Making a start - Irish 5'3" P4

[RobNCC]

Hello everyone.

I have recently joined the society and this is my first post! I was drawn to the society as I have simply had enough with Peco track. This lead me to the idea of using C&L track with handbuilt OO points (Possibly built to OO-SF standard as inspired by Gordon Stollidays`s Eastwood Town layout). However, I felt wrong to build my own points without first considering both EM (Sorry, is that a swear word here?!) and P4. Quite a few people have attempted tp put me off P4 by saying its fine for small layouts only, is very frustrating, wastes perfectly good wheels and chassis and so on. The EM camp have basically said "Join us!! You can keep most of your loco wheels and who really notices the missing .63mm!". as I do have a large number of lcoc, and model 1930s LMS (95% steam) I am cautious of jumping in too deep and putting myself off forever.

SO..I hear you all say...what does this have to do with Ireland? Well, I come from Belfast and have long been inspired by the LMS NCC and have spent years researching their former headquarters and MPD at York road. It has been a long term goal for me to model the station and MPD in its prime before it was ruined by the Germans in 1941. So I have decided to build a small Irish layout of a section of the NCC mainline close to where I was born. It is a simple layout with only four points. I already own two Murphy models diesels than can be converted to P4 21mm by a simple wheel change.

Clearly I will need to build all the track myself which is a challenge I am looking forward to. Clearly I will need some gauges for this and I see most of them appear to be available from the society (However no check rail gauge, will this be a problem?). I am very much looking forward to getting stuck in and am currently having a play with templot. Hopefully I'll get a change to meet a few people on the S4 stand at Model Rail Scotland (and if the stock is being brought up, hopefully made a few purchases.

Going forward, I may end up also building a standard gauge P4 layout, but I will take on this challenge first.

Any comments greatly welcomed.

Thanks,

Rob

[Philip Hall]

I'm not sure why you were told that for EM 'you can keep most of your loco wheels' because in many cases it's not true. It is true for some Hornby wheels as their flanges are quite thin, although a trifle deep, and they can be pushed out (on a few locos like the 28XX) to 16.5mm B-B and will run OK. It's definitely not true for Bachmann, as the flanges are thicker and there will be virtually no play between wheels and track. Ditto for rolling stock, there's usually room for a pushed out Hornby wheel here, although the flanges may catch on bullhead chairs. In all cases, though, the excessive width of the proprietary wheels can/will give you problems with splashers and valve gear.

Romford/Markits wheels are a little different, the RP25 profile works fine in EM, but I have sometimes been asked to convert a standard profile wheeled 00 loco to EM and they have proved to have very little play between the rails, much like Bachmann above.

Irish P4 seems a great idea - good luck!

Philip

[John Bateson]

An Irish PP class was described in Scalefour News 167 Page 18.
'Slieve Gullion', "S" class also featured on the back page.

I thought the full scale Slieve Gullion was due back in service sometime soon?

John

[RobNCC]

Thanks Philip,

I've had a look at some of my stock and gone over the wheels with a micrometer and yes quite clearly many would not really be suitable. This may force me down the OO-SF route for my LMS layout, however that's not for today anyway.

I am very much looking forward to my Irish P4 project.

However I am a little concerned about a b2b gauge and check rail gauge. Does anyone know if they are available commercially anywhere?


Thanks John,

Yes indeed No 171 is in the shop at the minute and its hoped to have her back in steam for the RPSI's 50th anniversary in two years time.

http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/171/

Thanks,

Rob

[RobNCC]

An Irish PP class was described in Scalefour News 167 Page 18.
'Slieve Gullion', "S" class also featured on the back page.
John

That's a very interesting article. It raises the question, is there an index available for all previous ScaleFour News publications or shall I just take my time and have a good sift?

I assume there are a few others modelling Irish P4 in these parts?

Thanks,

Rob

[craig_whilding]

That's a very interesting article. It raises the question, is there an index available for all previous ScaleFour News publications or shall I just take my time and have a good sift?
Thanks,
Rob

http://www.grindham.co.uk/news_index/

[RobNCC]

Excellent! Thanks Craig.

Rob

[grovenor-2685]

The various index options are given at the top of the S4 news archive, http://www.scalefour.org/forum/s4-news.php
The link Craig gave is just one of the options.
Regards
Keith

[RobNCC]

Thanks Keith!

[Terry Bendall]

However I am a little concerned about a b2b gauge and check rail gauge. Does anyone know if they are available commercially anywhere?

The Stores should have a B2B gauge for 21mm and some others. I have some. Not sure about a check rail gauge though. The stores also sells suitable 2mm axles for coaches and wagons. My son will at some stage in the not too distance future be starting a Irish layout with 21mm track, but it will be set around 2000 - 2002. I have converted one of the old Lima class 201locos by turning down the OO wheels and fitting P4 tyres and have built some of the kits available for modern Irish wagons. In issue 1666 of the News, member Harry Byrne, who lives in the Irish Republic wrote about how he converted the Murphy Models class 141 to 5ft 3inch gauge using the axles from the stores and Branchlines 14mm coach wheels. I am not a Templot user, but a friend who is drew some turnout templates for me for 21mm gauge. The track will have to be ply and rivet construction but the skills needed can be learnt without too much difficulty.

Good luck!

Terry Bendall

[grovenor-2685]

However I am a little concerned about a b2b gauge and check rail gauge. Does anyone know if they are available commercially anywhere?

Not sure about a BB gauge, if anyone would know its Jeremy at the stores. But you can manage OK with a caliper, vernier or dial or electronic. So long as you set the gauge accurately then you can happily set the check rail with a crossing flangeway gauge, you only really need the check rail gauge where you have gauge widening.
Regards
Keith

[RobNCC]

Thanks everyone.

I'll fire an email off to Jeremy now and hopefully kick the project off properly!

Thanks

Rob

[John McGahern]

Hi Rob,
Wow! What a coincidence. I have been slowly progressing into building my own Irish p4 layout based on Westport railway station in County Mayo, Ireland. Just like your story, it too is a small terminus at the end of the Dublin-Westport line and I spent many childhood summers standing for ours waiting for the next train to arrive; there were only four a day! Anyway when Murphy Models came out with the 141 and 181 classes a few years ago I had been out of modelling for years but that started me up again. Then it wasn't until the early part of 2010 that I discovered the Scalefour society as well as two great members who have been an invaluable help here in Ontario! Believe me, the difference jumping from 16.5mm 00 to 21mm makes visually (especially when modelling in the 5'3"; the "00" 16.5mm when scaled up to the prototype would be barely more than 4'! That's just under 1' 3" too narrow!) is huge! The locos look amazing especially when viewed head on with the wide gauge. So as far as gauges etc, the society as you already know has them all except for the checkrail gauge. However after speaking with a few members, the check rail isn't absolutely necessary as I have already discovered. I simply use the flangeway gauge and haven't yet had a problem running locos or rolling stock through it. Look forward to comparing notes in the future and it's nice to know I'm not alone!

Anyway, like I said before, the layout has barely started but I made a short video below on the dining room table and you can really see the difference that modelling in P4 with the broad gauge really makes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkA6JFwu ... e=youtu.be

[philip-griffiths]

Hello Rob,

Don't let anyone say you cannot build a large P4 layout, there are many (Mostyn, London Road to name two), then there is P4 21mm and for that there is possibly the best layout ever created, Adavoyle. Have a look at: http://www.templot.com/GNRI/adavoyle.htm. Martin Wynne is part of the team and I'm sure that he could advise as to sources for bits and pieces.

I saw Adavoyle when it was shown at the Friends of Cultra exhibition back eight years ago. Inspirational.

regards Philip

(sitting 5 mins walk from from the NCC mainline)

[RobNCC]

Hi Rob,
Wow! What a coincidence. I have been slowly progressing into building my own Irish p4 layout based on Westport railway station in County Mayo, Ireland. Just like your story, it too is a small terminus at the end of the Dublin-Westport line and I spent many childhood summers standing for ours waiting for the next train to arrive; there were only four a day! Anyway when Murphy Models came out with the 141 and 181 classes a few years ago I had been out of modelling for years but that started me up again. Then it wasn't until the early part of 2010 that I discovered the Scalefour society as well as two great members who have been an invaluable help here in Ontario! Believe me, the difference jumping from 16.5mm 00 to 21mm makes visually (especially when modelling in the 5'3"; the "00" 16.5mm when scaled up to the prototype would be barely more than 4'! That's just under 1' 3" too narrow!) is huge! The locos look amazing especially when viewed head on with the wide gauge. So as far as gauges etc, the society as you already know has them all except for the checkrail gauge. However after speaking with a few members, the check rail isn't absolutely necessary as I have already discovered. I simply use the flangeway gauge and haven't yet had a problem running locos or rolling stock through it. Look forward to comparing notes in the future and it's nice to know I'm not alone!

Anyway, like I said before, the layout has barely started but I made a short video below on the dining room table and you can really see the difference that modelling in P4 with the broad gauge really makes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkA6JFwu ... e=youtu.be

Thanks John,

Very interesting indeed!!! I agree that the difference between 16.5 and 21mm is huge... that's what pointed me in the direction of P4. I would be more than happy to compare notes and progress as otherwise it can be lonely journey when things don't go quite as you plan! I'm going to order that gauges now. How did you get on with building the track? What components did you use for the sleepers and timbers? I ask as it looks likes most people in the past used plywood and rivets, but it seems stores are out of 5'3" sleepers.

Thanks,

Rob

[RobNCC]

Hello Philip! Another S4 member in NI? I hear there aren't too many of us...Adavoyle played a key role in encouraging me to attempt to model P4 21mm gauge. I saw it myself at the transport museum a few years back and may attempt to travel to Dublin to see it in its new home at some point in the future. Not that my modest skill set could ever compete with the Builders of Adavoyle, but one can hope!

I should add that I am currently sitting about 1 minutes walk from the GNRI Antrim branch and about 10 from the NCC Mainline!

Thanks,
Rob

[philip-griffiths]

hello Rob,

So you had a good view of the plane circling trying to burn fuel before the emergency landing?

regards

Philip

[Terry Bendall]

but it seems stores are out of 5'3" sleepers.

Well that can be easily sorted out. I have not had a request from Jeremy to do any, but if you contact me off list to let me know how many you want, I will get some done.

And on gauges, speaking to Jeremy last nignt he has in stock back to back and three point track gauges for 21mm and also the Roger Sanders "Mint" gauge for checking the gauge. For some reason the b2b is not listed on the price list.

Terry Bendall

[alandoyle]

Hello Rob,

I've recently begun modelling to 21 mm gauge, though progress is painfully slow. So far, I've built 5 pieces of straight track, 3 ply and rivet, 2 C&L. I want to get some P4 Track Co components as well to compare, but haven't done that yet. I'm using gauges from the Society - 2 rolling and 2 trinagular, and a Roger Bond gauge for pointwork. I have steel and nickel silver track from the Society and some code 50fb for sidings - most Irish sidings are very lightweight.

I'm finding the soldering and fluxing difficult, so I've been working on improving that. My best results are with 145 degree solder paint from Carrs, which gives a nice neat finish. Ply and rivet construction is strong, but doesn't look nearly as good as the moulded plastic chairs. However, the ply sleepers look better than the plastic. I think ultimately I'll aim for plastic chairs on ply sleepers, for which I think the sleepers will need to not be drilled. These seem to be available from P4 Track Co - again, I've yet to get anything from them.

I just started filing the crossing vee for my first piece of pointwork last night. If I make any useful progress, I'll post a photo. I'm using ply and rivet for the points because I want to make some cheap trial units until I can get my hand in sufficiently to produce something workable.

In the meantime, there should be some shots below of ply and rivet track, C&L, and the piece of 00 pointwork that made me decide to abandon the narrow gauge and move to P4. There's also some Ultrascale wheels, which they'll make to order - if only I could figure out how to attach my W irons.

Other things which I'm sure you already know:
- Worsley Works do an NCC mogul - and very beautiful it looks too - as well as NCC coaches
- They also do a U, UG and T2 for your visitors
- the LMS sent 2 Jinties over, but only after the Luftwaffe redesigned York Road,
- if you put a parallel boiler on a Fairbairn 2-6-4T, it should be close to being a Jeep (or you could put tanks and a bunker on the mogul, which would probably be closer.)*
- Studio Scale Models do various bits, including some GNR, again for your visitors, who will probably end up taking over.
- RMweb has an Irish interest section.
- irishrailwaymodeller.yuku.com is a great discussion forum, though its members are mostly modern image and 00 (though there are a handful of people modelling 21mm to either P4 or EM standards.)
- the related irishrailwaymodeller.com has a decent collection of drawings

* Or you could look for a scale drawing and try to get it all right, to coin a phrase.

It seems that between myself, Philip and John, you may have just flushed out the makings of an Irish Area Group. I think there's a way to send private messages via this site if you want to get in touch. (I'll look into that one.)

Best of luck,

Alan

[Horsetan]

This Irish modelling website may in time become a useful resource

.....- if you put a parallel boiler on a Fairbairn 2-6-4T, it should be close to being a Jeep (or you could put tanks and a bunker on the mogul, which would probably be closer.)*...

Don't forget 6' driving wheels also. Quite noticeable difference there.

It might be an idea to use some of the bits from the Worsley Works NCC "W" mogul to help create your hybrid - the "WT"/Jeep was the tank version of the mogul, as I understand it.

Anyone fancy having a go at trying to build no.800 "Maedhbh"?

[philip-griffiths]

It seems that between myself, Philip and John, you may have just flushed out the makings of an Irish Area Group. I think there's a way to send private messages via this site if you want to get in touch. (I'll look into that one.)

Alan, there are a few of us, three are three S4 members in the Ulster Model Railway Club, but I'm a bit out of the scene these days what with work commitments.

regards

[alandoyle]

Rob, the work commitments are a curse. I only get an hour or 2 to put into modelling per week at the moment, and I'm trying to put that into actual modelling rather than reading websites. My first 1.2m of track with crossover is beginning to take shape, and I'll post some details when it's a bit further on. I've just discovered the joys of timbers that cross both lines at the crossover. I never noticed that before. Not usually visible from ground level, or in photos, even when I go out looking. I wonder what else I'm missing.
All the best with the construction.
Alan

[stephenfreeman]

Hi,

Just come across this thread. If you have been following the 00-SF/0-MF threads on the Templot Club, you'll know that to set the check rail, it should really be gauged from the opposite rail. I'm not sure that such a gauge exists for Irish P4. Obviously you could use the flangeway gauge at a push but it isn't really the right way to do it. Having said that, I've made a few turnouts over the years for Irish P4 and it hasn't really been a problem.

[Horsetan]

In addition to the above, Worsley Works is apparently working on a kit for the NCC "WT/Jeep" 2-6-4Ts, so it may no longer be necessary to cut-and-shut parts from existing RTR models. The 6' driving wheels appear to be the same ones used on the Stanier "Black 5", by the way. It may be as well to ask Alan Doherty how far he has got with the test etch.

..... No 171 is in the shop at the minute and its hoped to have her back in steam for the RPSI's 50th anniversary in two years time.

http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/171/

I stumbled across this thread a little late, Rob, but as I have a model of 171 under construction in 21mm gauge, would it be too much to ask whether there are any photos in existence of no.171's inside motion and crank axle?

[cja]

Just caught this thread. The old maxim 'caveat emptor' is applicable where Irish permanent way is concerned especially if you intend to model the NCC pre 1949. I haven't used Templot, but on the basis of what I have read on this forum about permanent way, data will be based around information culled from BR practice, so rail weight and railway chairs are probably likely to be based around BS 90lb per yard rail. The NCC only got some of this stuff during WW2 and the railway chairs supplied were LNER pattern with 90lb per yard rail. The NCC trains were not that heavy and certainly up to WW2 the main running line to Coleraine and Londonderry was all 60lb per yard with the branchlines30lb or 45lb per yard. Track panels were less than 60 feet and the sleeper spacing was unique to the NCC too. Some of the chairs were 3 bolt inside and others 3 bolt outside. The LNER were four bolt. The other thing you have to think about is that Irish stock was also wider, which had an effect on the width of the cess between the double track as far as Antrim. There should be enough width to allow two trains to pass in opposite direction with carriage doors open. I got all my information from the late Davy McClean who was the retired NCC P W Inspector. I long since declined to trust 'experts' who professed to know and relied on primary sources while they were still available. The truth was often more enlightening and interesting than the so called 'expert view'.

The GNR(I) is also unique when it comes to permanent way and signalling. The GNR(I) used flat bottom rail on some branchlines and sidings. This remained where traffic was light or infrequent. The GNR(I) used shaped chairs at the end of some track panels at a time. I illustrated some of the patterns of chair in the HMRS Journal in the 1980s. There was only lip service to interest in Irish railways which is why I left. Came to the same conclusion as Des Coakham, but Des left the HMRS before me. I wrote about some of my findings on NCC and GNR(I) Permanent Way in the original 'Irish Lines' newsletter. The GNR(I) used telegraph poles for both single distant and single home signals. The magnificent cast concrete bracket signals at Greenisland are now but a distant memory like the original station. The home signal off the Ballyclare Branch at Kings Moss (Kingsbog) was also a concrete post.

Had a chance to operate Adavoyle at Tony Miles home. Really enjoyed driving the train headed by the Qs that won the Model Enginner's Cup. It ran as well as it looked! Happy memories.