valve gear as such, but there is an operating lubricator lever connecting chassis with the lubricator on the footplate. Tricky, because it has to work - this is where I would use a simple ruse to make it look as if the lubricator works yet does not need a slot in the footplate and all that would entail from the point of view of maintainance and body removal. As a starter, many would not condem you to simply miss out the operating lever altogether, but overcoming the challenge of making this work will give a surprising level of satisfaction, it is afterall your first! (maybe not if you are already used to building kits in another scale, so you may already have experience in dealing with such things. 8-)

Are there any parts that do not appear on the drawing, including rivits, builders plates and other details which may have been altered during operation on the railway - fire iron hooks, lamp brackets, pyrometers, etc. which will be needed in the construction of the engine and visa versa, what elements are present in the drawing which are not there on the actual locos? Some of the smaller details can beadded later including rivits as you can now get stick on ones applied at the painting stages. YOU MAY PREFERTO USE SOME FORM OF RIVITER BUT THAT IS NOT NECESSARY, NOR IS A LATHE NOR IS A MINIATURE DRILL.. I do not prescribe a huge list of expensive pieces of equipment and will show alternative ways of doing things. A little bit of ingenuity may be required here and there. :P

file.jpg
Number 16 had a slightly shorter tank and tank fillers at the front of each tank, differences in handrails, etc which I will not list at this stage. Here is the drawing again to remind you what I am building. (note the drawing is for 17-20)
file.jpg (87.21 KiB) Viewed 9237 times

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:18 pm

Batch building a number of locomotives requires a slightly different approach.

In this case I am doing 3 locomotives and there will be some variations just to make each locomotive unique, but equally there will be a number of components that require methods of working where examples of a component may require to be made a number of times and each has to be identical if possible, so I need to think of making one or two jigs to make this happen and also to save a little time.

You may also decide that you want to spend a little money and buy some components which would allow you to save time and possibly give a better result depending on skill levels, Examples are buffers and their housings, lubricators, smokebox darts, handrail knobs, chimney, dome etc. In other words the level of scratchbuilding does depend on you. There are quite a number of suppliers who are happy and willing to supply useful components. Two of the larger ranges are by Alan Gibson and Exactoscale - lots of useful add-ins in their catalogues.There are also components which can be used for other things although they may have an alloted use in the catalogue, I am thinking of various flanges and bearings etc.

This group of locomotves will use a mixture of bought items and scratch items and sometimes both to illustrate a point here and there. I expect a few difficult moments where I have a choice to make as to how to put things together. I am used to always having a lathe handy and also a resistance soldering iron, also higher wattage soldering irons and gas torch. I will here and there show how these useful items may be employed, but only as a quicker technique compared to a little bit of hand technique. Most of this thread will be concerned with the test build as it is bound to set up a few typical problems, but I do not expect there to be too many on such a straight forward locomotive. :)

A couple of comments about soldering may be worthwhile at this stage. (those with good soldering skills can miss out the next bit which I will colour in blue.)

Firstly soldering. Some say it is a dark art. :twisted: I don't see it that way but if you need to follow one or two simple rules. You will get used to getting it right all the time and you will wonder why anyone would think such a thing :o :!: So what are the rules? :geek:,

1) The Iron Make sure you are using the right wattage of iron and the correct tip for the job. - my normal iron is 25 watt and has a variety of easy change tips. Most of the time I use a medium tip when soldering the larger pieces together and a narrow tip which I use for the small detail work. If I only had one iron to work with this would be it. I can build everything in 4mm with this iron. My iron is a standard Antex, but it does have the heat resistant lead as there is a tendancy for irons to burn through their leads in odd situations particularly when you do not have a stand available. I have a small stand and have never bought a temperature controlled iron, but then again through experience you learn to take the iron away from the work just when the right ammount of heat has been applied. (Temperature controlled irons weren't available when I was learning to solder - in fact I learned using a bolt on top of a gas ring) :o :!:

2) Cleanliness Make sure the surfaces are properly clean before soldering together. This cannot be over emphasised and is the one thing which is most likely to be the thing which gives trouble. Some materials are difficult to clean and keep clean. Steel will solder quite happily, but resoldering can be difficult as there is a tendency for steel to rust and once rust has formed it is very difficult to clean perfectly, copper also oxydizes quicker than the rest, so will need regular cleaning if it is not going to cause trouble. Fortunately we will be using brass and nickle silver, both of which can be cleaned easily. I clean up as I go along so as not to accumulate problems and therefor seldom have a problem getting something to solder. If you are likely to have periods when the locomotive is likely to sit for even a day or two between working sessions then make sure it is well washed in hot water to remove any flux, otherwise you will have a whole lot more cleaning to do before you can get going again, better to have it ready and waiting, nice and clean.

3) Solders and Fluxes I do use a range of solders. most of the time it is 188 degeree solder (Resin cored) with Carr's green flux or black flux which will solder most of the materials except steel I use Carr's black flux only to do that. I also have a gap filler solder which comes with its own resin core. Very occasionally I will use a higher temperature solder - again Carr's 243 when dealling with some of the details when I know I am going to have to solder other items around them.


4) Quantity If not used to soldering brass or nickle silver there is a tendancy for the beginner to use far too much solder. What you are trying to achieve is a good joint each time along each joint and it is joints we are dealing with much of the time, rather than sheet against sheet. N/S sheet has a natural stiffness and strength and requires little solder to produce a good joint. It is the easiest to clean and keep clean and is ideal for joining as the heat from the iron stays close to the joint being made, whereas brass and even more, copper, conduct the heat rapidly away and require extra heat .

You will find that the best technique to use when soldering is to clean, then flux along the joint, then tack the sections together at either end and examine the relationship between them then alter and re-tack if necessary. When the relationship is right add further tacks, if it is brass sheet then do not tack from one end to the other or leave enogh time for the metal to cool between tacks
AS YOU WILL HAVE EXPANSION PROBLEMS
Tacks should be fairly small and leave enough to be able to fill the joint in between. I will show examples and emphasise this many times as we build this locomotive. The next step is to reflux the joint and to run the solder from tack to tack working alternately one end then the other until all the in between areas are linked and a neat joint produced. In the bodywork it is not necessary to put in a fillet of solder (a thicker layer of solder) to add strength to N/S joints, however using brass maybe a fillet will add to the stiffness of the body. Fillets are often used along the underside of the footplate to srengthen the footplate. The less solder the less cleaning up, also less solder means less metal taking away heat from where it is being applied. Spreading the heating, by soldering one end, then working back and forward into the centre should help to keep things parallel and correctly aligned. - most important! :thumb

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:49 pm

Now to the build.

If you can put a kit together then you can build something from scratch. If you choose something simple like this locomotive you have a good chance of enjoying the process of scratch building. There is just something about taking basic materials, marking them out and watching the locomotive take shape that brings extra pleasure and leaves you with a greater sense of achievement when it is finished.

Now it is up to you to decide just how much you want to build from scratch also you do not necessarily have to go about your scratch build in the same order as I go about it. There is no prescribed route. However I will suggest an order of construction just the same. Some things are just easier if done earlier than others.

With a new locomotive I look at the locomotive and try to think about what order to do things. With a kit I always read the instructions first to see if the locomotive has ever been built by an experienced modeller. Some kit instructions make you wonder if anyone had actually ever built one. Now of course we do not have this with something that is being scratchbuilt.

Looking at the Barclay are there any likely problems that we will encounter? One which always arises and which you will want to get right is to make sure that everything is true and level. The engine has two long side tanks almost as long as the boiler, anything wrong there is going to show up badly. The same is true of footplates. Boiler mountings must be vertical when looked at in all directions. There is light under the boiler which becomes apparant when looking through the inspection cut outs in the tanks, which means no motor or gearbox in this area. What was less apparant would be the difficulty in fitting the equalising pipe at a late stage. Does the cab roof have to come off is another question worth considering, especially if you are going to add backhead detail etc. at a later date. How will you attach it? In my case I have given myself an extra problem as I have decided to add a smoke unit of a rather unusual design which I hope to add at a latter date. This will require a modification to the chassis and how it is held by the front end of the body.

Now going by this and the fact that the chassis is already built are these unsurmountable problems? No but it will mean for me the use of a different motor /gearbox arrangement - easily changed when using my system of construction - unbolt the keeper plate disconnect the motor and rear coupling rods and drop out the rear axle. Taking care to mark or lay out the pieces so that they all go back in the same order. Take off one of the wheels unscrew the gear from the axle. Fit new gearbox and motor, re- quarter the wheel and check BtoB, temporarily re engage the coupling rods, if it runs easily down a slope then your quartering is spot on, if not tweak a little until it does, :thumb before screwing gearwheel on to axle. Re-attach wiring and do electrical test before finally soldering the crankpin knuts with a little piece of cigarette paper to stop the solder going to the wrong place! :twisted:

Normally I always start with the chassis and get that to a point where I am happy that it will work under test with some temporary weight added.
It may be necessary as in this case to alter the chassis during the build of the body for a number of reasons and I have found that I have had to make a second modification in this particular case. I will come to the reasons for this later as we rthe construction of the test build.

My overall plan is to build sub-assemblies and then assemble them together and finally add details. During the construction however, there were moments when it would have been better to have added some of the detail at an earlier stage, before assembly of the sub-assemblies.

One of the things to consider is where to drill holes and also add rivits. I would suggest that normally it is best to drill all the holes the correct size while the parts are still together on the sheet of N/S or brass unless they are very close to an edge that is to be cut, any holes like that I will centre punch and leave until the metal has been cut then drill the appropriate holes and file down the edge after the holes have been cleaned up. There are various ways of producing rivits if you want to put them in - and yes of course you can count them. Now in this drawing that I am using there are very few rivits, but a look at various photographs would have shown rivits in fairly prominent places. Normally I would have marked them out on the rear of the material and used my riviting tool to produce them while still on the flat sheet. However since this is being done partly to demonstrate I have deliberately left them all until the con struction stage - normally not the best thing to do.

One reason for building one of the engines as a test loco is to find out things that if you had known what you knew in hindsight you would have built the engine in a different order. The second and third locos will end up being better and probably easier and quicker to build and any extra components can be fabricated as loco one is being produced.

Making a start I decided to prepare the boiler/smoke box unit first. There is no firebox visible as such, but normally I would be including that at this stage. It is worthwhile considering making the boiler detachable from the smoke box via a nut and bolt. Why? Well you will find it allows you a little flexibility at a later stage when you are aligning all the main assemblies. Just a little something I have learned from experience. Two of the locomotives have a plain paint job and I am quite happy to solder everything up for them, but one loco will have lining and I will have to check to see whether it will be worthwhile to make the front cab detachable along with the roof and back cab - they were in real life and it may make the painting of the lining in these areas easier - if there is any there - I must check this out, but many of you will be building pre-group types which often had lining in these areas - difficult to get to - it will also make the cab interior easier to paint as well. It is not always possible to get good photographs of boiler tops and the tops of footplates to see rivits fitmants or colours, so there can be guesswork involved from time to time, unfortunately that is just the way of things. I have seen a photograph of one of these modelled in Black with red frames etc. below the footplate. I saw the engines every day and think I would have remembered the red, but then again was this area always dirty? The Wemyss locos were kept pretty well except in the very last days, so I recon I would have remembered the bright colour. I will also make the smokebox doors complete with detail before fitting them using the smokebox doorhandles. I just find it easier. So look at your loco and try to anticipate how you may go about the construction.

DSC03981.JPG
The cut out pieces, drilled but without rivits ( normally the rivits would already be done at this stage I would also recommend drilling all holes for handrails if possible although it would be difficult on the smokebox in this case. These I added later, plus some others which did not appear on the drawing!


I had cut out all the pieces form the nickel silver sheet using strong sharp scissors leaving, but cutting up close to the lines. Cleaning up along the lines with a needle file was all that was needed after that, there is no point in giving yourself a lot of work filing down to the line if you can trim neatly you can save yourself much time as well. If using tin snips fit them in a vice and you will have more control of the cut.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:27 pm

This is my own plan of construction for what it is worth :) (with comments based on the test build) -

1) Cut trim and square up boiler and smokebox parts, mark out positions of boiler fittings and drill holes.
2) Cut section from boiler to allow for the motor and gearbox, make front tubeplate and shape lower sides of the smokebox
3) Assemble smokebox and boiler unit

4) Fit tank sides and ends making sure of squareness.
5) Check boiler against sides for size and squareness - check the cab front for fit to boiler and tanks/cabsides. I also check them all against the footplate to make sure there is a fit and the footplate against the chassis, just in case there has to be an adjustment.
6) The tank backs can be measured and cut and fitted as well. In this case I fitted backs down to the tops of the maintainance cut outs. as that was all that was required and I thought I might need the extra space below for chips etc. - if I go down that route later. (As it turns out I should have measured and made the equalising pipes at this stage and maybe drilled some holes to make them easier to fit, fitting them first before any attachment of tanks to footplate or boiler would have been much easier and something to keep in mind for the other two.)

7) Strengthen footplate using fine 1mmx1mm L angle and check for squareness - worthwhile fitting buffer beams at this stage and checking for true, but I would suggest doing any rivits on the beams before you solder them on. Also check to see how the chassis is going to fit. Make front modification at this stage - I had decided that a piece of 2mmx2mm L angle would be used to hold the chassis in place at the front end. Leaving the rear end of the chassis to be bolted to the body. The bolt hole in the chassis required being opened up to a slot due to the bolt having to go just where the rear of the cab came - missed that subtlety when making up the chassis. I still have one chassis to make for No.16 so I will modify the design accordingly. I would also cut some of the front chassis spacer away to allow for the smoke unit I am hoping to fit later.

8) Assemble sides, front of cab to the footplate, checking to see how the boiler/smokebox unit will fit. Care in making everything nice and square will pay dividends at this stage. Check that the equalising pipe does not foul the boiler and that the boiler is going to fit OK before soldering anything in place.
9) Fit smokebox and boiler unit making sure all is square and that the boiler is centred and level and check all squareness realitive to footplate and tank sides as well as cab front. Rivit rivits on to small frame sections which appear above the footplate. These can be fitted at this time.
10) Cab back and coal bunker back can also be fitted at this stage.
11) Cut material for cab floor and fit. Make up smokebox door and detail ready for fitting. I would normally have machined them before starting along with chimney, dome and any other turnings. (In this particular case I mentioned that Bob had made up some turnings for me so that it would speed up the build of these locomotives as I want to have them all running within a month or so.)
12) Make up other details and fit. Make up strips of rivits for detailing.

When working I keep notes of things which come to me as I am always thinking ahead to eliminate problems before they occur. It can also be useful when batch building saving time and making sure if ANYTHING IS MISSING IN THE DRAWING :evil: :cry: that it is remembered and put right - in this case it is mainly rivit detail and handrails missing as well as footplate supports (Not that many bother to model them, but from certain angles they can be prominent, particularly in engines with high running plates. Barclay plates are also absent at this stage, but I am hoping to get them etched and will fit them later. :thumb

The fact that I am making some changes is not all that unusual as sometimes things cannot always be forseen - anyone who has produced a kit will know that there will be several modifications needed in etches etc. before it ever goes to market. Which brings me to a point. When I decided to go ahead with the Wemyss layout at the time I did not know that at least two other layouts of the same part of the system were already under way, both I think in OO. I discovered that Pete Westwater and friends are building a very impressive layout including Scotts Road sidings as well as Wemyss Castle Station and it is quite far on now - Pete has been kind enough to send me some photographs and it is coming on a treat. It is in a permanent home in Leven (Fife). In the Kingdom of Fife Preservation Groups coaches. He has also done some work on producing a kit which is also going to be used on the other layout which everyone can find on the internet - a very nice web site it is as well. :mrgreen:

http://www.wemyssprivaterailway.info/

This second layout I understand will be on the exhibition circuit so we may end up showing alongside one another some day. I mention the kit because I have seen some of the etchings and early builds and it looks very impressive. I will still scratch my own as I now have all the components, but that's life! Soon you will probably see these locos everywhere! :shock:

Don't let this put you off following this thread as it is only a sample of building we are looking at, I am not expecting everyone to be building Barclays! :|

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:36 pm

As usual there is a list of materials used in the build and also any tools and jigs I have used. :)

Starting with materials:-
solder 188, 243, also gap filler solder
flux - Green and Black
Nickle silver sheet with the drawing stuck to it with double sided tape. - see part 1 - chassis
sheet of brass shim
1 Length 1mmx1mm brass L angle
1 Length 2mmx2mm brass L angle
19mm tube for boiler
22mm tube for smokebox
short handrail knobs
long handrail knobs
brass bar for turnings- if you are doing your own on the lathe (alternatively a bought chimney, dome, safety valves, whistle, smokebox door handle)
2 track rivits
16"Hd BR Standard buffers (1 set) ( Markits)
handrail wire
couplings/wire
wakefield lubricator (Gibson)
2mm O/D Brass tube for equalising pipe and copper tube to fit inside (type used for mercontrol tube)
Wire bending jig (Bill Bedford)

Now the tools:
Steel ruler, calipers, sharp scissors, tin snips, hacksaw, piercing saw,scriber,small hammer,metal punch,large files and needle files, soldering iron (25 watt), scrapers,burnishing tools,masking tape,large square, small 2"x2" modellers square, vice, V block or mitering block for cutting tube. Small and large drills, Archimedes drill, wooden stirring sticks, pliers and end cutters, Ganderson Graskop riviter (Useful, but not necessary.) Small length of paxolin sleeper and glue - for handrail Jig as well as your vice of course. ;)

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:33 pm

Part 1 - The boiler

DSC03994.JPG
Here we have the three boiler sections and the three smokebox sections cut to size


Measuring up and squaring the metal. In this case I am using 19mm Brass tube as N/S was not available. I have no V block despite building engines for many years. I have in the past used my smaller vice with plain jaws opened to allow the brass to sit on top of the vice, but not gripping the tube. I do not want to distort the tube which is very easy if you try to clamp the tube in the vice. :cry:

Lately I bought a new hacksaw, turned out the hacksaw blade was rubbish, but it came with an aluminium block for cutting mitre and straight cuts - something I thought would be useful for cutting aluminium sections when I come to make my next set of baseboards. The block has a number of ribs running across it and quite tall sides and I have been experimenting with it for cutting tube - turned out to be very useable. The saw, I very quickly discovered, did not take eclipse blades and I had to alter the slots to make it take them. It looks nice, but the simpler eclipse saw is much more effective when changing blades, although the handle is less comfortable in use.

DSC04190.JPG
The boiler tube will have to be cut to make room for the motor/gearbox as well as drilled to take boiler fittings. The smokebox wraper also has to be cut along the base to allow the smokebox to be formed at the base and we also need a disc of copper or brass cut which is the thickness of the tube plate as seen above


I started by squaring off one end of the 19mm tube, well in fact, the tube came with one end square. Checking using my large square and I was delighted to find the end was square. I also checked the 22mm tube and found that that was also square! Maybe I was just lucky with this batch, but I have not always found it so so I would suggest checking just in case. I used my calipers to measure the boiler and found that I could get all three boilers (only just!) from the one piece of tube so I marked the lengths and proceeded to cut them to length. Great care should be taken to mark the lines accurately all the way around and to cut slowly and carefully.

DSC03988.JPG
Checking the 22mm tube for squareness using my large square


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Marking out the length required for the smokebox wrapper the mark must be taken around the metal and then it should be carefully cut so that the line should just show all the way around, the hacksaw will follow the straight cut in the block, you may find it easier to turn the tube as you go.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:03 pm

Marking and cutting the Boiler to position the boiler fittings and making the slot for the motor/gearbox.

The aluminium block was working satisfactorily - I think the saw and block were only £4 but a useful addition :idea: I am still following the line I took during Parts 1 and 2 in that we are doing all this with the most basic of equipment as far as possible. :)

DSC03989.JPG
Using the block's square cut the tube is sectioned - in time the block will wear, so try to avoid putting on too much sideways pressure but when new it gives a good straight cut.


DSC03990.JPG
Take the flat side of a file and gently file down to the line, the tube can be held in the block, or if it is short it can simply be held in the hand. If you have problems with holding things then there are a number of wooden shapes which can be made which allow you to hold the work while working on it. We may look at this in detail later.


DSC03991.JPG
Finish with a little bit of wet and dry and clean any swarf off the inside of the tube using a needle file and wet and dry.


DSC03992.JPG
Use your calipers to check that the measurement is correct and that all is square.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:45 pm

Remember to clean up the next piece of tube and square it before marking up.

DSC03993.JPG
Here the next boiler section has been placed on top of the jaws


DSC04209.JPG
Now place the square against the side of the tube and mark across the tube with a scriber. You do not need to try marking with the scriber all the way around at this stage. If your mitre block is accurate just cut and check for squareness, there is also another simple method which is fairly accurate


DSC03986.JPG
If you square up the edge of a piece of masking tape along your marked line and then continue the tape around the boiler until it overlaps itself and aligns with the edge then you can get a pretty good square edge - file to the edge of the tape, checking for squareness as you go. Under normal circumstances I would be turning the tube in my lathe by hand and marking out that way, but this method works and is, with care, pretty accurate. Note in this photograph the tube has already been filed to shape and I have marked on the tape the next cut


DSC04006.JPG
Now to marking out the centre line on the boiler using the square and the metal held in the block as shown. I am using a pencil which is used for marking on China or glass. It is easy to remove but gives a clear temporary mark while doing the job, it is also possible to use some permanent markers for the same job of course.


DSC04007.JPG
Here the calipers are being used to mark out the positions for the boiler mountings. The clear centre line can be seen with light scores coming from the calipers. The centre pop marks will be done using a punch and hammer to give a slight impression as I do not want to damage the tube in any way. Even when drilling I use a small drill bit held in an Archimedes drill and then open up with a larger drill, gently drilling down again with the metal held in the open jaws

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:47 pm

Now it may seem strange :? at first working on top of the vice, but I find I get very little damage to the tube this way. Placing the tube directly into the jaws and tightening up can cause a lot of distortion which is difficult to put right.

Another way to do this is to put a piece of wooden dowel rod which has an outside diameter that is slightly smaller than the inside diameter of the tube - a nice sliding fit is ideal and then use the supported tube directly in the vice. I still prefer this method as it makes you go carefully and gently. :D In this particular case I was out of the aforementioned dowel. :cry: (Not that it really mattered in the end)

DSC04012.JPG
Place the marked metal again on top of the open jaws as shown


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Use the centre punch to mark the drilling points


DSC04014.JPG
Tape the tube to the top of the vice and pre drill with a small drill then open out with a larger one until opened out to the right size for your dome etc. to be attached. Assuming you have these already made you can try them on for a fit.


DSC04016.JPG
Before doing so make sure you clean up any swarf with a bit of wet and dry


DSC04017.JPG
The boiler fitments can be made to be bolted on as in this case


DSC04018.JPG
In this case it is the base for the safety valves being checked for fit


All of this should be done with great care and gentleness of touch - you will be getting a feeling for the metal by now and I hope enjoying the process. It all reminds me of a story about Sir Nigel Gresley the great engineer taking someone around the works one day. He came across one of the workforce who was very gingerly taking off tiny amounts of metal from a locomotive bearing using a small hammer and chisel. Enthusiastically he took the tools from the workman and proceeded to show the visitor how to do the job. After a few moments of hacking violently away he handed back the tools and went on his way with the visitor leaving the poor workman behind with a completely ruined job! Craftsmanship dwells in the touch! Write it large above the workbench!

Before I have LNER enthusiasts coming down on me from all sides. I am Gresley's no.1 fan and Gresley still produced my favourite locomotives, including the V2. My friend Allan Ferguson passed on a partly built Jamieson kit of some vintage and I am hoping to get it worked up and running in the not too distant future. These kits were early but gave the modeller the chance to build in brass and tinplate a very passable model. It also introduced the modeller to some of the skills needed in scratchbuilding. Don Rowland passed on a kit to me saying " This is one for Grayrigg Allan, I thought you and David would maybe like it." The kit was for a black 5 and was produced in the 1950's and not yet built ( although I hope to start on it within a year or two - Grayrigg is a long term piece of work.) The Kit is a Sayer-Chaplan one, which goes to show the age of the beast. Again it is all metal and is a generic Black 5 - I wonder how many of these are running around built to S4 standards ( I would be surprised if there were any!) - I am looking forward to building it and comparing it to maybe a modern Gibson Black 5. Sayer Chaplan also produced Van and wagon kits - scale metal ones, with opening doors, I have several which I bought from Don in the 1980's and converted to S4 when I was expanding the museum in Melrose and needed extra wagons in a hurry. :) Could dig out some photographs if anyone is interested, the nostalgia in building such things is immense. :!:

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:38 pm

This is most enjoyable Allan and makes scratchbuilding seem possible! Now apologies if these are daft questions but the title "for starters" hopefully excuses me.
1. Is a 22mm tube a sliding fit over a 19mm one? No doubt the fitting of the smokebox to boiler will clarify.
2. Turned boiler fittings I have bought from Markits, sadly less available now seemingly, have not had any bolt protruding to go through a hole in the boiler. You will be showing how to do turnings but is the bolt in the turning and hole in the boiler necessary? If the livery is complex maybe detachable ones will be useful but for hard working dirty black locos surely not?
Congratulations on finding the time for writing another greatly useful thread!
Julian

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:02 pm

Hi Julian, thanks for your comments :D I hope you enjoy this as well and I am hoping to show that building from scratch is not quite as fearsome as some like to think. We are not building an American "Big Boy" here it is a fairly uncomplicated locomotive with plenty of space for everything and very few tricky parts to do.

As to the difference between the two diameters 19mm is not a sliding fit within the 22mm, in fact there is quite a gap. However if you look at the drawing you will see that there is a sort of shoulder between the 19mm section of the boiler and the 22mm of the smokebox. This transition between the two can be overcome by soldering a disc of material the correct thickness on to the boiler. In this particular case the disc needed is about the size and thickness of a penny. The smokebox has both a front and a back and a hole will be drilled in the rear of this and through the centre of the penny sized disc.

Having bolts and drilling holes is not a must, but it does allow you to adjust the position readily and do this with the other fitments as well until you are happy. Once you are happy it is possible to flux and solder them from underneath or it also allows you to remove them for painting if it is intended that the dome on a loco should be done as polished brass and the boiler painted in a contrasting colour.It also makes for easier lining if the fitments are able to be taken off again. So there are several advantages in doing this depending on what you are modelling. A small point to mention is that the bolt may need grinding down depending on the size and placement of the motor.

While answering Julian's points I should also mention a question which came from behind the scenes and that was - Could the straight line not be marked by placing the tube alongside the square on a flat surface and the line scribed on? The answer of course is yes this is a nice simple way to do it. It is just that I am showing how to move to working on top of the vice and showing that it is perfectly possible to draw a straight line on the metal while working on the vice using the method demonstrated as yuo may need to make several marks and it is not necessary to keep going back and forth between the two surfaces, but it is of course, whatever works for you.

I will try to find time on Sunday evening to post the making up of the boiler and firebox parts and how they fit together. It is late and I am just back from EM North at Manchester to see how the other half live. :D

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:56 pm

Having prepared the next piece of tube ready for cutting as part of the multiple build, I will go back and look at the next step in preparing the boiler. The boiler will need a cut out for the motor gearbox unit. I measure the width of the unit and calculate the width of hole I shall need. I mark the centre line down the centre of the underside and mark lines to allow me to make a cut out for the motor gearbox unit.

DSC04019.JPG
The first cut I make cuts across and I cut down to meet the two lines which mark the width of the hole required for the motor/gearbox unit


DSC04020.JPG
I then cut along the centre line simply using a pair of snips held in a vice.


DSC04021.JPG
Having cut down the centre line it releases some of the tension in the metal and it will spring out a little allowing the remaining metal to be taken out by using the snips. If unsure, a technique for accurate cutting is to take several cuts away until 2/3mm from the final line. Finally cut as close to the line as you dare the final narrow strip just curves away and cuts more readily. If you have distorted anything use the vice to even things out, there is a natural tension in a tube which releases and allows the tube to expand a little - it is not that you have done anything wrong, it is just that the cut has released the tension.


DSC04022.JPG
Clean off any roughness from the various cuts that have been made and double check by looking along the length of the tube that it is still round along its length.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:31 pm

I now make a check as to the fit of the cab front and make sure that the boiler back meets it at rught angles.

DSC04023.JPG
Here we see the boiler being checked against the cab front. The cab front still has the drawing attached and of course also shows the diameter of the smokebox If all is well then the next step is to make up the smokebox and also the transition piece between the boiler and the firebox. This disc of metal has already been cut to size and filed down to the correct thickness.


DSC04024.JPG
I would check this with my 2" modeller's square


DSC04055.JPG
I now use one of the holes in my work surface to allow me to solder a bolt in place


DSC04049.JPG
I drill a hole in the centre of the piece of material and place a suitable screw through it so that it goes down into the hole in the worksurface. I flux the complete surface and cover all with a layer of solder with a thick fillet around the bolt head.


DSC04051.JPG
The length of the bolt is only long enough to go through the material and the thickness of the back of the smokebox plus enough for the nut and washer.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:40 pm

The next step is to solder the boiler on to the tube plate. I check the fit of the tube plate to the back of the smoke box and mark the top of the tube plate as well as taking out the nut and bolt from the tube plate. The top of the tube plate is lined up with the top of the boiler for soldering as in the photograph below.

DSC03997.JPG
The tube plate is tinned with solder prior to fitting and checked against the back of the smokebox


DSC03998.JPG
The boiler is set up on the tube plate ready for soldering, aligning boiler top centre with the mark on the tube plate

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:03 pm

Since I am making 3 locomotives as a batch of engines for my new layout it was worthwhile going ahead and cutting the other boilers and making up components as I go along. It does save time overall doing this. I have often batch built wagons and am indeed doing so for the new layout, but I only ever build about 5 at a time as there is a limit to how many I do at a time for two reasons, the first is the level of interest in repetition, I find that by the time I have prepared 20 buffers,springs,etc. that is fine, :thumb it is also essential that projects are completed within a reasonable time, otherwise they may become dormant.

Unfortunately, those of you who have been following this project know there has not been any movement over the last year, but that is due to my own illness and family matters, however I am trying to catch up and will keep on posting regularly until this feature is complete.

DSC03994.JPG
Here are the other boilers and smokeboxes laid out

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:02 pm

Now the normal thing to do when building a boiler is to make the smokebox wrap around the boiler where the smokebox is of a larger diameter. However I had a problem in that I only had enough boiler material for the three boilers, but not enough to do the smokeboxes as a wrap. I also want an enclosed box for various reasons which we may come to at a later date, therefor I made the decision to build the smokebox as a separate feature. One way of dealing with the smokebox since I was using the same diameter material as the rest of the boiler was to cut the tube and allow the natural spring which is in the material when the tube was formed, to open it out. So I cut the material and checked to see what diameter it sprang out to naturally.

DSC03995.JPG
Here I am marking the cut using a small 2" right angle square.


I had marked the centre line carefully at right angles before cutting the tube with a piercing saw, I still checked to see if it had opened up evenly after cutting. The slot was going to be on the bottom of the smokebox.

DSC03996.JPG
Here the brass has been cut,sprung and is being tried against one of the smokebox profiles, to my surprise it turned out to be spot on the diameter required!

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:22 pm

The next stage is to assemble the smoke box, before doing so I changed the shape of the smokebox sides to follow the course of the reverse curve.
I did this by straightening out the lower part on both sides and bending the opposite curvature using a bar of round metal as a former and putting pressure on the metal using a wooden bar and checking it with the front and rear profile until it fits. Sorry I forgot to take a photograph of this procedure. :cry:

DSC03999.JPG
This view shows the rear smokebox plate being checked for position before soldering. Note the hole which will allow for a bolt. to connect through the boiler and smokebox. Not necessary if the smokebox is being done as a wrapper.


DSC04000.JPG
When soldering items together I often use tha sticks you find with coffee outlets. Here the front is being attached after the back plate has been fitted to the smokebox.


DSC04001.JPG
The paper pattern has started to come away a little due to the heat, but remains in place for later additions. The excess solder has been rubbed down using a small curved file and wet and dry. I like to clean up at every stage and think it is just good practice to do so.


DSC04003.JPG
At this stage I make a check to see that everything is going to make a good fit with the footplate, which it does - check that it will fit in all ways I do not solder up at this stage as there are other parts still to be made as sub assemblies.


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