North Sunderland stock

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Winander
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Winander » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:34 pm

Daddyman wrote:So the passenger trains would be running unbraked. But then this seemed to happen quite often with unbraked wagons seen between the loco and the carriages in a number of photos, even in BR days.

Well you did say last night it was all very flat :)
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:49 pm

Winander wrote:
Daddyman wrote:So the passenger trains would be running unbraked. But then this seemed to happen quite often with unbraked wagons seen between the loco and the carriages in a number of photos, even in BR days.

Well you did say last night it was all very flat :)

:D
I did...

andrewphiliphanson
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby andrewphiliphanson » Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:07 pm

Daddyman wrote:
Note also the birdcage carriage seen in the other shots, now grounded in the background of picture 16 - which, come to think of it, means it's North Sunderland (confusingly, the last-but-one station) and not Seahouses. Anyone any idea what that thing on the front of Bamburgh's tank is? I have to tackle it soon. Here it is blown up:
Bamburgh tank front.PNG


It is a displacement lubricator, presumably feeding oil to the cylinders.

Andy

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:21 am

andrewphiliphanson wrote:
Daddyman wrote:
Note also the birdcage carriage seen in the other shots, now grounded in the background of picture 16 - which, come to think of it, means it's North Sunderland (confusingly, the last-but-one station) and not Seahouses. Anyone any idea what that thing on the front of Bamburgh's tank is? I have to tackle it soon. Here it is blown up:
Bamburgh tank front.PNG


It is a displacement lubricator, presumably feeding oil to the cylinders.

Andy

Thanks, Andy. That makes sense. And blowing up one of Jeremy's photos gives me quite a clear view of it.

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:27 pm

Hello. I'm in the last throes of building one of the ex-GER six wheelers that worked on the NSR, and I was just about to put some brake safety loops on when I realised they're not actually visible in any photos of the two real things. I'd assumed that they would be like those on the ex-NER saloon, which are very visible:
20211230_105118 (2).jpg
20211230_105118 (2).jpg (44.51 KiB) Viewed 1948 times


However, there's nothing similarly obvious on either of the ex-GER carriages, even in this shot taken on the same day, a little further up the platform:
08-03-2022_17-11-28.jpg

08-03-2022_17-11-14.jpg

This one also shows nothing:
GE 1.PNG


Views of the second such carriage also show nothing:
GE 2.PNG


What could be going on? There must surely be some sort of safety loops; does anyone have any ideas of what form they might take? Did the GER have a particularly invisible breed of loop?

Thanks for any help!

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:51 am

Just bumping this as for some reason it's disappeared from both "new posts" and "active topics". (New question above.)

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Paul Willis
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:52 am

Daddyman wrote:Just bumping this as for some reason it's disappeared from both "new posts" and "active topics". (New question above.)


Hi David,

Let me have a look and see if I can find any articles in the GERS Journal that may cover these coaches. It will probably be as they were built, and not subsequently modified, but it may be a starting point for you.

I'll come back to you...

Cheers
Paul
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www.5522models.co.uk

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:35 am

Paul Willis wrote:
Daddyman wrote:Just bumping this as for some reason it's disappeared from both "new posts" and "active topics". (New question above.)


Hi David,

Let me have a look and see if I can find any articles in the GERS Journal that may cover these coaches. It will probably be as they were built, and not subsequently modified, but it may be a starting point for you.

I'll come back to you...

Cheers
Paul

Thanks Paul!

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Paul Willis
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:40 pm

Hi David,

Well, I've had a bit of a rummage around, and like your extracted pictures above, I'm not sure that anything is any more clear...

The first challenge that I had was finding some reference. Googling for images of North Sunderland coaches seemed to give lots of pictures of four-wheel coaches, but it was difficult to get clear picture of any six-wheelers.

I then went back to searching the indices and contents of the Great Eastern Society Journals. As the society covers the successors to the GER, then I hoped that there may be something covering LNER or BR(E) usage of the coaches. Sadly, the only references to Sunderland were in football matches against Arsenal, and the so-named B17 and Class 66 locomotives...

Also in a couple of issues of the GEJ are a history by John Watling of GER coaching stock, summarising the development and design. I found that this is also on the GERS website at https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/carriages/introduction. Unfortunately, due to the convoluted way that the GERS holds rights to many images in their collection, the (more helpful) photographs of coaches included in the article have been replaced by line weight diagrams. The articles themselves also focus on the design "above solebar" and make virtually no mention of the underpinnings.

I do have the copies of the print magazines that this article is in, with the original pictures. Even given the exceptionally clear definition on some of the pictures, I still can't find a clear picture showing any safety loops. I don't have any construction diagrams of GER coaches - it's not really my interest, which is more on the goods stock - either, so I'm afraid that I don't have that as a way forward.

So in conclusion, in the absence of any positive confirmation of visible safety loops, I think that you would be on safe ground leaving them off. Until that elusive photo showing them turns up!

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:48 am

Paul Willis wrote:Hi David,

Well, I've had a bit of a rummage around, and like your extracted pictures above, I'm not sure that anything is any more clear...

The first challenge that I had was finding some reference. Googling for images of North Sunderland coaches seemed to give lots of pictures of four-wheel coaches, but it was difficult to get clear picture of any six-wheelers.

I then went back to searching the indices and contents of the Great Eastern Society Journals. As the society covers the successors to the GER, then I hoped that there may be something covering LNER or BR(E) usage of the coaches. Sadly, the only references to Sunderland were in football matches against Arsenal, and the so-named B17 and Class 66 locomotives...

Also in a couple of issues of the GEJ are a history by John Watling of GER coaching stock, summarising the development and design. I found that this is also on the GERS website at https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/carriages/introduction. Unfortunately, due to the convoluted way that the GERS holds rights to many images in their collection, the (more helpful) photographs of coaches included in the article have been replaced by line weight diagrams. The articles themselves also focus on the design "above solebar" and make virtually no mention of the underpinnings.

I do have the copies of the print magazines that this article is in, with the original pictures. Even given the exceptionally clear definition on some of the pictures, I still can't find a clear picture showing any safety loops. I don't have any construction diagrams of GER coaches - it's not really my interest, which is more on the goods stock - either, so I'm afraid that I don't have that as a way forward.

So in conclusion, in the absence of any positive confirmation of visible safety loops, I think that you would be on safe ground leaving them off. Until that elusive photo showing them turns up!

Cheers
Paul

That's certainly a lot of hard work you've put in there, Paul - thank you very much. It's very kind of you and much appreciated.

You can get a good low-level view of one of the ex-GER carriages on the NSR (not the one I'm initially modelling as it was withdrawn before the line closed after a shunting mishap) on the Transport Library website (from where one of my crops was taken); however, the search function on that site is not very good, so anyone interested would be better googling "ns208807 transport library".

Thank you again, Paul!

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Noel
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Noel » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:26 am

I have recently, if I remember correctly, come across a comment about Midland 4- and 6-wheel carriages, which may explain this. Available pictures on the internet show no visible safety loops, which is because there are vertical connections attached to the cross shafts between the brake shoes, further inboard than the more usual safety loops. Possible the GER used a similar system? Please don't ask where I came across this comment, I haven't a clue...
Regards
Noel

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Winander
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Winander » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:51 am

Daddyman wrote:however, the search function on that site is not very good, so anyone interested would be better googling "ns208807 transport library".


Many sites have a poor search function, for instance this forum!

In such cases I use Google to search by prefixing the search terms with "site:" plus the url e.g.

Code: Select all

site:thetransportlibrary.co.uk ns208807

You can use all the google search syntax in the search terms. It gives the same result that David's does but is more focussed as it only searches the site you specifiy.
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:04 am

Thanks Noel and Richard!

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby bécasse » Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:01 pm

Noel wrote:I have recently, if I remember correctly, come across a comment about Midland 4- and 6-wheel carriages, which may explain this. Available pictures on the internet show no visible safety loops, which is because there are vertical connections attached to the cross shafts between the brake shoes, further inboard than the more usual safety loops. Possible the GER used a similar system? Please don't ask where I came across this comment, I haven't a clue...


I am fairly certain that I have come across 4/6-wheel carriages where chains were used to provide the back-up safety function in the event of linkages breaking. However, like Noel, I can't now remember details but I do wonder whether that might have been the situation here, the chains would have been suspended from a chassis member and attached to a "bracelet" round the relevant shaft and, obviously, both sides of the vehicle.

andrewphiliphanson
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby andrewphiliphanson » Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:25 am

David,

Is this photograph of any use?

92166044_10158517449280312_7629329361992155136_o.jpg


Unfortunately I neglected to make a note of the source when I saved it onto my computer a few years ago. If anyone recognises it or claims copyright then I would of course be happy to credit it or remove it as required.

What appear to be the brake safety loops are visible at the nearest end of the carriage.

Andy

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:43 am

That's a superb photo, thank you, Andy - one I've never seen before. It appears to be taken on the same day as some of the ones I've shown crops of, so my guess would be CJB Sanderson.

Regarding the safety loops, I think I'm seeing the same type as the ex-NER saloon shown in the crop a few posts back - but perhaps further in towards the centre of the vehicle. Is that others' impression?

essdee
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby essdee » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:25 am

Hi David,
Jenkinson and Essery's 'Midland Carriages: An Illustrated Review', page 23, has a diagram for a Bain bogie carriage, showing'3' 4" centres of safety loops', as one example?
Cheers,
Steve

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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:04 am

andrewphiliphanson wrote:David,
What appear to be the brake safety loops are visible at the nearest end of the carriage.
Andy

Clearly you have mastered the art of seeing in the dark. However, I persuaded Gimp to shine some light under there and there does indeed seem to be something. :)
92166044_10158517449280312_7629329361992155136_o.png
92166044_10158517449280312_7629329361992155136_o.png (202.2 KiB) Viewed 1241 times
Regards
Keith
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Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:16 pm

essdee wrote:Hi David,
Jenkinson and Essery's 'Midland Carriages: An Illustrated Review', page 23, has a diagram for a Bain bogie carriage, showing'3' 4" centres of safety loops', as one example?
Cheers,
Steve

Thanks Steve - I'll probably go with that or a skeg-of-the-eye job.

grovenor-2685 wrote: However, I persuaded Gimp to shine some light under there and there does indeed seem to be something. :)

I persuaded Irfan View to do the same. But it's a very faint "something"....

Daddyman
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Re: North Sunderland stock

Postby Daddyman » Wed May 11, 2022 8:02 am

Apologies to the virtual and OWBAG groups (and indeed members of the NERA), who've already seen these...
20220324_141032 MoTo.jpg


20220324_141050 MoTo.jpg


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