Converting modern era RTR wagons

[workev]

As part of my potenital move to P4 I want to try and convert some freight stock to P4 from RTR. So I have a few questions.

1) Can I simply replace the wheelsets from the RTR stock with P4 ones; and if so which sets can people recommend?

2) I see many references to Black Beetle wheels from Branchlines, but am struggling to find an up-to-date website or supplier of the Black Beetle wheels 0 are Branchlines still in existence?

3) Is it essential to use compensation units for wagons. I see a lot of references to W-irons, but these are for older stock and not suitable to the newer wagons does anybody sell bogie sets suitable for P4 for things like TEA tanks, or the bogied-hopper wagons; or the freightliner wagons even?

4) I have seen in many articles the use of a buffer height gauge, are these essential to use for all stock?

Many thanks,

Ian

[craig_whilding]

4) I have seen in many articles the use of a buffer height gauge, are these essential to use for all stock?

Many thanks,
Ian

Getting buffer heights well matched up is generally needed when you use a coupling system where the buffers actually do something such as 3-link or Alex Jackson. For something like Kadee you only really have to get the coupling in the right place.

Bogie stock should be ok with a wheelswap. Alan Gibson wheels are generally the cheapest around. Something like a TTA though or the modern long 4 wheel stock could ideally do with springing via the Bill Bedford w-irons in my opinion. they are a bit modern for my period though so i'll let others give conversion details.

DC Kits sell the Black Beetle wheels though I think they list them under the parent company, something like Steam Lines Australia? I think BRanchlines is still going but sadly the new owners haven't done much with a web presence. The email should be on their wordpress blog?

[grovenor-2685]

Steam Lines Australia

Should be Steam Era I think, and Branchlines are still in business, both DC kits and Branchlines had the wheels at Scaleforum.
Keith

[craig_whilding]

Steam Lines Australia

Should be Steam Era I think, and Branchlines are still in business, both DC kits and Branchlines had the wheels at Scaleforum.
Keith

Thanks Keith, I knew it was something to do with Steam .

[David Thorpe]

1) Can I simply replace the wheelsets from the RTR stock with P4 ones; and if so which sets can people recommend?

First of all, try to do a straight swap from the 00 wheels to P4 ones. If the latter fit, and it's a reasonably short wheelbase vehicle, chances are that's all you'll have to do. You might also be lucky with bogie vehicles. If they don't, then you'll have to think about installing a new underframe and springing system - wagon compensation has now fallen into disfavour and about time too, some would say.

4) I have seen in many articles the use of a buffer height gauge, are these essential to use for all stock?

I find a buffer height gauge useful. I made my own using this design: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/wshopnot ... tGauge.pdf ./ Easy to make and works perfectly.

DT

[Paul Willis]

1) Can I simply replace the wheelsets from the RTR stock with P4 ones; and if so which sets can people recommend?

First of all, try to do a straight swap from the 00 wheels to P4 ones. If the latter fit, and it's a reasonably short wheelbase vehicle, chances are that's all you'll have to do. You might also be lucky with bogie vehicles.

Just a quick addition to that - have a careful think about the weight of the wagon you are converting.

I completely agree that a straightforward wheelswap is a good way of seeing if any further work is needed. However when I've played around with RTR stock, I've found them a little light to stay reliably on the track.

If you can weight them up to the level that is broadly (nothing in this hobby is ever unanimously agreed on!) agreed on of 25g per axle, I believe that you will get much better results.

HTH
Flymo

[workev]

Yes I have seen that making wagons up to a weight of 25g per axle is a good way to go. On our club layout Attam Bank (at Hazel grove on 29/30 October) we have discovered this through derailments of lighter wagons.

I guess that emailing Alan Gibson directly to see what they recommend for each wagon type is a good way to start?

Ian

[grovenor-2685]

I guess that emailing Alan Gibson directly to see what they recommend for each wagon type is a good way to start?

I rather doubt that Colin and team at AG are spending their time converting one of each wagon type. I would suggest that asking on here about specific wagons would likely be more productive.
Regards
Keith

[Terry Bendall]

My method for VAA and VGA wagons is to use an MJT ourside bearing rocking W iron on one of the axles, and to use the existing moulded plastic W iron at the other end, with brass bearings fitted. They all work very well. Some surgery is needed to the wagon floor to get the ride height correct. Some people of course don't like the idea of a rocking W iron and if so I would use Bill Bedfords sprung bearings.

Terry Bendall

[Philip Hall]

I also go the MJT route on many wagons, although I generally use the inside bearing version for the rocking axle. They're not as free running as pin points of course, but the cusp in the etched hole gives you something like a knife edge bearing and with a little oil, runs well. I use this on both conversions of RTR stock and kit builds; it saves all the messing around cutting springs and axleboxes away and fitting an etched W iron. I do concede that this is probably not the way to go if you want to have very long trains.

But for many short wheelbase vehicles I just change the wheels, adjust the brakes and put in a little extra weight to bring them up to 50g or so and they run just fine.

Philip

[Paul Willis]

Yes I have seen that making wagons up to a weight of 25g per axle is a good way to go. On our club layout Attam Bank (at Hazel grove on 29/30 October) we have discovered this through derailments of lighter wagons.

I guess that emailing Alan Gibson directly to see what they recommend for each wagon type is a good way to start?

Hi Ian,

As has already been mentioned, the Alan Gibson range (nor anyone else's for that matter) doesn't match specific wheels to specific prototypes.

Have you had a look through the AG catalogue? It's on the web at http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Catalogue.pdf There are a couple of pictures in it as well so that you can see what you're getting

You can describe the situation broadly as "wheel type X in size Y", and then look to see what matches the prototype. There is a split in the catalogue between wagon and coach wheels but IMHO that is just semantics regarding size.

You have:

Code Scale Size Description

4007 2’7½” 10.5mm Plain disc ‘Lowmac’ wheels
4008 2’7½” 10.5mm 10 spoke ‘Lowmac’ wheels
4012 2’7½” 10.5mm Disc wheels (with Disc brakes)
4017 2’7½” 10.5mm 8 spoke (plain) wheels

4000 3’1½” 12mm 8 spoke (plain) wheels
4001 3’1½” 12mm 8 spoke (open) wheels
4002 3’1½” 12mm 3 hole disc wheels
4006 3’1½” 12mm 10 spoke (plain) wheels
4011 3’1½” 12mm Mansell Wheels
4013 3’1½” 12mm 12mm Disc wheels (with disc brakes)
4018 3’1½” 12mm 12mm 4 hole disc wheels
4009 3’1½” 12mm DMU plain disc wheels

4003 3’7½” 14mm 8 spoke (open) wheels
4004 3’7½” 14mm Mansell wheels
4005 3’7½” 14mm Plain disc wheels
4010 3’7½” 14mm 8 spoke (plain) wheels
4014 3’7½” 14mm Disc wheels (with disc brakes)
4015 3’7½” 14mm 10 spoke (plain) wheels
4016 3’7½” 14mm 4 hole disc for Pullmans

So you can see that there is quite a choice. "Open" is the AG term for what is also called "split spoke" but for your period I suppose that is not really relevant.

The most important thing, if you're ordering them without speaking to Colin, is to make sure that you specify "S" in the code, or you will get OO wheels! This is all set out in the catalogue anyway.

There is, from time to time, discussion of the perceived differences in quality between AG wheels and other makes. If I was to use a car analogy, in my view AG wheels are clearly the Volkwagen of the set. Whether you want/need/can pay the extra for Mercedes price and quality is really a personal decision for you. I've used AG wheels for many years and have had the occasional hiccup, but nothing that is critical, and at the price... Also Colin is very good at sorting out any issues that you may have if you speak with him.

HTH
Flymo

[craig_whilding]

There is, from time to time, discussion of the perceived differences in quality between AG wheels and other makes. If I was to use a car analogy, in my view AG wheels are clearly the Volkwagen of the set. Whether you want/need/can pay the extra for Mercedes price and quality is really a personal decision for you. I've used AG wheels for many years and have had the occasional hiccup, but nothing that is critical, and at the price... Also Colin is very good at sorting out any issues that you may have if you speak with him.

HTH
Flymo

Blimey if those are Volkswagen who makes the Ford ones? (says someone who couldn't afford the Volkswagen!).

At £4 an axle though Ultrascale are clearly Rolls Royce.

[Tim Horn]

Hi Ian,

It's worth checking out Colin Craigs wheels, http://colincraig4mm.co.uk/#/wheels/4532599919

Cheers
Tim

[Paul Willis]

As part of my potenital move to P4 I want to try and convert some freight stock to P4 from RTR. So I have a few questions.

1) Can I simply replace the wheelsets from the RTR stock with P4 ones; and if so which sets can people recommend?

Hi Ian,

As a follow up to the question that you asked a little while ago, some browsing on RMWeb through up this - "comparethewheelset.com"

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46123-comparethewheelsetcom-p4-wheelset-suppliers/

Hopefully it gives you some more background to the choices available.

Cheers
Flymo

[craig_whilding]

I think the OP is working out if he wants to go EM at the moment Paul http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... e-than-p4/

[Paul Willis]

I think the OP is working out if he wants to go EM at the moment Paul http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... e-than-p4/

It has to be said, that's an excellent thread for discussing the pros and cons of the finescale approach to modelling. Even if my particular RMWeb bete noir of Mod6 did leap in early on with the wrong end of the stick - as usual...

Whatever choice he makes, I only hope that it meets what he's looking for - whether that is P4, EM or finescale OO. The only thing that I would question is the approach of pulling wheels out for EM as a means of saving money. Yes, it probably can work for some rolling stock, but as another (EM I think) poster pointed out, to get consistency you need to change all the wheels anyway.

Personally, at the age of 16/17 I tried EM for about six months and was halfway through building the chassis of a GWR 2-4-2T with Romfords on EM axles. Then I went to ExpoEM at Paddington and saw P4 for the first time and the rest is history, as they say...

Flymo

[steves17]

I'm new to P4 and modelling in general. I'm progressing on with my track, but of coarse i need something that will actually run on it. I brought some P4 wagons off E-bay a month back. They're very basic, as they have no compensation or springing but run ok on my temporary track. In the last few days I won from another bid for a number of "compensated" wheel sets for wagons or four wheeled coaches. There is no marking or info on them but going through this site I am now positive they are "Compensated W-irons, etched brass, RCH type for 5' 3" gauge (28mm axle)" - the first one down the store list with a picture. The trouble i'm having is, I can't see how they actually rock. All of them all assembled except for one that is unmade. On that one there is the axel fold up- that all of the built ones have, i.e. they have just been bent at the two sides with the wheels and axel going though, but next to that are two rectangle pieces that are to be removed. Its the exact dimensions of the top piece so I presume one of these is supposed to go on top. I've been looking in the forum about construction without success. If there is an article or an instruction download any one can point me to that would be helpful. I'm guessing that all the built ones can't rock without this bit of the etching, but I really have no clue.
I suppose I can just stick these under some OO gauge short wagons and add a bit of weight and that will be ok, but I was really hoping with these bought ones I could have something with some form of suspension to get me started on my first layout.
This will be a no brainer to most, but help would be appreciated.
Ta

[Paul Willis]

I'm new to P4 and modelling in general. I'm progressing on with my track, but of coarse i need something that will actually run on it.... In the last few days i won from another bid a number of "compensated" wheel sets for wagons or four wheeled coaches. There is no marking or info on them but going through this site i am now positive they are "Compensated W-irons, etched brass, RCH type for 5' 3" gauge (28mm axle)" - the first one down the store list with a picture. ... I've been looking in the forum about construction without success. If there is an article or an instruction download any one can point me to that would be helpful.
This will be a no brainer to most, but help would be appreciated.
Ta

Hi Steve,

You may not have come across this, but as a Society member you have access to all of the Digests that have been produced on the website. You should also have had them on a CD when you joined, but like me you may have a computer that can't read CDs.

You'll find them in the Members' Area, at http://www.scalefour.org/members/digests/.

I'll admit that I can't properly visualise what you have bought from Ebay, and what state it is in. However the two digests that may give you a very clear view are:

- 42-4-1 "Using the Society W-irons"

- 42-9-3 "Converting plastic wagon kits"

Have a read of those, see how it matches what you have in your hand, and give us a shout back about any issues. I completely understand how daunting some of this can be if it's all unfamiliar, but your not the first by any means to step down this road.

Happy modelling!
Flymo

[steves17]

That was exactly the kind of thing i was looking for but could't find. Thanks. It looks like all my built units are indeed missing these extra pieces ( with two un-built exceptions) Grr. I will have to double check the packaging and then complain to the seller.
I don't suppose the shop sells the missing bits of image four in the Scalefour Digest 42.4.1 digest sheet individually is there? Nothing I do seems as easy as it should be. Guess my track will have to be flawlessly built
Much obliged Flymo.

[Paul Willis]

That was exactly the kind of thing i was looking for but could't find. Thanks. It looks like all my built units are indeed missing these extra pieces ( with two un-built exceptions) Grr. I will have to double check the packaging and then complain to the seller.
I don't suppose the shop sells the missing bits of image four in the Scalefour Digest 42.4.1 digest sheet individually is there? Nothing i do seems as easy as it should be. Guess my track will have to be flawlessly built
Much obliged Flymo.

You're talking about the (badly) circled parts here?

Digest 42-4-1 v1-3 Wagon Compensation Using Society W-Irons_page2_image1.jpg

I'm afraid that the Stores don't sell them separately. They are an integral part of the fret, as you've probably seen from the unbuilt ones that you have. However...

I'm working on a little project that means that I will have a load of these spare from unbuilt Society w-irons that I already have. Drop me a PM with your address and how many you need, and I'll pop some in the post to you.

Cheers
Flymo

[Terry Bendall]

Hi Steve

Are you modelling 5ft 3in gauge? If not I think these W irons will be too wide.

Terry Bendall

[steves17]

Nice one Flymo. I will take you up on your kind offer. I've contacted the seller incase he still had them but i'm afraid he doesn't. I would require 25, if you did have that many spare, that would be amazing - if you don't, I will keep some for short wheel based wagons that I can weigh down.


Looking at them closer I can see they aren't quite the ones from the digest sheet- but look very close. I now think that they are these 2295 Compensated W-irons, etched brass, BR standard type (MJT) - The second type from the bottom of scalefourstores with a picture.
Here are some photos of what I have.http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o731/steves17/P3280756_zpsa5e63d99.jpg[/img]
[img][IMG]http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o731/steves17/P3280758_zpsd946653c.jpg[/img]/img]
[img][IMG]http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o731/steves17/P3280759_zps9ff0a067.jpg[/img]/img]
They only thing with a mark is- ED157 on a thin fret- i'm still learning the terminology but think these are horn blocks ( could very easily be wrong on that )[img][IMG]http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o731/steves17/P3280762_zpsa5526094.jpg[/img][/img]

Terry 5ft 3in would be broad gauge right? Just checked them on my track and they are normal P4 size so thats one alarm bell that I don't need to ring.
Ta

[grovenor-2685]

They only thing with a mark is- ED157 on a thin fret- i'm still learning the terminology but think these are horn blocks ( could very easily be wrong on that )[img][IMG]http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o731/steves17/P3280762_zpsa5526094.jpg[/img][/img]

Assuming thos little squares are about 3 mm high, then they are backing plates for 3-link coupling hooks, definitely not hornblocks.
Regards
Keith

[Russ Elliott]

Steve - if you haven't got the etched rockers, use a bit of 0.9mm wire through the holes of the W-iron, and put some trunnions (bits of plasticard/brass/whatever) on the wire both sides of the W-iron to constrain its longitudinal movement. Using the wire is a better way of rocking the W-iron IMO, and saves you valuable headroom.

Digest 42-4-1 v1-3 Wagon Compensation Using Society W-Irons_page2_image1.jpg

w-iron-trunnion.png

[steves17]

I've learned loads since abandoning OO, but still there is much I haven't touched on yet- thanks for the correction Keith. I think I meant to say axel boxes, but still would have been wrong.

Thank you Russ for setting me strait on this. If you're reading this Flymo, then I should be ok, as I will give the wire trick a try.