NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
Peter_E

NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby Peter_E » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:48 am

Having started early plans for a somewhat bold P4 layout a few years ago as a somewhat overenthusiastic teenager, and then going off and doing various models / layouts based off Australian prototype in HO and EM gauges (EM to represent 5'3" broad gauge in HO), a brief bit of N scale, and a couple of experiments in other scales/gauges, I've once again returned to P4 as a partial house move means that new space is somewhat limited, and the majority of my Australian stock isn't well suited to small layouts. The Society was joined, and orders for gauges from DCC Concepts, track parts from C&L along with some from the Society with a couple of wheelsets to convert a couple of left-over OO scale goods wagons, utilising some Bill Bedford sprung W iron etches I've had for some time. As I wait for these to make the journey from the UK over to me in Australia, I thought I'd start a write-up of the project for anyone interested.

Having sold off the majority of my OO scale stock, being left with only a couple of coaches, wagons, and an Ultrascale rewheeled P4 Heljan Class 26, I decided that I may as well start from scratch, whilst retaining the Class 26 for testing purposes. Having had a long time affinity for Scotland, my family having originally come from there a couple of generations back, and having had an on-off interest in specifically the North British Railway, but also the Caledonian, the region was easy to choose. The lovely range of NBR locomotive kits from 52F Models made the decision on which of the two to go with very easy, even more so from the fact that they're designed for P4. Era set around 1912-1915, as this enables me to have the M class, and one or two Ls, which are my personal favourite of the NBR locomotive designs.

A track plan was somewhat more of a difficult decision to come to. Having built pointwork across several gauges (to-date 9mm 009; 12mm HOn3.5; HO 16.5, EM; and a lockdown project of an O scale turnout) I decided that I would go with something a little more interesting/complex than a basic shunting puzzle layout - the fact that I have a specific interest in coaching stock meant that I started looking specifically at passenger stations. After some time trawling through the NLS Ordnance Survey maps of both Glasgow and Edinburgh I concluded that there weren't any stations that really suited what I wanted, either being a plain twin-platform through station with no pointwork, or one with a larger yard than I will have the space for. As a result I ended up looking at Minories, having drawn up a few Minories-esque plans over the years, for HO, OO/P4 and O scales. The aim was to keep the scenic section within 2.4m, which has been done successfully.
The initial plan was to utilise B8 turnouts, as some time ago having done research into NBR style interlaced turnouts I'd done a Templot plan for them in B8, unfortunately it transpired that this would reduce my platform length significantly, and I would like to be able to run short but not extremely short trains. As such, I've compromised with B7s. To further reduce length, the station end of the trailing crossover at the exit of the station has been turned into a single compound/slip, which has the added effect of giving myself a bit more of a challenge with track building, having not done a compound/slip before. The baseboard join is shown with the black line. Track panels are 11 sleeper, 30' rail, with sleepers shoved based off data I found for NER plain trackwork, which I doubt is accurate for the NBR but the wider sleeper spacing matches up with that of the turnouts better.
NBR Minoriesesque.PNG


I'm undecided as to whether to make the layout 450mm (1'6"), or 600mm (2') wide, though strongly leaning towards 600mm to include a streetscape scene behind the station. Baseboards will be, as per all the layouts I've previously built, utilise 1/8" cork on 9mm MDF, painted to seal the MDF, with 89x19mm Pine framework and 70x35mm Pine legs, at a baseboard height of 1159mm (1150mm legs plus 9mm MDF). The exit to the fiddle yard, which will be a 1200mm board with either cassettes or a traverser, undecided as yet, will be hidden by a road/tram overbridge, and I've placed an order for a Glasgow Corporation Standard Phase 1 tram to sit on the overbridge, hopefully something else to make it recogniseable as being set in Glasgow.

Stock-wise I've placed an 'order' for a 52F Models NBR M class (later LNER C15) kit, though it's subject to a wait time for etches and gears due to COVID-19. I'm very much looking forward to it arriving and building it when the parts are available. Coaches will most likely be built or designed myself, whether I do this via traditional scratchbuilding methods of plasticard/brass, by designing my own etchings (which I've done for HO scale parts before), or 3D printing (having done a significant amount of this for HO) is currently up in the air, though I suspect that I'll go with a combination of etched and 3D printed components, similar to my latest HO scale carriage design, which utilises a combination of (yet to be etched) etched sides, ends and footboards, along with a 3D printed roof, carriage-side louvre holsters, and chassis frame, with cast bogies. What little goods stock will be needed will likely be built from a couple of kits available from Wizard Models, possibly with a couple of 3D printed additions for variety.

Once Melbourne is out of lockdown and I can work again I intend to place an order for some books on NBR locos, coaches and wagons from the NBRSG to assist in designing and building the stock, and buy the required baseboard materials, after which it'll be a case of waiting for my C&L and Society orders to arrive to commence trackwork.

Peter
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Terry Bendall
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Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:39 am

looks like a nice idea.

Peter_E wrote: Baseboards will be, as per all the layouts I've previously built, utilise 1/8" cork on 9mm MDF, painted to seal the MDF, with 89x19mm Pine framework and 70x35mm Pine legs,


I personally would never use MDF for a baseboard top and there have been instances from other people who have had problems when using this material600mm wide. Either 9mm birch plywood, or if the boards are 600mm wide, 12 mm thick. The boards on Elcot Road are12mm thick ply with no intermediate supports or cross bracing and we have just about managed, but on reflection I would put in additional supports on a board this wide.

Terry Bendall

Peter_E

Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby Peter_E » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:08 am

Terry Bendall wrote:looks like a nice idea.

Peter_E wrote: Baseboards will be, as per all the layouts I've previously built, utilise 1/8" cork on 9mm MDF, painted to seal the MDF, with 89x19mm Pine framework and 70x35mm Pine legs,


I personally would never use MDF for a baseboard top and there have been instances from other people who have had problems when using this material600mm wide. Either 9mm birch plywood, or if the boards are 600mm wide, 12 mm thick. The boards on Elcot Road are12mm thick ply with no intermediate supports or cross bracing and we have just about managed, but on reflection I would put in additional supports on a board this wide.

Terry Bendall


Hi Terry,

Yes, I've found similar in the past; having at one point had a layout made up of 3 baseboards each 1800x600mm MDF, albeit with no cross bracing. With hindsight definitely a mistake, as once scenery got piled on one could notice the sag in the middle when looking directly down the track. Not so much of an issue in HO using R-T-L track, though would be rather concerning with handlaid track of any gauge. I intend to put cross bracing either at the 600mm mark, or at the 400mm and 800mm centrelines, either of which conveniently should avoid the switch (and thus point motor) locations on the baseboard with the turnouts, which will hopefully help stop sag.
Unfortunately, having looked in the past, good quality plywood doesn't seem to be shop available here - reviews for plywood on the Bunnings website (the main hardware store in Aus) are concerning to say the least, the best suggesting there's a QC issue, the worst suggesting it's unusable. Considering that concern, and that a 1220x600x9mm sheet comes out at $32AUD (Approx. £17.10), which is over double the cost of the same size MDF at $15.50 (£8.30) per sheet for 1200x600x9mm. There is a specialist ply stockist with an online shop and apparently a store in Melbourne, though minimum size is 2440x1220mm, which is a) currently out of stock, and b) a solid $137 (£73.37), of which over 1/4 would go unused. I also have a $100AUD voucher for Bunnings left over from my birthday before last, which helps the idea of getting everything from Bunnings.
I did consider 12mm MDF, though having used it in the past my main concern there is the weight, though that may well no longer be an issue as I would've been about 13 at the time, some 7 odd years later I'd very much hope that I was stronger! Additionally, it's only $2AUD (£1.07) more than the 9mm so it's certainly not going to break the bank if I do utilise it.

Peter

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Tim V
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Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby Tim V » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:41 am

Unfortunately, with plywood you get what you pay for. I am lucky, there is a boat plywood supplier local to me. I would not baulk at the extra cost of decent ply - the baseboard is the fundamental of the layout, get it wrong and regret.

MDF is not suitable for layout construction - heavy, liable to warp. Fit only for the bin!

Have you considered building a board with the layout removable from the top? Build once and reuse for several layouts?
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

DougN
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Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby DougN » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:44 am

Peter, I am assuming you are in Australia from the AUD comment. it is worth noting Aussie MDF is a lot higher density than the UK equivalent. I have used it on my OO layout (12mm) with support every 300 which works very well. One thing I now do is paint it before use as it stops any furry bits and protects it form spills of liquid.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Peter_E

Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby Peter_E » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:55 am

DougN wrote:Peter, I am assuming you are in Australia from the AUD comment. it is worth noting Aussie MDF is a lot higher density than the UK equivalent. I have used it on my OO layout (12mm) with support every 300 which works very well. One thing I now do is paint it before use as it stops any furry bits and protects it form spills of liquid.
Tim V wrote:Unfortunately, with plywood you get what you pay for. I am lucky, there is a boat plywood supplier local to me. I would not baulk at the extra cost of decent ply - the baseboard is the fundamental of the layout, get it wrong and regret.

MDF is not suitable for layout construction - heavy, liable to warp. Fit only for the bin!

Have you considered building a board with the layout removable from the top? Build once and reuse for several layouts?


I haven't considered that no, I must admit I can't quite picture how such an arrangement would work. Reusing the legs yes, but I had always thought that keeping the framework properly connected to the baseboard integral to ensuring stability.

DougN wrote:Peter, I am assuming you are in Australia from the AUD comment. it is worth noting Aussie MDF is a lot higher density than the UK equivalent. I have used it on my OO layout (12mm) with support every 300 which works very well. One thing I now do is paint it before use as it stops any furry bits and protects it form spills of liquid.


I am, between Melbourne and Warrnambool in Victoria currently, university and work in Melbourne and in Warrnambool when I have time off both; the partial move to Warrnambool being hence the new layout. Since my early layout building days I've always sealed the MDF before putting things on top, as I've found particularly once the scenery stage is reached and liquids are being sloshed around if the MDF has any cuts or gashes etc from cutting track or other bits and pieces on it it can lead to the MDF absorbing it and having an adverse reaction. Not so much of an issue as more recently my layouts have had the entire baseboard covered with a layer of cork, whereas previously I either had no roadbed or roadbed directly under the tracks only, but still a good practice to keep. Looking at the point locations bracing approximately every 300mm (+/-20mm) is possible, so I may go with that and the 12mm MDF, thank you for the suggestion.

Peter

John Palmer
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Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby John Palmer » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:16 pm

In case it helps, I'm attaching a copy of a Templot library file containing a 1:10 sleepered lead with 12' switch (loose heel) developed to reflect North British practice and derived from measurements of a North British turnout that used to grace the goods yard at Rannoch. I think it is fairly accurate, but only wish I'd known enough about permanent way practice when taking the measurements to get a dimension for the heel offset, which significantly affects the geometry. This pattern of switch seems to have seen very widespread use on NB lines, so when combined with different crossing angles would cover most turnouts required for a NB layout and gets you away from the REA classifications more appropriate for later practice.

Look forward to seeing more of this North British layout.
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Tim V
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Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby Tim V » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:19 pm

Peter_E wrote:I haven't considered that no, I must admit I can't quite picture how such an arrangement would work. Reusing the legs yes, but I had always thought that keeping the framework properly connected to the baseboard integral to ensuring stability.
Peter

Quite easy really. Construct boards in your favourite fashion, then a piece of thin plywood (e.g. 4mm) over the top. Don't screw it down, use nuts and bolts accessible from underneath to hold down the cover. Build layout on this, then when you want a new layout, unbolt the old layout and discard!
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

Peter_E

Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby Peter_E » Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:22 pm

John Palmer wrote:In case it helps, I'm attaching a copy of a Templot library file containing a 1:10 sleepered lead with 12' switch (loose heel) developed to reflect North British practice and derived from measurements of a North British turnout that used to grace the goods yard at Rannoch. I think it is fairly accurate, but only wish I'd known enough about permanent way practice when taking the measurements to get a dimension for the heel offset, which significantly affects the geometry. This pattern of switch seems to have seen very widespread use on NB lines, so when combined with different crossing angles would cover most turnouts required for a NB layout and gets you away from the REA classifications more appropriate for later practice.

Look forward to seeing more of this North British layout.


That's really helpful, thank you! The 1:10 is a bit long for this, though hopefully at some point in the future I'll have a bit more space to do a prototype station, in the event of which it'll come in very helpful. The 1:7 on the other hand is perfect for this, I have to say it's rather neater than my bodged attempts at a 1:7 (my closer but still not-quite-right one being a B8, though I've since done a 1:8 with 16' switch which is rather longer), so I've replaced the B7s in the plan with the 12' switch 1:7, as seen below.
NBR Minories Throat.PNG


Tim V wrote:
Peter_E wrote:I haven't considered that no, I must admit I can't quite picture how such an arrangement would work. Reusing the legs yes, but I had always thought that keeping the framework properly connected to the baseboard integral to ensuring stability.
Peter

Quite easy really. Construct boards in your favourite fashion, then a piece of thin plywood (e.g. 4mm) over the top. Don't screw it down, use nuts and bolts accessible from underneath to hold down the cover. Build layout on this, then when you want a new layout, unbolt the old layout and discard!


A rather interesting concept. I imagine it would work better with layouts where wiring and turnout control is done from above the layout, to avoid ending up with a lot of holes in the substructure, and the potential problem of turnout motors needing to be in a position where there's a cross brace. Certainly something I'll keep in mind for future, though I think at least for this I'll stick with my standard method. The primary reason for this being for simplicity sake, and another being that over the past couple of years I've built up a small team of operators who are now used to assembling and disassembling layouts to my usual spec at exhibitions and at home, the ability for them to do so has saved some time in the past where at exhibitions things inevitably get left behind and I've needed to rush back to get them!

Peter
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DougN
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Re: NBR Minories-esque, a first layout in P4

Postby DougN » Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:00 am

If your around Melbourne we do actually have a group which meets regularly. (though not at the moment due to the latest Covid out break) keep in touch with myself and David Clift of this parish for dates if you are interested in joining us at any time.

Good luck with the new layout. Bunnings will be your friend for the materials one thing to look out for is the closed cell foam roll which is self adhesive
https://www.bunnings.com.au/moroday-100 ... l_p4000007
I am trying this as a underlay.
They also have sheets of Extruded polystrene (XPS) which is good for landscaping level changes.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/bastion-120 ... d_p0139535

regards

Doug
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling


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