Fitting Wheels

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alandoyle
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Fitting Wheels

Postby alandoyle » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:44 pm

I've a few questions about fitting wheels to axles and axles to w irons.

I'm fitting Alan Gibson wheels to Northyard 28mm axles for 21mm gauge.

Taking the Gibson wheels off the supplied 26mm axle is no problem.

When I go to put them on the new axle, I tend to push too hard on one side or other first. Then I push too hard to overcome the resistance of the fit, and end up with the wheel too far up the axle and have to move it back. The same occurs with the other wheel. Eventually I get the whole thing onto the gravity back to back gauge, usually after pulling both wheels apart a bit. At this stage I'm quite likely to pull one of them off, send it over my head and the axle down under the workbench. Anyway, I get it on the back to back again, and find that the wheel is on crooked, so I turn it around to get it perpendicular to the axle throughout. Then I measure it with the vernier calipers to check it's within gauge all around, and may need to adjust it again. Finally, I'm happy that it's in gauge, fit it to the wagon and away it goes down the test track - which doesn't have any points yet, so I'm not sure if it's really good or not.

This can't be good for the wheels, right? Is there a better way?

2nd question. How tight should the fit between bearing and pin-point axle be? A looser fit is freer rolling, but presumably leaves more scope for the wagon to slop around the place. With a tight enough fit, I can stop the wheels rolling altogether. I presume there's a reason why it's called rolling stock.

According to another thread on here, I need the w irons perpendicular and parallel, and should be able to get different bearings until this works. Who, apart from Alan Gibson's, supplies bearings? What do I need to ask for?I think I need something that enables me to push the w-irons in further to get them fully perpendicular without binding the wheels. (I've checked the axles and they're spot on at 28.00mm.)

While I'm at it, I know there's a proper term for w-irons: is it solebars, or are they the sides of the wagon frames?

(Just started my second common crossing, using the Brian Harrap method this time - somebody should give that man a medal.)

Thanks,


Alan

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Tim V
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Tim V » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:26 am

Have you thought about making simple jigs to dis-assemble/reassemble your wheels? Using a vertical drill, some pieces of hardwood should make a jig to hold the axle and the wheel. This is not a job for the hands only, unless you are very lucky.

When you pull the wheels off don't you twist them off?
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:50 am

alandoyle wrote:... While I'm at it, I know there's a proper term for w-irons: is it solebars, or are they the sides of the wagon frames? ...


W-irons are more properly called axleguards.

Cheers,
Guy

billbedford

Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby billbedford » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:55 am

alandoyle wrote:When I go to put them on the new axle, I tend to push too hard on one side or other first. Then I push too hard to overcome the resistance of the fit, and end up with the wheel too far up the axle and have to move it back. The same occurs with the other wheel. Eventually I get the whole thing onto the gravity back to back gauge, usually after pulling both wheels apart a bit. At this stage I'm quite likely to pull one of them off, send it over my head and the axle down under the workbench. Anyway, I get it on the back to back again, and find that the wheel is on crooked, so I turn it around to get it perpendicular to the axle throughout. Then I measure it with the vernier calipers to check it's within gauge all around, and may need to adjust it again. Finally, I'm happy that it's in gauge, fit it to the wagon and away it goes down the test track - which doesn't have any points yet, so I'm not sure if it's really good or not.

This can't be good for the wheels, right? Is there a better way?


Try this. It has been hidden away far too long

alandoyle
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby alandoyle » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:59 pm

Thanks, Guy.

Bill, that will be useful when I come to build an engine, thanks, and I'll put the file in a folder until then. I'm starting out on wagons and carriages for the moment. I had seen the part about putting a 'knurl' on the end to help the axle fit somewhere else on this forum during the week, but pinpoint axles obviously have that point ready sorted.

Tim, when I'm getting the wheels off, I don't usually twist them. I just rest the back of the wheel on top of a vice with the axle hanging down between the jaws, not clamped, and I apply some pressure to the point of the axle with the back of a pliers and out it pops. Now that you mention jigs, the old adage, "think first, then ask" comes to mind. So I'm having a bit of a Homer Simpson moment on that. Presumably, a small block of wood with a 3mm hole for the axle (to leave some space) and then a concentric, approximately wheel-sized hole drilled about 1mm deep to hold the wheel while fitting would work at a basic level - pop it in a vice with a wheel in the groove and an axle through the fulcrum, and close the vice to push the axle into the wheel. I suppose I could mark the axle beforehand to indicate how far up the axle the wheel should come.

Has anyone any thoughts on my other question about how tight the fit between pin point axle and bearing should be?

Thanks for the help.


Alan

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:05 pm

and I apply some pressure to the point of the axle with the back of a pliers and out it pops

IMHO this is likely to damage the points, maybe you don't want to reuse them, but for anyone who does it is best to have a bit of wood or plastic between the axle and the pliers.
Presumably, a small block of wood with a 3mm hole for the axle (to leave some space) and then a concentric, approximately wheel-sized hole drilled about 1mm deep to hold the wheel while fitting would work at a basic level - pop it in a vice with a wheel in the groove and an axle through the fulcrum, and close the vice to push the axle into the wheel. I suppose I could mark the axle beforehand to indicate how far up the axle the wheel should come.

A bit tricky to hold everything square this way, try to drill the axle hole the correct depth for the distance your axle should protrude from the wheel. As above pressing directly on the axle end with the vice is likely to damage it, and these are the axles you want to use, so put something soft over the vice jaws.
Better, if you have a drill press to hold the axle end in the chuck so there is no contact with the pinpoint, the axle is held properly vertical and you can control the pressure very finely.
Regards
Keith
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Keith
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:37 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
and I apply some pressure to the point of the axle with the back of a pliers and out it pops

IMHO this is likely to damage the points, maybe you don't want to reuse them, but for anyone who does it is best to have a bit of wood or plastic between the axle and the pliers.


I agree about the risk of blunting the pinpoints.

A fairly easy jig for this can be made with a small hole, say 0.5 to 0.8mm diameter in some metal. Chamfer/relieve the entrance by drilling a small countersink with either a small countersink bit, or a larger drill of around 2-3mm diameter. Then, a pinpoint rests on its sides against the sloping countersink edge, not against the tip of the axle.

I have a slightly more sophisticated version for 2mm scale wagon wheel assembly, which has many thousands of axles.

- Nigel

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 pm

Has anyone any thoughts on my other question about how tight the fit between pin point axle and bearing should be?

You just have to get a feel for it, ideally the axle should have no discernable end play whilst the W-irons are not pressing the bearings onto the axle ends. This is assuming you have compensation or springing. If the chassis is rigid a little end play in the axle is helpful in track holding but you should still try and keep it to 0.5mm max.
If yours are really binding then you either have far to much inwards spring in the W irons, or the pinpoints are burred, or there is a mismatch between the bearing and the axle. The bearing should always have a larger angle than the pinpoint so that only the point ever touches. Some production has violated this rule to bad effect!
See http://www.clag.org.uk/bearing-interface.html
Keith
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Keith
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:21 am

Having the luxury of a lathe, when fitting the first wheel to ther axle, I hold the axle in the chuck of the lathe and push the wheel on using the tailstock - usually with the tailstock chuck fitted so that the jaws can be closed down to press on the wheel but clear the axle. Not much good unless you have the lathe of course. For the second wheel, I use a vice. A nut is slipped over the pin point to prevent damaging the end and the loose wheel started on the axle. Another nut is put between the wheel and the vice jaw to apply the pressue to the wheel. Using a drill press is a good alternative. There is sometimes a problem of the first wheel sliding further onto the axle, rather than the second one moving into position. This method does mean that you can hold the back to back gauge between the wheels to get the distance correct. As an alternative to the nut, a better way of supporting the axle and first wheel, which I did recently, is to make up a small brass bush with a hole in it to take the axle and large enough in diameter to press on the wheel

For those without either, a blind hole (one that does not go all the way through) in a piece of wood to take the axle - the hole should be a sliding fit on the axle and then use a vice with a nut would be an alternative. There would be a tendency for the pin point on the axle to dig into the wood, so using a piece of aluminium would be better.

When removing wheels, I rest one wheel across the vice jaws, hold a piece of brass over the pin point end and then use a small hammer. The brass stops the hammer damaging the pin point. If you are lucky you can stop before the wheel is fully off the axle so you don't then have to find all the bits on the floor afterwards. ;)

Recently I modified a small screw press made about 47 years during teacher training to do this job. If you can find something suitable, that would do the job. Those with the skills and the machines would have no difficulty in making such a thing. What we really need is for someone to design a small press for fitting wheels to pin point axles and then someone to get them made.

Terry Bendall

alandoyle
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby alandoyle » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:43 pm

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. That gives me plenty of food for thought - I'll go away and see what I can do. I'm not entirely confident that I'll ever manage to achieve P4 standards of accuracy.

The clag site is an absolute mine of information. I've been browsing it but hadn't found that gem, Keith. I didn't know what I was trying to achieve with a pinpoint bearing until now, or where the point of contact was supposed to be.

Just one small further question if I may, Terry: what size is the 1st nut - small enough to press on the bearing side of the axle, or should it be >2mm so that it bears on the wheel only? (I understand the 2nd nut only bears on the wheel, obviously.)

Alan

David Knight
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby David Knight » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:08 pm

There is an article on making your own wheel puller in Scalefour News 145, p9. I have since modified the press by drilling a small hole in the tip of the shaft so as not to blunt the ends of pin point axles. This project can be done without a lathe.

HTH

David

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Paul Willis
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:22 am

alandoyle wrote:I've a few questions about fitting wheels to axles...

I'm fitting Alan Gibson wheels to Northyard 28mm axles for 21mm gauge.

When I go to put them on the new axle, I tend to push too hard on one side or other first. Then I push too hard to overcome the resistance of the fit, and end up with the wheel too far up the axle and have to move it back. The same occurs with the other wheel.


Hi Alan,

You've asked some very sensible questions, and those of us that have done these sort of things a few times tend to forget that they can be tricky.

I don't believe that anyone specifically mentioned the point that you made above...

The simple way to avoid an "overshoot" when fitting the second wheel in place is to hold the back-to-back gauge in place against the first wheel. Then you press up against it and hopefully have the two wheels mounted in approximately (give or take a thou) the correct distance apart. That should reduce the amount of tweaking needed to set the final distance between them.

HTH,
Flymo
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:21 am

alandoyle wrote:Terry: what size is the 1st nut


Usually something around 2BA or M4 (4mm thread).

davknigh wrote:There is an article on making your own wheel puller in Scalefour News 145, p9


This is a useful conversion but would not guarentee that the axle was being pushed in square (ie 90 degress) to the wheel. A variation would be to drill a hole in the end of the threaded part of the clamp and it would be difficult, but not impossible to do that without a lathe. Without a lathe you would need to carefully centre punch the end of the thread and hold it in a vice on a drilling machine to drill the hole.

Terry Bendall

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Tim V
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Tim V » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:05 pm

Have you considered the Exactoscale wheel system?

Alternatively, have you considered asking Gibson wheels to supply the wheel-sets disassembled? He can only say no.
Tim V
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alandoyle
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby alandoyle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:27 am

I hadn't realised that I hadn't checked for replies all week.

Terry, on re-reading your first post, I see you had already answered my last question. Sorry I missed the crucial detail and thanks for clarifying.

David, I have downloaded your article, and thank you. I presume the difficulty is in being sure that the far end of the G/C clamp is perpendicular to the screw: if it is, everything should be fine; if not, presumably I would mis-set everything in precisely the same way.

Tim, I hadn't considered Exactoscale. In fact, half the wheels I've bought are from Ultrascale and half are from Gibsons. Ultrascale are very helpful and will supply wheels already set to 21mm gauge on 28mm pinpoint axles and are excellent. Gibsons are producing 28mm axles for the stores but are somewhat behind: Colin informed me that he wouldn't be able to produce them for 3 months or more (about the same as the lead time for the Ultrascale wheels) so I sourced axles from Northyard in New Zealand and Gibson wheels from stores and I'm seeing what I can make of them. Colin did seem helpful, and I think he might well agree to supply the wheel sets dismounted, but I bought through the stores so didn't ask.

The simple answer seems to be that you can fit wheels properly if you have a bench drill or, better still, a lathe. Otherwise, there are various approaches which should get you part way there. I don't have either, and I don't really want to invest in heavy workshop equipment while my only working area is a study where I cannot instal it. I do have a cheap Lidl pillar drill stand, into which I can insert my Minicraft drill, and which I can set up and take down, but I couldn't guarantee that it is exactly vertical, so I don't want to trust it.

Terry's solution seems to offer the best prospects, given what's available to me, but I'm a bit concerned about the set-up for the first wheel. Time for me to go off and think some more about it.

Thank you all very much for the advice, and I'll post something on my results in due course in case they're of interest to anyone in a similar position to myself. (Progress will be slow, but I'm working on track at the moment - where progress is also slow.)


Alan

DaveHarris
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby DaveHarris » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:49 pm

As a 'new boy' can I extend Alan's original question and ask if anyone has a way of fitting W Iron units to 'open chassis' wagons, such as oil tank wagons, and also the range of ballast hoppers which are available in kit form?


Dave

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Mike Garwood » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:15 pm

DaveHarris wrote:As a 'new boy' can I extend Alan's original question and ask if anyone has a way of fitting W Iron units to 'open chassis' wagons, such as oil tank wagons, and also the range of ballast hoppers which are available in kit form?
Dave


Do you mean something like this:

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/axle_gauges.htm

or am I misunderstanding the question?

Mike

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:42 pm

if anyone has a way of fitting W Iron units to 'open chassis' wagons,
I have used the Exactoscale units from the Bernard era which had pairs of W-irons for each side instead of for each axle, they could be glued behind each solebar and did not need a floor. Not sure if these are still in the catalogue, but you can always cut the W-irons off the bridge piece and glue them individually behind the solebar, araldite recommended. Then the setting tools in the link above will help to hold everything in the right place while the glue sets.
Similar setting gauges are also in the Bill Bedford range from Eileens and are or used to be in the Exactoscale range, so have a look around at which looks better for you.
Regards
Keith
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Keith
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DaveHarris
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby DaveHarris » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:59 pm

Keith and Mike ,


Thanks for the suggestions, i will look at the options further, thanks for putting me on the right track


Dave

allanferguson
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby allanferguson » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:02 pm

Very many years ago (22 to be precise) I built a Scottish Central carriage from some of John Boyle's etchings. For some reason I didn't like rocking W irons and essayed to have instead a rocking solebar i.e. one side rocks instead of one end. It works well, and avoids problems of interference with steps etc, since these are attached (along with the axleguards and springs) to the inside rocking solebar, which is pivoted at its middle tightly against the fixed outside solebar. It seemed to give a nicer motion, since the rocking base was longer than normal. Nowadays I would spring such an animal, but it does appear that this could offer possibilities for the sort of vehicles I think Dave Harris is looking at, with an open underframe, such as tank wagons. The pivot is simply a 12BA bolt with its head reduced in thickness and soldered to the inside of the solebar. The pivot point in the dummy inner solebar is tapped to match, as there needs to be no play whatsoever.

Allan F

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Horsetan
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Horsetan » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:42 am

alandoyle wrote:I've a few questions about fitting wheels to axles and axles to w irons.

I'm fitting Alan Gibson wheels to Northyard 28mm axles for 21mm gauge.

Taking the Gibson wheels off the supplied 26mm axle is no problem.

When I go to put them on the new axle, I tend to push too hard on one side or other first. Then I push too hard to overcome the resistance of the fit, and end up with the wheel too far up the axle and have to move it back. The same occurs with the other wheel. Eventually I get the whole thing onto the gravity back to back gauge, usually after pulling both wheels apart a bit. At this stage I'm quite likely to pull one of them off, send it over my head and the axle down under the workbench. Anyway, I get it on the back to back again, and find that the wheel is on crooked, so I turn it around to get it perpendicular to the axle throughout. Then I measure it with the vernier calipers to check it's within gauge all around, and may need to adjust it again. Finally, I'm happy that it's in gauge, fit it to the wagon and away it goes down the test track - which doesn't have any points yet, so I'm not sure if it's really good or not.

This can't be good for the wheels, right? Is there a better way?.....


Exactoscale - during the Bernard Weller era - used to produce and sell a jig which would help you to properly centralise wheels on a pinpoint axle, and set the back-to-back at the same time. I don't think it's in production under C&L's ownership, but I'll take a photo of the one I have. The back-to-back was 17.67, but I added washers to mine to try to get as close to 17.87mm as possible.

The other slightly sad note is that the Exactoscale BTB S4 gauge - the only commercially-available one which gave a BTB of 17.87mm - seems to have been lost in the transfer to C&L. It's not in their updated list, and I don't know if rationalisation means that it will no longer be made.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Paul Townsend » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:42 am

The other slightly sad note is that the Exactoscale BTB S4 gauge - the only commercially-available one which gave a BTB of 17.87mm - seems to have been lost in the transfer to C&L. It's not in their updated list, and I don't know if rationalisation means that it will no longer be made.


GW Models offer an adjustable B-B gauge so you can set it to whatever you want.

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Horsetan
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Horsetan » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:42 pm

Horsetan wrote:.....Exactoscale - during the Bernard Weller era - used to produce and sell a jig which would help you to properly centralise wheels on a pinpoint axle, and set the back-to-back at the same time. I don't think it's in production under C&L's ownership, but I'll take a photo of the one I have. The back-to-back was 17.67, but I added washers to mine to try to get as close to 17.87mm as possible.....


Here is the Exactoscale pinpoint centralising jig-and-gauge which I use. Two sideplates, two lengths of studding, four nuts, four mushroom bushes, and two machined lengths of aluminium (could be done either as 17.7mm or 17.87mm).

What would it cost nowadays to produce such a tool?
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That would be an ecumenical matter.

Albert Hall
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Albert Hall » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:08 pm

The Exactoscale B2B gauges are available on the C&L website. Try putting the Exactoscale product numbers into the 'Product Search' box. That's 4CW 801A for P4 and 4CW 802A for S4. Under C&L, the product numbers have an E prefix.

I might just add that these gauges are not as shown in the above photo but an engineering drawing of the P4 version is shown in the product section of the Exactoscale website which is still up and running.
AH

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Horsetan
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Re: Fitting Wheels

Postby Horsetan » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:04 pm

albert hall wrote:The Exactoscale B2B gauges are available on the C&L website. Try putting the Exactoscale product numbers into the 'Product Search' box. That's 4CW 801A for P4 and 4CW 802A for S4. Under C&L, the product numbers have an E prefix.


They certainly weren't where I expected them to be on the site.

I might just add that these gauges are not as shown in the above photo but an engineering drawing of the P4 version is shown in the product section of the Exactoscale website which is still up and running.
AH


Yes, I had thought I'd pointed out that the gauge in my photo is for centralising wheels on pinpoint axles...
That would be an ecumenical matter.


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