New to modeling

[Tomek]

Hello everyone!

First I want to apologize for my English because I'm French and I can often make some mistakes.
I am only 18 years old so I haven't any railway modeling skills. But I've always been interested in trains.
I used to travel to London to see my grandmother and I can't think about my journeys in London without the hours I've spent on the London Underground!
It is difficult to explain it for me, but I've always been much more interested by British trains, not the French ones. I think railways in Britain have much more "character" than the French ones.
Railway modeling interested me since I was a small boy and I used to go to some exhibitions in Paris to see layouts in H0 scale.

Since that I've always dreamed about a layout representing the London Underground. I've searched for some time information about modeling the tube, however the disproportion of the wheels and the cars to the track in OO scale was a problem for my will to search the way to achieve the best realism for my planned layout. Also I wanted the rails to be very similar to the one used one the Underground lines, I had to find bullhead track and the insulators supporting the conductor rails ( I seen the PECO ones and they weren't looking very real ). This is how I found the scalefour society and how I learned about the P4 gauge. I liked also that you were making the track yourself, with sleepers made of real wood instead of plastic.

What attracted me the most in P4 modeling was that you were making everything to look the most realist possible. ( I spend lot of time in drawing, so I give much importance to the small details which makes something look real )
This is why I joined the scalefour society.

Because I don't know much in modeling and I don't have any experience, I would like to know what is the best way to start. I don't have any British ready to run models ( I bought only few EFE London Underground Tube cars, but anyway I will have to change the poor quality wheels and motorize the unit), and my French locomotives and coaches can't be converted to P4 because they are in H0 scale and I can't use them for representing British railways. I think that it is better to wait for me to have a little more experience in modeling and to make something much more simple and easy before starting a London Underground layout.

Thanks for reading

Tomek

[Russ Elliott]

Hi Tomek: here are some links which I hope you might find useful for LT modelling in 4mm:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russelliott/3rd-4th.html
http://clag.org.uk/crs.html
http://clag.org.uk/crs-drilling-jig.html
http://clag.org.uk/tube-bogie.html

The Scalefour Conductor Rail Supports are a bit fiddly to assemble, and C+L do some alternative cast brass ones.

[Paul Willis]

Hi Tomek, welcome to the Scalefour Society

I have a couple of very good friends that are really keen enthusiasts of the London Underground system.

I mentioned to them that you also had an interest. They recommended that you sign up for "District Dave's London Underground Forum". It's at http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi

There you'll find lots of information and help on the prototype. And for the modelling, then please do ask on here.

You mention that you'd like to try some easier modelling first. For first steps in P4, you could try a "drop-in" wheel conversion. Ultrascale do a set of wheels for the Bachmann GWR Class 8750 Pannier Tank. I'm afraid that I don't know how easy it would be to convert the model to one of the Panniers used by LU, but it seems a good start.

There is also an article by Mike Ainsworth in Scalefour News no. 166 on how to convert a Jinty. This is a very similar model to the Pannier, so you can see what is involved. All of the back issues of the Scalefour News are available for you to download from the members area of the main Society website. The only thing that cannot be helped is the waiting time for a set of Ultrascale wheels. This is normally a number of months I'm afraid, but you could get in contact and enquire. The wheels I'm referring to are at the bottom of this page: http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/ucp0001.php

Cheers
Flymo

[grovenor-2685]

The only thing that cannot be helped is the waiting time for a set of Ultrascale wheels.

You can, however, get conversion wheelsets from Alan Gibson without any need to wait but the wheelsets do need fitting to the axles and you have to transfer the gear from the original axle. This is a reasonably straightforward job.
The Scalefour News archive is here http://www.scalefour.org/forum/s4-news.php

I think the Bachmann pannier tank has been sold in LT livery in the past and you might find one on eBay. LT used them for works trains in the 1960s.
Regards
Keith

[Tomek]

Hi!

Russ: Thanks for the links I knew already the first one, but the other were very useful for me.

Flymo: Thank you for your idea, I like it! The GWR pannier tank used on the London Underground was the 5700 class
(I've checked in my "The history of London Underground" book).
Are the Ultrascale wheels of the 8750 compatible with the 5700 GWR pannier tank?
Because on ebay I found some Bachmann 5700's for £40/£50.
Waiting a few months isn't a very big problem for me.

Keith: Thanks for the link, but I already have the no°166 scalefour news.
If the extra job needed to use Alan Gibson wheels isn't very difficult, it can be a good alternative.
But which wheels will I have to choose?
Because I don't understand how is organized their catalogue on their website. ( Ultrascale's website is easier to understand )

And what is the difference between the wheels coming from Alan Gibson and Ultrascale?

Regards

Tomek

[grovenor-2685]

But which wheels will I have to choose?
Because I don't understand how is organized their catalogue on their website. ( Ultrascale's website is easier to understand )

And what is the difference between the wheels coming from Alan Gibson and Ultrascale?

Yes, since they started doing the website themselves its a mess, but the info is there, you need to click on 'catalogue' which downloads a .pdf file then the conversion wheels for rtr are on page 24. The Bachmann pannier is listed as 4800/14, you need to follow the instructions for ordering P4 wheels (AG calls them S4) so you don't get the 00/EM profile.

The Ultrascale wheels come as assembled and quartered wheelsets with a drive gear and crankpins fitted. The AG wheels come as 6 wheels and 3 axles, you need to order crankpins seperately and assemble the wheelsets using the drive gear from the Bachmann loco. You learn a lot more that way than the Ultrascale route.
Regards
Keith

[Tomek]

Hi!

Sorry that I haven't replied before but because I am a student, I have some exams this week so I don't have a lot of time.
Thanks a lot for explaining me everything about the AG wheels.
I've searched a little bit on the internet but I couldn't find a LT livery pannier tank.
So I decided that I will buy a BR or GWR one and we will see what is necessary to do for converting it to LT.
I will ask on the "District Dave's London Underground Forum" if they have some photos of these locomotives when they were used by London Underground.
You convinced me for the AG wheels, I will order them when I will buy this locomotive on eBay.

Now I would like to ask for the track, I've seen in the "Moving to P4" guide that there are a lot of different way to make bullhead track, (plastic moulding, individual chair moulding, plastic or plywood sleepers, ...)
I would like what is the best for me, because as I said it before, I wanted to start with some easier modeling but also I want to learn to do more complicated things. So I want to build a very small layout to learn the techniques.

Regards

Tomek

[John Bateson]

To my somewhat time short mind the best solution to get something started is the range from Exactoscale - buy the ready made rail and a couple of the point kits.
4FT 101A P4 FastTrack 18.83mm gauge for BH rail (2 metres) 6.00
4NT A06L P4 turnout kit A6-L (steel BH rail) 25.00
4NT A06R P4 turnout kit A6-R (steel BH rail) 25.00


Have a good look through their web site at http://www.exactoscale.co.uk/4mmtrack.html

Once you have your first engine running on such track then you can start to worry about copper rivets or scale chairs ...
John

[johnWM]

Hi Tomek
You probably have this information anyway, but just in case....
The London Transport panniers were around right at the end of steam, making them prime candidates for being snapped up by the preservation movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_5700_Class
Some great photos on here.
http://gallery62603.fotopic.net/c237292.html
I think 7715 was actually repainted in London Transport colours last year as L99. It was on the Spa Valley Railway in 2010. Not sure where the real thing will be hanging out in 2011, but I am sure someone on here will know.
London Transport museum have published a book on the red panniers.
http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/LTM/Books/Underground/Product/Red-panniers-last-steam-on-the-Underground.html
I think Bachmann did a 5700 pannier in Red as a London Transport museum special.

John

[frizby]

Some photos from the Red Panniers on the publishers website.

http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/bdl060.htm

Andy

[steves17]

I'm semi ready to lay down some track. But thought it best to weather the track before glueing it down. Sleeper grime looks good but as i'm using steel instead of nickel for rail would this be a problem as it is water based? The irony of worrying over the rail rusting while trying to make it seem rusty is not lost on me. Also will i need to cover up the blades on turnouts or is the fact that i will have droppers feeding it not then a problem?
Ta

[John Donnelly]

I sprayed all my track with Tamiya acrylic (Nato Brown) and I've not had any issues with rusting at all. I didn't cover the switch blades at all figuring that the droppers and the binding to the stock rails would feed the power anyway.

John

[beachboy]

Hi,

Acrylic paints dry fast enough to prevent any oxidising. Unless one is applying a very water mixed wash of the paint, where some may slow dry on the underneath of the rail. Also watch for any water thats sitting on your brush ferrule, unnoticed after wetting the brush.
Based on the track plan, my method provides for cleaning the rail, apply droppers & notches, then Halfords red prime all the rail. Which adheres v. well/hard, provides a good base for acrylics colour paint to grip, and protection.

Tamiya acrylic is IPA/ glycol based. Hence why its v. good for airbrushing.

Rgds, Steve.

[Terry Bendall]

then Halfords red prime all the rail.

I guess that a primer will be useful if acrylics are used over the top. I use oil based paints (Humbrol and Railmatch) for the track colour. Usually I have a mix of two ot three "rust" colours on a pallet and mix them as I go along. After it is all dry I spray Railmatch sleeper grime over the rails, sleepers and ballast in varying densities which tones everything down. Probably the same amount of work as applying a primer and then painting with acrylics, but no problem with adhesion of the paint.

Terry Bendall

[beachboy]

Hi Terry,

I would prime any metal as best practice regardless of the paint medium that has to key to it.
I seem to remember, having painted direct to rail in the past, shiny areas appearing at where the rail it sits in the plastic chairs, but that was n/s. Probably through movement in time. Also chiped easier from cleaning. Which all requires touching up.
I would take the board or track pieces outside for any prolonged spirit / enamel based painting.
Oil base paint mixes would add some interesting leaking stains on the track.

Rgds, Steve.

[steves17]

Thanks for the info guys. I should mention I was leaning towards rail match sleeper grime because it comes in spray cans as i don't have an airbrush yet. I will at a later stage when i'm a little more flush and moving on to the next project but for now just wan't to get my first project done ( about 6 metres in length double track) and see how it turns out. NSE Daz on MRWEB shows a post of his O gauge track being done with Sleeper grime ( I presume it is Railmatch but that might be a misnomer ) and it looks quite good. Just involves 3 sprays with two colours and some masking tape. I will probably just wipe the tops of the rail off with a bit of tissue. I though that Railmatch was water based so was a bit worried. I will look into what colours are available in can form, if its not ideal i might have to get an air brush but would rather not have to fiddle around with that aspect of modelling just yet. Cheers

[steves17]

Ah i see it comes in both water and oil form. Two cans will cost me £20 quid plus unless someone out there knows a better supplier? So thought i might be best to look at airbrushes for the long game plan. Amazon has a KMS Airbrush Kit AS186 AS 186 with Compressor with Tank with 2 x Double Action Airbrushes and Hose for £70 bob plus a few more for accessories.It has mostly good reviews. I don't know diddly about air brushing but is this a good buy for train modelling?

[Paul Willis]

Ah i see it comes in both water and oil form. Two cans will cost me £20 quid plus unless someone out there knows a better supplier? So thought i might be best to look at airbrushes for the long game plan. Amazon has a KMS Airbrush Kit AS186 AS 186 with Compressor with Tank with 2 x Double Action Airbrushes and Hose for £70 bob plus a few more for accessories.It has mostly good reviews. I don't know diddly about air brushing but is this a good buy for train modelling?

Hi Steve,

Looking at the kit, and the reviews, it seems like a cheap starter kit at a very competitive price.

It's probably not going to last for ever, but as a cheap try-out you can't really go wrong at that price. Just don't expect to be an Iain Rathbone with that quality of kit.

Alternatively, for a few quid more, there are a couple of cheap deals on Neo kit by Derek at Eileen's Emporium. Even better, he is at plenty of shows, so if you are able to make it along to one, you'll have the opportunity to pick up and handle the different models to see what suits you best.

HTH
Flymo

[Andy W]

I'd go down the Neo route if you can afford it.

[beachboy]

Steve - 17

To paint track - an AB is not necessary. A selection of decent brushes will suffice ( 0 & 00 size ).
You have more control in a confined area, and can pic out detail, then make up washes by diluting your paint for dirt and dust, or colour contrast, etc. But do not mix diluted acrylic & spirit mediums.

Look at the real thing and note the variety of colours. Rail key's dirty wood, and may be a small lighter highlight colour at the top to catch the eye, dirt in trapped areas, variation in sleeper colour from black-brown, silver grey, green decay, inner rail is darker contrast, etc. You would have to come in very close with an AB and a fine needle fitting to achieve that. - Also add a highlight to the chair ribs, etc.
A spray can, or paint pot No. is typical railway flat one colour modelling.

Humbrol produce a variety of base colours to play with. As does a £6.99 artists acrylic paint set, that can be mixed with decent water to various tones.

Come good with the brushes, then move on to an AB. But like any tools - cheap is short term.

Good luck, Steve.

.

[steves17]

Much obliged. Thanks everyone

[paulm]

The only thing that cannot be helped is the waiting time for a set of Ultrascale wheels.

You can, however, get conversion wheelsets from Alan Gibson without any need to wait but the wheelsets do need fitting to the axles and you have to transfer the gear from the original axle. This is a reasonably straightforward job.
The Scalefour News archive is here http://www.scalefour.org/forum/s4-news.php

I think the Bachmann pannier tank has been sold in LT livery in the past and you might find one on eBay. LT used them for works trains in the 1960s.
Regards
Keith

London Transport Museum shop sell the Bachmann pannier tank in London Transport livery if you can't find one on eBay. It will cost £79.99 though but it is finished in lined LT livery which may be difficult if you are repainting a model of a different livery.

The website link is http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/models/sp ... k-l94.html.

Hope this is of help to you.
Regards
Paul

[derekrussan]

Amazon has a KMS Airbrush Kit AS186 AS 186 with Compressor with Tank with 2 x Double Action Airbrushes

I can obtain similar brushes, but have tried them out and will not stock them. I have also seen cheap Chinese copies of the cheap Chinese compressors, so be careful, buy from a reputable source with a worthwhile guarantee.

Flymo[/quote]

Alternatively, for a few quid more, there are a couple of cheap deals on Neo kit by Derek at Eileen's Emporium. Even better, he is at plenty of shows, so if you are able to make it along to one, you'll have the opportunity to pick up and handle the different models to see what suits you best.

HTH
Flymo

To quote from "Weathering Rolling Stock" by Tim Shackelton having discussed the value of decent quality branded Single Action airbrushes at £80 to £100, "The one shining exception is the Neo ..... I think it is a great little airbrush, and its price tag around £50 represents exceptional value for money.

Come along and try it out, we are at plenty of shows all over the country in the next few weeks. Starter kits from £115

Derek

[steves17]

Thanks. I've ordered two sleeper rail match spray cans and some phoenix oil colours to brush on the rail and any additional weathering. They are having a sale on some old/recovered stock on their web page. A number of colours are sold out but it might be worth a quick look. I brought as many colours from the sale that were available to get my collection off to a good start and have a guide for matching colours. I'm planning to go to the Wells scale four exhibition so will supplement my modelling stock there, if the airbrushing tryouts are there i'll have a crack at it. I'm flat broke for the minute so will leave airbrushing to a later date. For now i'm about to lay some closed cell foam with metal end pieces to put down as a track bed, then I will and try make a way of operating my switch blades and eventually lay the track. I finally get how point polarity works since i have made my own turnouts and re-watched the Right track DVD on DCC. A real penny dropping moment. Reading the 2mm scale book on track has also been very useful and I'm going to try the 12BA screw dropper method.While i'm broke i have brought everything i need so should make some nice progress in the next few weeks. Thanks for all the advice. With all the forums resources at disposal i'm at last feeling pretty confident.

[derekrussan]

I'm planning to go to the Wells scale four exhibition so will supplement my modelling stock there, if the airbrushing tryouts are there i'll have a crack at it.

See you there then

Derek