Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:02 pm

I am currently contemplating the purchase of a Lathe .... I was wondering what peoples thoughts might be regarding the usefulness of a Vertical slide?

I don't possess a pillar drill or a milling machine ... it struck me that for the size of work we do a vertical slide attachment might possibly be a nifty solution?
Tim Lee

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James Moorhouse
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby James Moorhouse » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:25 am

Hi Tim,

Regarding your drilling question, centre drills are designed for making holes in the ends of a workpiece so it can be turned between centres on a lathe, not for spotting holes in order to start a twist drill. The geometry of a centre drill is such that the hole it creates matches the geometry of a lathe centre, i.e. 60º.

For spotting holes to start a twist drill, use a 120º spotting drill. This is a better match to the 118º point angle of a typical twist drill and keeps a relatively flexible twist drill on centre.

Having written this, the angle of the point of a centre drill is typically 118º, so if you're only pecking the workpiece using the point only, it could function as a spotting drill.

P1020665 low.jpg
P1020665 low.jpg (251.22 KiB) Viewed 914 times

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:21 pm

James Moorhouse wrote:Hi Tim,

Having written this, the angle of the point of a centre drill is typically 118º, so if you're only pecking the workpiece using the point only, it could function as a spotting drill.

P1020665 low.jpg

James ... I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

The issue I have is that when using a very fine drill under power I find that there is too much flex and it has a tendency to skate along the surface of the piece before it bites .... making accuracy a bit of an issue. I was thinking that the centre drill with say a 0.5mm tip but a 3mm shank would allow much more accurate location. With thin material it may well be all that was needed, and on thicker material it could with care be used as a locater. Spotting drills don't appear from your link to have the rigidity of the wider shaft with just the tip being the finer dim - unless I have misunderstood?
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:33 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I am currently contemplating the purchase of a Lathe .... I was wondering what peoples thoughts might be regarding the usefulness of a Vertical slide?

I don't possess a pillar drill or a milling machine ... it struck me that for the size of work we do a vertical slide attachment might possibly be a nifty solution?


I would still be interested to hear from anyone what their experience might be of using a vertical slide on the lathe tool post with a drill or cutter mounted in the lathe chuck. On the face of it it seems quite a rigid and accurate method for drilling and machining in the absence of a milling machine. :thumb

Axeminster for example have the following offering ...

1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg
I am sure that the vice ... or something similar could be attached via a plate to the slide bed for a kinder gripping action.
Tim Lee

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:56 pm

Noel wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:... being pulled by a small shunting tank is it that odd?


If you read the Wild Swan Profile of the 3F tanks, the Midland did not call them shunting engines. They were simply tank engines. Locations such as Toton employed horses initially to shunt wagons, only later were locos used. Mention that the 4F was "indifferent" is purely trainspotters' myth. They cannot have been bad as so many were built and continued to be built and if you read the Langridge book "under 10 CMEs" you will understand loco design and use better. My great uncle always called them either "Big Goods" or "class 4's" Apparently GWR Panniers had a similar bearing failure rate as 4F but you don't hear them called "indifferent". We are applying 1960's trainspotter predjudice here, magnified through 2018 eyes.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:06 pm

I was at Monsal Dale a few weeks ago and the wooden buffer stop from the yard headshunt is still there as is part of the signal box base. I have a cast model of the buffer stop. You can still see where the loading dock was built higher (the grouting and size of stones are different) and the bridge at the east end was obviously rebuilt in brick at some point. A very interesting location.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:56 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I was at Monsal Dale a few weeks ago and the wooden buffer stop from the yard headshunt is still there as is part of the signal box base. I have a cast model of the buffer stop. You can still see where the loading dock was built higher (the grouting and size of stones are different) and the bridge at the east end was obviously rebuilt in brick at some point. A very interesting location.

That's interesting Michael .... I don't suppose you took any photos? I really must make some time for a site visit before too long :thumb
Tim Lee

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Noel
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Noel » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:56 pm

Hardwicke wrote:Noel wrote:Le Corbusier wrote:... being pulled by a small shunting tank is it that odd?If you read the Wild Swan Profile of the 3F tanks, the Midland did not call them shunting engines. They were simply tank engines. Locations such as Toton employed horses initially to shunt wagons, only later were locos used. Mention that the 4F was "indifferent" is purely trainspotters' myth. They cannot have been bad as so many were built and continued to be built and if you read the Langridge book "under 10 CMEs" you will understand loco design and use better. My great uncle always called them either "Big Goods" or "class 4's" Apparently GWR Panniers had a similar bearing failure rate as 4F but you don't hear them called "indifferent". We are applying 1960's trainspotter predjudice here, magnified through 2018 eyes.


Not quite sure what happened here, but assume that this is intended as a reply to my post of 17 Sept. Just to make it clear, it's certainly not anything I posted.

Regarding "shunting engines" I was actually making that very point when I wrote "It is something of an enthusiast view to look at steam engines by categories in that way. So far as the railway was concerned it was just another engine of a given power class, and coal and water capacity, which could be used for any job within its capacity".

My description of the 4F was based on the views expressed in books by various footplatemen who worked on them. The axleboxes with which they were fitted were apparently notorious for poor performance, on the 4Fs, the 7F 0-8-0s and the Beyer Garratts, and led to the premature demise of the latter two classes, with the 7Fs being outlived by the class they were intended to replace. Their great numbers were basically down to LMSR internal politics in the Fowler era, and their longevity to economics. Why the axleboxes were so poor, when Derby used perfectly adequate ones on the Fowler 2-6-4 tanks appears to be a mystery. So far as the size of the 4Fs is concerned, at least 8 railways built significantly more powerful eight coupled freight engines before the grouping (GWR, NER, GNR, GCR, L&Y, LNWR, Caledonian, and the Midland itself [but only for the S&DJR]) which in several cases predated the Midland 4Fs.

I'll happily admit to not knowing very much about locomotive design, but I don't understand why you feel my post showed lack of understanding of their use.

I haven't come across any previous reference to bearing problems with GWR panniers, so can't comment one way or the other on that. However, I have read that Stanier era LMSR axleboxes were based on Swindon practice...

Edited 16/11 to add GCR to the list of 8 coupled freight engine builders
Last edited by Noel on Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Noel

BrianW
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby BrianW » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:13 pm

Hi Tim,

Drilling.
After marking out (e.g. loco sideframes), to ensure small drills pick up accurately, I normally very lightly centre pop the position, but in 2 stages:
1. with sewing needle in pin chuck, using eye glass accurately position, then press down quite hard to make small indentation (works on plastic, brass, nickel silver and steel provided it's not too hard).
2. with the workpiece supported on a hard flat surface (metal plate?), using the point of a fine centre punch it is possible to 'feel' the indent made by the needle, locate the centre punch and give it a tap with a small hammer. A small drill will pick up on this indent and should run true.

Vertical Milling Slide
I have a Warco WM180 lathe with which I am very happy
001Lathe.JPG
001 WM180

warco.co.uk Chiddingford just East of Hindhead, Surrey. No connection, just a very happy customer.
It may be a bit big if you only ever want to make 4mm scale parts, but this is a very rigid machine that also works very well on larger parts (I've made injectors and ejectors for 7¼ gauge locos and even screwcut oversize 3/4” BSPT boiler plugs).

I have a Vertical Milling Slide which is now pretty good, but they need to be mounted rigidly (which they may not be if mounted on the tool post), and as you commented, the 3 screw 'vices' are not very good. I removed the 3 screws and use toolmakers clamps
153VMS4.JPG
153 VMS 'vice'

Rather than mounting on the topslide (the recommended method for my machine) I mounted mine on a piece of 10mm plate and bolted that to the crosslide.
151VMS.JPG
151VMS mounting
I've lost the ability to set the slide at an angle for milling, but gained a lot of rigidity. It's very good for accurate hole positioning/drilling (photo 121) and also pretty good for milling.
120MillingCutout.JPG
120 milling

Depth of drilling and milling is now controlled by moving the saddle with leadscrew engaged, (instead of moving the topslide). Leadscrew is turned by hand, achieved by putting a homemade handle and card or plastic graduated dial on the end of the leadscrew. I cheat and used a basic single axis Digital Read Out on the saddle movement, which gives excellent accuraccy and saves a lot of counting, but is not essential.
This website might also be of interest for advice on lathe selection http://andysmachines.weebly.com/

Regards

Brian
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121DrillingClampingHole.JPG
121 drilling

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:29 pm

Thanks Brian ... really appreciate the input.

I'll have a look at the link and the Warco as well. The milling with the vertical slide looks very encouraging. :thumb
Tim Lee

andrewnummelin
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby andrewnummelin » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am

Le Corbusier wrote:I am currently contemplating the purchase of a Lathe .... I was wondering what peoples thoughts might be regarding the usefulness of a Vertical slide?

I don't possess a pillar drill or a milling machine ... it struck me that for the size of work we do a vertical slide attachment might possibly be a nifty solution?


I have an underused Unimat 3 lathe and have always wondered about the value of a vertical slide but I eventually decided against it on the basis of difficulties I was having in using it. (Lack of skill and practice rather than faults with the machine.) I ended up getting a Sherline mill which I have used far more (sometimes as a pillar drill) than the lathe. Which set-up is best for you will depend very much on what you envisage doing:
- do you need to be able to pick up the machine easily to put it away or do you have bench space permanently available?
- what items do you expect to work on? A milling machine may have a longer travel than can be achieved on a lathe. (What's the longest thing you are contemplating making - you may need a bed and travel that is longer to ease clamping.)
- would a pillar drill and milling bed be more useful? (Do you need cutting precision in 3 dimensions or just 2?)
- does the machine run fast enough for optimum performance with small tools (drills etc.).

And the HSE advice:
- go to your optician and make sure you have appropriate eye wear;
- have FUN!

I'm sure we're all looking forward to seeing what you produce with your new investment as I expect it will be as interesting as the rest of your inspriational contributions.
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:55 am

andrewnummelin wrote:I have an underused Unimat 3 lathe and have always wondered about the value of a vertical slide but I eventually decided against it on the basis of difficulties I was having in using it. (Lack of skill and practice rather than faults with the machine.) I ended up getting a Sherline mill which I have used far more (sometimes as a pillar drill) than the lathe. Which set-up is best for you will depend very much on what you envisage doing:
- do you need to be able to pick up the machine easily to put it away or do you have bench space permanently available?
- what items do you expect to work on? A milling machine may have a longer travel than can be achieved on a lathe. (What's the longest thing you are contemplating making - you may need a bed and travel that is longer to ease clamping.)
- would a pillar drill and milling bed be more useful? (Do you need cutting precision in 3 dimensions or just 2?)
- does the machine run fast enough for optimum performance with small tools (drills etc.).

And the HSE advice:
- go to your optician and make sure you have appropriate eye wear;
- have FUN!

I'm sure we're all looking forward to seeing what you produce with your new investment as I expect it will be as interesting as the rest of your inspriational contributions.


Thanks Andrew .... I suspect fun will be the operative word here ;)

I have always loved lathe work ... though my previous experience has been with wood turning - and never with my own machine.

With another hat on I play around a fair bit with a vintage VW camper including occasional engine building ... there are all sorts of little bits and pieces on the smaller scale that I can see a lathe being useful for where high stresses and extremely fine tolerances are not required. In fact the scope for use outside railway modelling seems to be growing the more I think about it :D

I was interested by Terry's comment at the recent workshop he ran .... that for many tasks a lathe was not strictly necessary and there were many work arounds ... but once you have one it often makes things easier, quicker and more accurate.

We will just have to see :thumb
Tim Lee

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:12 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:That's interesting Michael .... I don't suppose you took any photos? I really must make some time for a site visit before too long :thumb

I did. I'll post a few on here in due course. Just about to go out.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:42 pm

Here are a few of the photos I took in Monsal Dale.

P4 DSC_1945.jpg
Loading dock. See the different size stones and mortar difference on the later height.
P4 DSC_1945.jpg (26.75 KiB) Viewed 169 times


P4 DSC_1909.jpg
There's a buffer stop under there....somewhere!
P4 DSC_1909.jpg (29.92 KiB) Viewed 169 times


P4 DSC_1899.jpg
More loading dock.
P4 DSC_1899.jpg (27.02 KiB) Viewed 168 times


P4 DSC_1884.jpg
Bridge. Post 1903 but original stone base and abutments.
P4 DSC_1884.jpg (35.56 KiB) Viewed 168 times
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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John Donnelly
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:57 pm

Any chance of bigger photos, even opened in a new tab, they are tiny...

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:39 pm

P4 DSC_1884.jpg
P4 DSC_1884.jpg (35.56 KiB) Viewed 73 times

test
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:43 pm

DSC_1866.JPG


second test.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:45 pm

DSC_1869.JPG
wall to the lane below the station bridge
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:46 pm

DSC_1884.JPG
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:56 pm

DSC_1899.JPG
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:57 pm

DSC_1882.JPG
original stone part of bridge
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:59 pm

DSC_1880.JPG
east side of arch
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:00 pm

DSC_1877.JPG
west side of arch
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:02 pm

DSC_1878.JPG
west (Station) side of bridge
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:03 pm

DSC_1879.JPG
note how the bricks are keyed into the stones
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".


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