Glues for wagon building, was Yet Another silly question!!!

[DaveHarris]

Having just returned to modelling after far too many years away, I would be grateful for advice on what sort of glue to use when fixing metal compensation units to the base of plastic wagon kits as I am aware that some glues can either refuse to adhere to modern plastics, or attack them and ruin a model?

[jim s-w]

Hi Dave

I just use normal superglue

HTH

Jim

[Paul Willis]

Having just returned to modelling after far too many years away, I would be grateful for advice on what sort of glue to use when fixing metal compensation units to the base of plastic wagon kits as I am aware that some glues can either refuse to adhere to modern plastics, or attack them and ruin a model?

As JSW says if there is a close join - superglue isn't really suitable for gap-filling.

I tend to use two-part epoxy. It is the five minute setting stuff, as I find that I don't need more than a small quantity at time.

As with much in P4, there are many ways to obtain a supply of feline fur... I've also melted them into the floor with a hot soldering iron, and bolted them down using 10BA bolts.

HTH
Flymo

[steamraiser]

I use superglue gel - the thicker superglue. My experience with the thinner superglues is that the bond will break with the heat of a soldering iron.

Dont forget to clean and slightly roughen the mating brass and plastic surfaces - a fibreglass brush will do.

Using a Brassmaster's or similar jig will ensure that your axles are parallel.

Gordon A
Bristol

[martin goodall]

I tend to be in the habit of using 'Evostik' for this purpose. It can be applied quite thinly and has the advantage of allowing the position to be adjusted before it goes off.

After many years, I have noticed a tendency for 'Evostik' to lose its grip on the metal to which it is stuck, but re-glueing is quick and easy.

[Noel]

I have used Evostick for many years for such jobs, used sparingly. It does attack most plastics, but not enough to be a problem when out of sight, although I would not use it where the join is going to be visible. It has the advantage of being adjustable for longer than most superglues, and will hold immediately, but does take a little time to set well enough for further work and will easily do significant damage to visible surfaces if you are not careful. It will, when properly set, be, in my opinion, more robust mechanically than most superglues, which tend to be weak if stressed along the join, especially if the surfaces were not quite flat. Unlike Flymo, I won't use 5 minute epoxy for anything, ever, since I find it pretty ineffective. This is not to say he is wrong, simply that it has never worked very well for me, which may well be operator error.

Virtually any modern glues designed for such work will do the job on any kit plastic you may come across, provided that the surfaces to be joined are clean, but some r-t-r plastics will beat almost any glue... You may need to experiment a little to find out what best suits you. If you can get hold of Model Railway Journals 101 and/or 136 [1998 and 2002 respectively, I'm afraid], they have articles on adhesives [by John Dornom and John Lythgoe respectively] which may be helpful.

Noel

[Philip Hall]

Mention of John Dornom prompts me to say that it was on his recommendation in MRJ that I started using Plastic Padding Epoxy Super Steel and have sworn by it ever since. It is quite thick when mixed (so it stays put - like to hold a coupling hook in place) and is a dark grey colour (so you can see where you've put it). It's very strong and goes off in five minutes or so, although full strength is an hour or two later. Beware though that there are two varieties of this (or at least there were a few years back). The one to go for is in yellow tubes, black hardener and grey adhesive. I get mine from Halfords. A useful property is that you can squeeze out a bit from each tube onto a piece of card and it will still be usable days later, although the grey stuff will have a skin by then, which you must peel aside. This saves me having to open a tube every time during the day when I need to glue.

When I worked in Robert Dyas a supply came in one day which was also labelled Epoxy Super Steel, but it was in blue tubes, grey adhesive but cream hardener, and it was much thicker, cheaper and nowhere near as good. When I enquired of the manufacturers they confirmed that there were indeed two types, one made in the UK, and the other in Sweden (I think) for the motor trade; it's the latter you want.

Also very good, but longer setting, is Pacer Z-Poxy, as recommended by Mr Venton of this parish. I use this for gluing steel tyres on plastic centres when the need arises.

Philip

[allanferguson]

When using the original Studiolith (steel) compensation units more than 20 years ago, I used Plasticard spacers, full width at one end, glued down, and a narrow strip running along to the other end to give the movement. They were all glued together with Evostick, and I find, 25 years later, that the Evostick joints are secure, but the plastic is becoming brittle and breaking where it has to flex. Nowadays I tend to use 5 minute epoxy for these out of sight jobs, where the load is largely compressive and the joint is safely out of sight. I have sometimes found it useful to be able to spring the epoxy off the plastic without causing damage (a bit like shifting plastic chairs glued to wooden sleepers). I've never got on with superglue of any kind, which just goes to show that we're all different......

Allan F

[Tim V]

I solder the W irons onto a brass bar at the correct wheelbase (set with the Brassmasters' jig), then glue that assembly in one piece onto the floor.

I have found that on some of my older wagons, the plasticard floor has distorted, throwing the W irons and axles out of alignment. The brass bar reduces that tendency.

Use two part Zpoxy to glue to the floor. I have no use for super glue in my modelling these days - it goes brittle too quickly for my liking.

[allanferguson]

I solder the W irons onto a brass bar at the correct wheelbase

Can we assume that yuo're using sprung W irons?

Allan F

[Tim V]

Not necessarily. I've even used the bar idea with Studiolith steel W irons.

IMG_4263.JPG

This van is sitting on my test track, I didn't notice the poor wheel on the left! Note the W iron on the left is soldered, the one on the right is held on with good old track rivets. The vac pipe runs across the view.

[grovenor-2685]

Not necessarily. I've even used the bar idea with Studiolith steel W irons.

Which is exactly what the ones in the picture look like! Right down to the rust spots.
Keith

[Will L]

I think superglue is the best way to attach metal to plastic, mostly because I find it very hard to avoid making a mess with Evostick or Epoxy glues various, and they can be a b***** to clean up afterwards. Also Evostick does melt the plastic a bit and can cause distortion and brittleness with age, not that that is likely to be a major problem sticking small bits of metal to big bits of plastic.

Getting superglue to work does require a bit of technique, but once you've got it, you will produce reliable and strong joints. Incidentally all superglues will give up it you get them soldering iron hot, not just the thin variety. But then so will Evostick and some epoxies. To give you some idea of how hot, well superglued repaired pottery doesn't come apart in your dish washer. Quite why we are discussing soldering in the context of a plastic kit assembly I'm not sure.

Thick superglues appeared when it became clear that a lot of people were failing to make thin ones work on anything except their fingers. It can be easier to get a joint with the thick variety and it will allow for a certain amount of gap filling, but thick layers of superglue tends to be brittle,and can leave a mess around the joint. So I'm not sure the baby hasn't left with the bathwater. The trick is to learn the secrets of using the thin stuff. If you want a gap filed I'd go for an epoxy.

Ideally you want to have a very thin layer of glue between the parts being glued then the brittleness stops being an issue. So the first rule is that the two parts must be a good close fit.

You need perfectly clean surfaces. It wont be clean it you've touched it since you last cleaned it. I always swab off metal with my plastic solvent before making the joint. Obviously not such a good idea with plastic so I settle for a rub with a fibre glass brush.

It is better to assemble the joint then apply the glue rather than the other way round.

Superglue goes off in the absence of air and the presence of moisture. This means you need to apply as little glue as possible, because flooding the joint doesn't work. Absence of air is just what you get with a little glue inside a nice close fitting joint, but not if the joint is sitting in a puddle of the stuff. Either it won't go off at all or it does go... very slowly. So for any small joints, applying a blob from the end of the glue tube is just no good. Leave that approach for reassembling pottery.

To apply the glue; first put a blob from the glue pack onto a bit of plastic or shiny card (so it wont soak in); breath on the pieces, this provides moisture, then assemble them and hold them still; transfer a little drop of glue to the edge of the joint on the end of a bit if wire, a cocktail stick or your smallest jewellers screwdriver, which ever is closest to hand. A thin superglue will flash into the assembled joint by capillary action, and should go off more or less instantly.

If you do put too much on, mop off the excess with a bit of the tissue of your choice, blow on the join, and give it a few moments to set.

I know this may all sound a bit complicated, but anything explained in detail does. Once you have got the trick of it, thin superglues are fast and effective, and the joints are as good as you'll get by any other means.

Will

[DaveHarris]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for your contributions. I will try both superglue gel and epoxy on sample setups and see which I prefer and what works best for me. Once again thanks for your contributions and comments

Dave H