Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
mkfuzzhead
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:58 pm

Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby mkfuzzhead » Wed May 05, 2021 4:12 pm

Has anyone tackled the conversion of the Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P to P4?

I ask as I picked up one recently in the hope of a simplistic conversion only to be thwarted by the fact that the cylinder block and 'Motion Bracket' moulding are damaged (known at the time of purchase). Damaged to the point that this renders the loco inoperative. Unfortunately spares are not available for the cylinder blocks and the Valve Gear assembly is scarce.

That has led to to consider if there are sensible alternatives........ using the COMET etchings perhaps.

However being new to chassis conversion, but up for a challenge, I'd welcome an understanding of others experience and advice as to whether such a match might work.

Steve

Philip Hall
Posts: 1632
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby Philip Hall » Wed May 05, 2021 6:19 pm

I converted one of these a long time ago now, I think shortly after it came out. I've attached a couple of photos. The weathering is a bit more strident in the photos than it appeared in real life.

It was quite straightforward, although you will see from the gap between the motion bracket and the footplate that I had some issues with the fragility of the components. The motion bracket you see ended up in several pieces held together (successfully) with pins and superglue. I remember widening the frames and leading and trailing trucks, widening the brake gear and adding a little detail (screw couplings that swivelled!) but not much. I did also slim down the coupling rods and bosses. It ran quite beautifully and quietly. There was some discussion in the letters pages of MRJ about whether the bunker was quite right; no less a LMS man than the late Geoff Holt was happy with it but he was also on the end of some flak about it. I was happy that Geoff was happy. And also that another Holt, Dave of this parish, liked it as well.

At the time, it all ended up OK so I didn't consider whether replacement of the various parts might be an idea. Maybe if it had fallen apart for a final time (there were moments) I could have looked at Comet parts. I can't see why that wouldn't work, not least because there was bags of room between the back of the crossheads and the wheels. I thickened up the connecting rods and remounted them in line with the crossheads to make it look better and to gain room but from the clearance perspective I needn't have bothered.

Sadly, its owner has recently passed away, so the actual engine could be for sale later in the year. If you or anyone else might be interested, send me a PM.

Philip



2010 04 12_3072.JPG
Attachments
2010 04 12_3082 copy dtop sharp.jpg

mkfuzzhead
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:58 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby mkfuzzhead » Thu May 06, 2021 4:47 pm

Philip,

Thank you. Most informative.

The Motion Brackets appear to be notoriously fragile and clear prone to damage irrespective of care when handling.

Fabricating a pair from suitably thick brass may be an approach however the lack of a suitable 'template' original part is a stumbling block although not insurmountable.

I was hoping for a simple wheel swap but things are never straightforward; all part of the fun.

Terry
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:56 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby Terry » Thu May 06, 2021 7:00 pm

That is a very nice looking Stanier 4P. I especially like the weathered finish.

Terry

LMS10640
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:29 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby LMS10640 » Sat May 08, 2021 1:38 pm

Steve,

For what it's worth, I have a Stanier 2-6-4T conversion slowly making its way. It came to me with incomplete valve gear, but converted to P4 by means of a wheel swap and washers. Having used most of the remaining valve gear parts to repair a friend's 00 model, the rest formed the basis of a conversion using an old (pre- Geoff Brewin) Comet frame etch screwed with brass packing to the existing chassis block, retaining the existing motor and gears. Brake gear includes some Kemilway parts and currently I'm doing the sanding gear. Comet cylinders are a vast improvement on the undersized Hornby offering, but took a lot of work to get them properly centred on the steam pipes. The project started to suffer mission creep at this point.

With hindsight, a straight Comet conversion would have been a better approach, but Philip Hall's post shows what can be achieved with a wheel swap. The motion brackets are hopelessly weak however and from two locos, I ended up with two which were serviceable... both for the same side. The replacement for the other was cut from brass strip with a further piece of 1mm soldered to the outer face. The undimensioned piece fits in the pocket on the chassis block side.

The coupling rods use the same pressings as those used on the Fowler 2-6-4T and these are fluted. For the Stanier loco, mount the rods back to front on the crankpins otherwise the rivet joining the two parts of the rod will foul on the driving wheel boss. Pickups are also over long and easily displaced.

Hope that this helps,

David[img]
2-6-4T%20motion%20brackets.pdf
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Attachments
2-6-4T motion brackets.pdf
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mkfuzzhead
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:58 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby mkfuzzhead » Sat May 08, 2021 2:40 pm

David,

Wow. Thanks. The 'Conversion' challenges you've faced are most informative especially when considered alongside those in Philips earlier post.

I'm now of the opinion that the way to go is to:

A. Initially fabricate the Motion Brackets and see if I can achieve a sensible fit (the diagram save a lot of searching; thank you).
B. Cylinder option will, in the first instance, be to hopefully source a replacement, fingers crossed, or if all else fails use COMET.
C. Alan Gibson wheelsets for re-wheeling.

Frame widening is worthy of consideration although when taken with the above I do wonder about the COMET Chassis option.... I wonder what the kit to Hornby Body fit is like i.e. minimal butchery.

Philip Hall
Posts: 1632
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby Philip Hall » Sat May 08, 2021 4:22 pm

Not being a LMS man I had not realised the cylinders were undersized. Neither did anyone else until now!

Philip

LMS10640
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:29 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby LMS10640 » Sat May 08, 2021 8:37 pm

Philip,

It's the steam chests that are underfed, but yours does look right. Maybe it's the overall finish of the loco that does it. I just measured the Hornby block which is not far off otherwise and maybe I'm the victim of a bit of optical illusion.

It was seeing photos of your loco somewhere on the Society website that prompted my effort btw, so thanks for that.

David

Philip Hall
Posts: 1632
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Hornby Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T Class 4P Conversion to P4

Postby Philip Hall » Sat May 08, 2021 11:16 pm

David,

That’s a long time ago! Glad it helped you, for it was one of my earlier jobs. The rear end view got published in MRJ and I remember something went wrong and the ends of the picture were cut off. Then Geoff Holt mentioned it in the letters page and someone said he was wrong about the shape of the bunker on his model (which was about the same as the Hornby one) and so some acrimonious correspondence ensued. But I was always quite chuffed (and so was the engine’s new owner) that Geoff Holt and Dave Holt approved. I was just lucky Hornby got it about right. Anything north of Watford I’m all at sea.

Actually Hornby and Bachmann have a history of getting odd things wrong. I think the front buffer beam on the 4P was underfed and I vaguely recall doing something about it. Bachmann’s Dukedog has the front buffers in the right place but the buffer beam itself is too shallow. Hornby’s 28xx has odd looking cylinders, the Grange cylinders are too small, and various Hornby front buffer beams are too shallow and the buffers too high off the ground, like the Britannia and Clan, which I’m doing at the moment. Not always, though, and I always think it’s a legacy of the old Triang requirement that an engine should be able to go from level track to 1:20 at a rail joint. But they don’t do it on all engines!

Philip


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