Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:11 pm

Back to your previous post Tim I seem to recall this is the second time such a "call" has been made during the the time your thread has been going! And that Railtrack at the time of its maximum 'irrational exuberance' before Hatfield made just such a call. You'll be in a good place to offer architectural contractorship for a rebuilt Monsaldale station! What your partnership's collective imaginition would do for an old station would be of great interest.

Two or three such far from irrationally exuberant reopenings have occurred up here in Scotland. The cycleways which the track had become are not extinguished. They continue to exist alongside or near the track. Near the present terminus of the very welcome reopened Waverley line at Tweedbank the railway crosses the Tweed on a tall viaduct. Being now single track the cycle path is where the other track once was with a tall fence between. How tunnels might be treated would be a question, and where double track restored, too. Whether this reopening would be a rational scheme is another matter...

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:22 pm

Hi Julian,

It would be great to see 12" :1' running through the peak again as it is such a beautiful route ... particularly if there were a way of running a heritage element in tandem ... but whilst keeping my fingers crossed I shall not be holding my breath - it will be one hell of an undertaking and alongside money there would be a myriad of complications to iron out.

But one can still hope :thumb
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:31 pm

Right .... back to the 1F ;)

Following all the experimentation and advice given ... and also because Dave Franks' new universal inside cylinder coupling rods are now available, I decided to unsolder everything ... clean up and start again. I want to set the hornblocks accurately from the new coupling rods :D

Another reason for starting over was that although the original etch for the coupling rods by my calcs was not accurate to the correct wheel base .... on inspection neither was the brake rigging which was throwing out the brake positions in relation to the wheels ... and I don't want to scratch build all the rigging.... so I have gone back to the original spacing - its pretty close.

As an aside, I also found that either my calculations on the correct spacing were out, or the pre-drilled holes in the Gibson Frames for the brake hangers were also incorrect .... and furthermore they did seem to match the original etch spacing quite closely :? So perhaps I made a cock up all along :D

Anyway .... I have spent the last few evenings building my version of Allan's Chassis Jig from his starters thread and am now ready to put the frames together again using this new toy. ;)
Chassis Jig - 3.jpg
Tim Lee

Julian Roberts
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:08 am

It's such a luxury making a loco from a good kit where everything fits together! I cut my teeth on locos where I had to get Gibson frames and did a bit of bodging for the brakes. Whether the holes weren't in precisely the right place or it was my ineptitude it didn't matter much really, they aren't exactly the focus of attention! The great thing about the Gibson frames is the huge range of prototypes, ready availability, and nice chunky thickness and quality of the brass, I think.

I haven't followed all the twists and turns of the 1F saga. It would be slightly easier to go back over it if you had a separate thread for it possibly? Anyway power to your elbow Tim. I must confess I haven't even got a chassis jig. Too tight/poor to buy one and too low boredom threshold to make one! When I'm fully retired and a full time modeller perhaps! But your version of Allan's jig looks good. Interested if you show it to us in use.

petermeyer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby petermeyer » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:15 am

This may be P4 heresy but, as the axles are supposed to move up and down with the horn block guides, the wheelbase is a moveable feast.

For the same reason the brake shoes can't be too tight against the wheel.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:50 am

petermeyer wrote:This may be P4 heresy but, as the axles are supposed to move up and down with the horn block guides, the wheelbase is a moveable feast.

For the same reason the brake shoes can't be too tight against the wheel.


The problem I had was that the centres of the brake rigging were different to the revised wheelbase I set up via the coupling rods. This meant that it was noticeable that the brakes were vertical on the centre wheel but sloping back and forwards respectively on the front and back wheels ... not a great look really. :?
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:04 am

Julian Roberts wrote:It's such a luxury making a loco from a good kit where everything fits together! I cut my teeth on locos where I had to get Gibson frames and did a bit of bodging for the brakes. Whether the holes weren't in precisely the right place or it was my ineptitude it didn't matter much really, they aren't exactly the focus of attention!


That's pretty much what I did on my Barney until I discovered the Perseverance chassis kit for the Drummond 700 class which matched :thumb

Julian Roberts wrote:I must confess I haven't even got a chassis jig. Too tight/poor to buy one and too low boredom threshold to make one! When I'm fully retired and a full time modeller perhaps!


The price of the bought ones was a step too far for me as well. I just reasoned that Allan has built a lot more locos than me and his skill set is likely to be a few tiers higher than my own and he obviously finds the jig of use ;) .... so I thought I would give it a go.

Julian Roberts wrote:But your version of Allan's jig looks good. Interested if you show it to us in use.


You can see from the photo I have the frames clipped to the sides ... so they are vertical and the width is correct. I have set the ends using the scribed lines to ensure they are square. I then simply soldered the spacers in place. I have set one of the horn guides central and vertical in the central cutout. I then used a length of 1/8th silver steel rod to position the opposing horn block and guide. The jig allowed me to square this using an engineers square clipped tight to the angles and with the rod clipped to the opposing angle of the square. This has hopefully ensured that the opposing horn block and guide is true and square across the chassis. I was also able to clip the guide in place against the angle and adjust to ensure it was vertical within the cut out before soldering in place. So from my perspective the jig has so far allowed me to set things up to my satisfaction much more positively and without needing three hands ... or actually to hold anything ... prior to soldering - the downside is that I only have myself to blame if it is wrong :? .
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:17 pm

Here with the jig set up with the square setting the opposite horn-block and guide .... mocked up to show how I used it. :thumb

Chassis Jig with square - 1.jpg
Tim Lee

Julian Roberts
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:16 am

Thanks Tim. Interested to see that continuing process as you go.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:07 am

pardon the digression from the 1f build .... I am curious to canvas peoples opinion of closed cell rigid insulation as a track base? This starts from the assumption that using protocab the track will not need to be powered, and also based upon my surface operated point rodding and signal wire experiments ... so access to the underside of the track bed will not be a major requirement.

Thoughts off the top .....It is very strong made to take high compressive forces under building ground-slabs (it needs to take the point loadings of heavy goods vehicles). It is extremely light and easily workable. If used in 100mm (4") thickness it is very rigid and will not deform or sag. It is inert and not subject as far as I know to expansion or contraction or other movement. It is impermeable to water. You could bond cork or any other track base directly to it using a suitable adhesive.

Are there serious reasons why this would not be advisable? ... or might it be worth an experiment? Just a thought as it would mean that the whole scenic profile could then be modelled monolithically in the same material and it would be very lightweight.
Tim Lee

Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:28 am

Tim, that's an interesting idea, so long as the stuff is completely rigid and will not compress or dent. If it were to be as solid as timber then perhaps it would be OK. But for underlay, perhaps, I'm not so sure.

I had originally thought that foam underlay was a good idea, but am now pretty convinced that 3mm or thicker cork is much more stable and flat. I may be unusual in that many of my engines are going to be rigid RTR conversions, and they have all performed impeccably on the Epsom Club's 'Wadhurst', where that track is very firmly glued to cork. A foam base has the tendency to have undulations in its surface, not when first stuck down but later. I think Pendon has found this in places when using code 75 rail.

I recently visited a very fine 00 layout where the builder had used (on Guy Williams' recommendation, no less, based on Pendon experience) a rubber track base, and had found no problems at all. Indeed, the running I saw was quite impeccable. But, here's the thing, the rail used was code 90 bullhead, because that was all you could get when the layout was started, and that rail is far stiffer.

I actually like quiet running, and so I will probably not glue the track down firmly but pin it gently down in places, making sure it is well supported before ballasting and (maybe) removing the pins. I do think that with our fine flanges (turning burrs as they were once described to me!) we need to pay much more attention to level than we might with the deeper flanges of EM or 00.



Philip

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:56 am

Philip Hall wrote:Tim, that's an interesting idea, so long as the stuff is completely rigid and will not compress or dent. If it were to be as solid as timber then perhaps it would be OK. But for underlay, perhaps, I'm not so sure.

I had originally thought that foam underlay was a good idea, but am now pretty convinced that 3mm or thicker cork is much more stable and flat.


Hi Philip,

I was thinking of using cork as the underlay but perhaps bonding this to 4" Celotex (or similar) rather than the usual 9mm plywood. I thought it might be an interesting option to experiment with given its inherent stability and extreme lightness. It can dent locally if subject to impact, but you can fill it ... it was Neil's recent posting on Dorset 1937 that made me think of it...

viewtopic.php?p=70803#p70803

though of course his track bed is ply.
Tim Lee

Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm

Tim, I think Gordon Gravett has done something similar on Arun Quay. Although that’s O gauge of course. I suspect you will be OK so long as it’s absolutely flat.

A thicker underlay had crossed my mind, but the cost of thicker cork put me off a bit. But it is a lot more stable than foam. I’m putting all the wiring on top of the boards, sometimes in channels in the underlay, so the thicker it is, the more there is to cut out.

As this is the ‘last great project’ old, proven ideas tend to appeal. I really don’t want to have to rebuild anything, so am determined it needs to be right. Walter Ward-Platt’s article (Scalefour News) spoke of firm boards and firm track and has guided my approach so far.

Philip

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Flymo748
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:35 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:pardon the digression from the 1f build .... I am curious to canvas peoples opinion of closed cell rigid insulation as a track base? This starts from the assumption that using protocab the track will not need to be powered, and also based upon my surface operated point rodding and signal wire experiments ... so access to the underside of the track bed will not be a major requirement.

Thoughts off the top .....It is very strong made to take high compressive forces under building ground-slabs (it needs to take the point loadings of heavy goods vehicles). It is extremely light and easily workable. If used in 100mm (4") thickness it is very rigid and will not deform or sag. It is inert and not subject as far as I know to expansion or contraction or other movement. It is impermeable to water. You could bond cork or any other track base directly to it using a suitable adhesive.

Are there serious reasons why this would not be advisable? ... or might it be worth an experiment? Just a thought as it would mean that the whole scenic profile could then be modelled monolithically in the same material and it would be very lightweight.


Gordon Gravett, MRJ 235, p.301.

In short, yes, you just need to protect the edges. I bought a few slabs from Wickes of the 100mm stuff to experiment with.

Cheers
Flymo
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