Sharp Practice

[Armchair Modeller]

For my first loco in P4 I have decided to have a go at a Peter K Sharp Stewart 0-6-0. Crazy, I know, but there is something about the loco and the kit that really appeals to me. A few derogatory comments about this manufacturer's products were made at recent local area group meetings. There are no proper instructions either. I strongly suspect that I am likely to need a lot of help and advice! I should really start with something much simpler, but to be honest nothing else appeals as much.

When I got the kit from a previous owner, the tender parts had all been separated from the fret, so I have no way of telling what part numbers they have. The outside frames of the tender have been assembled, but without pressing out the rivets. On the plus side though, I do have the article from Modelling Railways Illustrated, which is very helpful for information on the prototype and scale drawings.

I am busy riveting the tender body, which is not proving too difficult. I have a Cherry rivet press, which seems to be working quite well. It is a very time-consuming process though, so it will take me a while to finish.

My big query at this stage is about the suspension system supplied with the kit. I have found through Google that Peter K kits come with a Kemilway rocking cradle compensation system. Even if I choose to go with some other system, I would love to know how the suspension system is assembled and how it works in practice. To my uneducated eye, the tender appears to have a 2-point suspension, whilst the loco appears to have a 4-point suspension. I may be misinterpreting the parts, or how they are assembled. If anyone could explain it, come up with a diagram, or show me images of a completed model, I would be very grateful.

[Andy W]

A.M. you'll certainly learn a lot building this kit - but as a first loco build it's seriously not the ideal way to kick off. You'd be better off with one of the better manufactures - Finney; LRM; Gibson etc. For a start they are still in existence and therefore available for advice. I'd also suggest building a tank engine to start with.

However, I know we modellers are a stubborn breed! I just hope the experience doesn't put you off. Enjoy, and please post your progress on here.

Andy

[jim s-w]

Hiya

you seem quite aware of where the kit is weak. Always keep this in mind as a lot of people are put off by poor kits, believing that they cant build it when the fault is with the kit design all along.

Not much help, I know!

Cheers

Jim

[Armchair Modeller]

Thanks for the comments. The reason for me trying this, as a newbie, is my subscription expires early next year. I don't have time to do something else and then this in that amount of time. I did think seriously about building something simpler, but I don't really want to build something I don't like or want. Even if it ends up in a showcase, rather than as the running model I hope for, the experience of building it should be really worthwhile.

In truth, I really wanted to do some fine scale narrow gauge, but the hurdles seem to be even greater there. There appears to be no official support within the Scalefour Society at the moment - and probably next to no experience for others to pass on, despite the very encouraging spiel on the Scalefour Area Groups Narrow Gauge Study Group page that lured me to join up in the first place.

So, Sharp Stewart 0-6-0 it has to be!

In the meantime, the tender body riveting is done. There are a few more rivets elsewhere to do while I am in the mood. Then, I will have to think about where to put the motor. This is a very small loco, so the tender seems the best place to put this. It will require a lot of modification to the tender floor. I will also need to work out how to get a drive shaft through to the loco.

As in my original entry, if anyone could explain a bit about Kemilway rocking cradle compensation systems, I would be grateful.

[Armchair Modeller]

I hope no one was holding their breath - I haven't had much time to progress the build in the last couple of days, I'm afraid.

I decided to start with the tender, which I guessed would be the easy bit. So far I have disassembled the parts made by the previous owner, done all the riveting on the tender, formed the flares for the top of the tender and soldered together everything that does not need alteration or detailing. Apart from the flare on the port side, which I carelessly bent the wrong way at first, it has all gone together very well, so far. A couple of tab holes didn't line up properly with the tabs, but removing the tabs solved that one.

I added a few extra rivets where they were prominent in photos. Using my Cherry riveting tool, the riveting was quite easy. On the prototype the tender has more spots than a measles epidemic in an orphanage, so what is there can only be a crude representation of the real thing, I am afraid. They were far too small and closely spaced for me to try and reproduce every one on the model - even if I could see them, because photos are relatively poor and the drawings don't show them.

This will be a general problem with this loco - drawings and photos just don't give enough detail to model a specific loco in great detail - one of the hazards of modelling something so old, I guess. It is quite frightening how much I will have to guess - what did the hinges and catch on the tool box look like for example, never mind the detail of the brake gear?

Here is the photo....

Sharp-11-10-25.jpg

I won't give a detailed account of how I did everything, or you will all be rolling round on the floor laughing. We can't have that in a respectable organisation like the Scalefour Society now, can we.

I haven't cleaned the solder up yet, though it looks a lot worse in the photo than it actually is. There are no nasty lumps to remove, just a very thin layer where it flowed with the flux - and most will be well out of view on the finished model. I used a 40W soldering iron, I'm afraid. No expensive equipment in my household!

I want to thicken up the springs and add detail to the tender front before fixing any more parts to the main assembly. I also have to fabricate one of the steps, as one of the four for the tender is missing.

The loco itself is likely to be a much bigger challenge. I have been warned on another forum that several parts are oversize. The footplate can be shortened, but the cab will need complete replacement. I have decided that I can fit a motor in the loco after all, so I won't need to fit a motor in the tender or a drive shaft from the tender to the loco.

Still, that's a long way off yet - I want to finish the tender first. There will be a lot of extra detail not supplied with the kit to fabricate, including the brake gear, so I expect it to take a few more days yet.

[Armchair Modeller]

Another busy evening today. I added a bit of detail to the tender front before soldering it to the body. I then soldered the body onto the underframe. Originally, I was going to bolt these together, but decided I was not sure why that would be useful - maybe if I was adding a sound decoder (which I am not), but otherwise an unnecessary complication. This pushed my 40W soldering iron to its limits, particularly a the rear of the tender, where there is a fair bulk of metal to suck away the heat. The tender top was then soldered in place, after adding the water filler.

Sharp-11-10-26.jpg

I have still done nothing to clean up the solder so far, by the way - but as I hope you can see from the close-ups, excess solder is minimal, on the whole.

Fitting the springs and the handrail at the back of the tender will probably have to wait until the loco is painted. The springs, especially, get in the way quite severely.

The under-gubbins will have to wait until I have wheels. I have sussed out more or less what I need to do for the brake gear, guard irons and the water pipe from the bottom of the tank. I only ordered the tender wheels this week, due to a slight lack of forward planning. I am thinking of using sprung W-irons to hold the wheels in place. There is more than adequate room for this. To my inexperienced mind, it seems a very simple route to providing a sprung chassis.

I still have the steps to add, plus the handrails, locker details and the brake standard at the front. Looking at photos of Sharp Stewart tenders on the Web, it becomes more and more obvious that there are lots of little details left off the kit and my drawings. To be honest, the more photos of Sharp Stewart tenders I find on the Web, the more my mind boggles at the variations that existed. Some of these variations are probably post-construction, including things like brake gear differences and spectacle plates on some Furness locos. One useful piece of information is that the Furness Railway 0-4-0, currently at Shildon, has a Sharp Stewart 4-wheel tender. I am almost tempted to pay a visit, especially as the loco is supposed to be in steam this weekend. It is a 250 mile trip though, so I may have to resist the urge to go.

One query someone might be able to help me with is what to use for the beading strips along the edges of the sheeting. Some "beading strips" are supplied with the kit but I fear they will look nothing like the real thing when in place. I did think about using wire, but maybe experienced modellers have better ideas?

Although it is still early days, I am generally pleased with how well work on the tender is going. Probably beginner's luck, I guess! Please do tell me if I am doing things wrongly- or even if there are better ways of doing some of the things I am working on. This is supposed to be a learning exercise for me, after all.

[BryanJohnson]

What shape and size does the beading strip need to be?

Bryan

[Armchair Modeller]

Hi Bryan - thanks for the reply.

A photo of a similar loco and tender is the best I can do for size - drawings are not really very helpful.

Have a look at this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Furne ... _No_20.jpg

The beading around the cab appears to be double sided and quite narrow. On the tender, though it is difficult to see, there appears to be slightly broader beading on the outside only, at a guess.

Sorry I can' be more precise. I really ought to go to Shildon and have a good look.

For the cab beading I also had the idea of soldering on code 40 rail and filing it down. I did that for the top edge of the tender front, which looks OK.

[Andy W]

Probably an obvious thing to say, but keep all your old frets and they'll provide you with a variety of useful beading etc.

[Mark Tatlow]

One query someone might be able to help me with is what to use for the beading strips along the edges of the sheeting. Some "beading strips" are supplied with the kit but I fear they will look nothing like the real thing when in place. I did think about using wire, but maybe experienced modellers have better ideas?

The beading on the Highland's loco's was round and something like a 1 1/2 inches dia. I have some pictures of the Jones Goods 103 that will show it back at home. I am not sure if it will be the same with yours but might well.

I found the best way of doing this was to use wire of around 0.6/0.7mm (slightly too big but it seems to be a bit lost at true scale) that is soldered along the top of the flare but so that it sits forward a little bit to give the impression of the bead. The rear can be filed back flush with the rear of the metal that forms the flare, giving the impression that this face is flat.

if you look at my "Highland Miscellany" thread there is a picture of a Jones Goods and you might be able to pick this up in the photo (although it is not really tryign to show it!).

[John Bateson]

For the beading I have it on good authority that 0.7 mm beading 'D' section will be available from Eileen's shortly.
John

[Armchair Modeller]

Many thanks - that is all very useful information.

Very careful study of photos suggests that I may need 3 types. The beading around the cab seems to be round, mounted both sides. The projection of the cab side forward of the cab front have very flat beading, whereas the tender flare sounds more like what Mark describes.

This is the only really decent photo I have found of one of these locomotives so far http://CumbrianRailways.zenfolio.com/p1 ... /e1ab16ab8

[BryanJohnson]

Having asked a question then going offline for nearly 20 hours, I'm now not the first to give an answer.

I was going to suggest the D section as one possibility, although having seen the prototype photo the current offering from Eileen's at 1mm x 0.5mm would probably be too large. The smaller section on the way will be very welcome.

The other alternative of wire has also been proposed and would give a readily available solution. Using a soft wire will be easier to fit and file or smooth to shape. It would be fairly easy to try some out on some spare etch until you found which diameter wire looked best.

Bryan

[Armchair Modeller]

Bryan,
Thanks for the suggestions. Beading experiments sounds like a good idea

[hughesp87]

Reading this thread had me searching back through my collection of Cambrian Railways research material gleaned about 30 years ago when Bryan and I were members of the same group in Cheshire and in many respects novices in P4!

This photo is from the Real Photographs series and shows some nice detail of the loco, although in this case it comes with a 6-wheel tender. I also have a copy of Mike Morton-Lloyd's drawing of the Cambrian Sharpie, which does have the 4-wheel tender, and finally the same gentleman's article on the class in Modelling Railways Illustrated. If you'd like to contact me off-line, I can arrange for copies.

I'll be very interested in progress. Maybe that Cambrian layout will get built one day!

Regards,

Geraint Hughes

[Andy W]

What a beautiful machine.

[Armchair Modeller]

Reading this thread had me searching back through my collection of Cambrian Railways research material gleaned about 30 years ago when Bryan and I were members of the same group in Cheshire and in many respects novices in P4!

This photo is from the Real Photographs series and shows some nice detail of the loco, although in this case it comes with a 6-wheel tender. I also have a copy of Mike Morton-Lloyd's drawing of the Cambrian Sharpie, which does have the 4-wheel tender, and finally the same gentleman's article on the class in Modelling Railways Illustrated. If you'd like to contact me off-line, I can arrange for copies.

I'll be very interested in progress. Maybe that Cambrian layout will get built one day!

Regards,

Geraint Hughes

Many thanks Geraint - I already have the article from MRI, but thanks for the offer. I think my problem is mainly with the detail not shown on the drawings, to be honest. Looking at the FR image linked up above http://CumbrianRailways.zenfolio.com/p1 ... /e1ab16ab8, there are lots of intricate little details all over the loco that add considerably to its personality. Your photo of the rebuilt Cambrian loco looks very tidy in comparison- but it is a superb image and gives me a few answers to my queries, so it was well worth posting here.

Good luck with the Cambrian layout. It must be worth doing if you have the excuse to model and run locos like this!

[Will L]

..This pushed my 40W soldering iron to its limits, particularly a the rear of the tender, where there is a fair bulk of metal to suck away the heat....

Using 145 degree solder will help. It works just as well as the usual 188 degree stuff.

Will

[Armchair Modeller]

Using 145 degree solder will help. It works just as well as the usual 188 degree stuff.

Will

It was a right angled joint, so perhaps I should have used 90 degree solder

Sorry - only joking - many thanks for the tip.

[DougN]

Hi Armchair, Will has suggested using the lower temperature solders. Can I suggest the technique I am using and you may think I am joking but I am serious. When soldering try to use as little as possible to start. You can always add more later to the joint and it will flow slightly better as it will stick to its self faster than to the Brass, also the joint will need more flux but as the brass is warmer the joint flows.

I am using a 180degree solder ( I think) It is about 2mm in diameter but the thinner you can get the wire/lumps the better off you are! I use a bubble of about 2mm on the tip of the iron.

BTW Good on you for having a go at a kit. Half of the difficulty is getting the determination to have a "go".

[John Bateson]

I use 'Nealetin' to make the initial joints, its a liquid solder sold in a tin. The main advantage is it is parsimonious in use and any excess is easy to clean off with a fibre brush. Espacially good for overlay areas.
If the joint, such as a 90 degree one needs stiffening, simply add a little to the joint and then your standard solder wire.
John

[rule55]

John,

I gather from the GW Neale website that Nealetin is self-fluxing. I take it that you don't use an external flux when using this solder. How does it compare with our 'traditional' Carrs fluxes with respect to corrosion and cleaning up?

Cheers,

Tony

[John Bateson]

Yes, it is, as can be seen if you just wipe it on for a couple of minutes and then wipe it off.
I don't use other fluxes, I have always thought the Carrs stuff was far too expensive when purchased from a modelling shop.
If you are (Rule55) who I think you are then perhaps I can arrange a short demo on the first Sunday in December
John

[grovenor-2685]

John,
Are you using the Nealetin 'pure tin' or the solder version?
And how well does it last, the suppliers seem to be offering industrial quantities.
Thanks
Keith

[John Bateson]

Keith,
http://www.gwneale.co.uk/nealetin.html
Its in a small plastic tin, 50 mm deep and 70 mm across with orange labelling, cost a tenner from AG before Scalefour North moved into its new location and still half full.
John