Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

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petermeyer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby petermeyer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:10 am

Hi Tim,

Oh yes! I am going to have a lever frame for my test track and it will be a Society one. Howard Bolton very kindly worked out a signalling diagram for me, which requires 17 levers, including point locks (plus one lever for a siding, which seems easier to include on the frame).

All the best,

Colin

I have a Society lever frame kit as yet unbuilt. I have also acquired the slide switches to make it work. I guess I am right in my assumption that it is principally designed to replicate the action of electronic switches in the control panel. But I guess it could be used as part of a mechanical frame but there may be other products that do that too?

Currently my layout has a test control panel and the lever frame will be built once everything is working properly (and I can ensure the room is free of cats!). I got my signalling diagram from a friend via the Signalling Record Society. They do have some online but lo res images.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:09 pm

petermeyer wrote:I have a Society lever frame kit as yet unbuilt. I have also acquired the slide switches to make it work. I guess I am right in my assumption that it is principally designed to replicate the action of electronic switches in the control panel. But I guess it could be used as part of a mechanical frame but there may be other products that do that too?

Currently my layout has a test control panel and the lever frame will be built once everything is working properly (and I can ensure the room is free of cats!). I got my signalling diagram from a friend via the Signalling Record Society. They do have some online but lo res images.

Hi Peter,

I don't suppose you have any instructions you could post? It would be very interesting to see what is involved. Would also be interested to see what comes with the kit
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:10 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Tim I can put you in touch with John if you like as he has said to me he'd be happy to help you, but he doesn't "do" Forums. I wonder though if the fact that while his interlocking is mechanical, all the controls from it to the points and signals are electric, would lessen the relevance to you?

Julian,

If he had any detail photos of his arrangement that he would be happy to share, that would be most helpful.
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:21 pm

Hi Tim, :)

Julian is being very helpful here Tim, I do believe that John based his on an article he read from somewhere. I will check with him and find out where the article was printed and will get back to you. I have built 6-wheelers which have run OK and used the Brassmasters underframe that I think is still available - it is more of a compensated type. I have not tried Bill's, but will be very interested to see how you get on. I am sure you will get a good result.

petermeyer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby petermeyer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:59 pm

Hi Peter,

I don't suppose you have any instructions you could post? It would be very interesting to see what is involved. Would also be interested to see what comes with the kit
Tim Lee


Hi Tim

The instructions are in the member's download section:

https://www.scalefour.org/downloads/leverframe.pdf

If you have problems downloading from there I can send you a copy.

Regards

Peter

PS: I also note from the latest Snooze that arrived this morning that the switches are available from the store.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:56 pm

petermeyer wrote:
Hi Peter,

I don't suppose you have any instructions you could post? It would be very interesting to see what is involved. Would also be interested to see what comes with the kit
Tim Lee


Hi Tim

The instructions are in the member's download section:

https://www.scalefour.org/downloads/leverframe.pdf

If you have problems downloading from there I can send you a copy.

Regards

Peter

PS: I also note from the latest Snooze that arrived this morning that the switches are available from the store.


Thanks Peter :thumb
Tim Lee

Julian Roberts
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:43 am

Monsaldale in 2mm scale was at this year's Model Rail Scotland. Interestingly deep cuttings cut into limestone hills. Look forward to your eventual layout Tim! Though I seem to recall seeing somewhere you have your own business and 3 kids so I don't know how you have time for anything unless you don't need to sleep!
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Noel
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Noel » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:05 pm

I don't think the BoT would have passed the signalling...
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:25 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Monsaldale in 2mm scale was at this year's Model Rail Scotland. Interestingly deep cuttings cut into limestone hills. Look forward to your eventual layout Tim! Though I seem to recall seeing somewhere you have your own business and 3 kids so I don't know how you have time for anything unless you don't need to sleep!

Thanks for posting Julian.
I was aware of the model but for me it doesn't quite do it - not faithful enough to the original :? As I am currently concentrating on the station and signal box area, it just highlights the levels of 'artistic licence' that has been chosen - I think the viaduct and landscape was their real interest ;) Still each to there own ... at least it means I have plenty to get my teeth into :D here's to finishing my test track so I can get stuck in to the real thing :thumb
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Noel
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Noel » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:17 pm

A "for profit" petition website. Like most [all?] social media, one can only ask why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change.org
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:34 pm

Noel wrote:A "for profit" petition website. Like most [all?] social media, one can only ask why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change.org


It was more the update on the petition I was asking about ...

In the next few weeks, in partnership with the major quarry companies operating in the Peak District and after several years of analysis, Peak Rail will be issuing a tender for bids to examine the engineering and administrative feasibility of reinstating the rail link between Peak Forest and Rowsley on the Buxton to Matlock route that was closed to through rail traffic 50 years ago on 1st July 1968.
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:46 am

A little of an update on my test track. I have been experimenting with the point rodding to see if I can make it functional (madness I know!). I have also been looking into how I might procure some nearer prototypical Midland rodding cradles. To this end I tracked down some pretty good photos and have been in conversation with Alan Buttler at Modelu about an addition to his range.
NRM 1 copy 4.jpg
Midland compensator.jpg
Alan developed this 3d model ...
MR Point Rodding Chair v1.jpeg
MR Point Rodding Chair v1.jpeg (58.26 KiB) Viewed 1476 times
If printed to 4mm scale the cradles are very small and unworkable for anything but cosmetic installation. However if printed to 6mm with slight adjustment they can be designed to accommodate a .7mm capillary tube with internal diam suitable for a .5mm nickel silver wire. Looking at the 4mm cradles insitu, to my eye they looked too small ... almost as if the size didn't really scale as the eye read them as being just too flimsy to carry out their task. The 6mm ones curiously looked much more convincing to me ... (might just be me ;) )

So the plan was .... bond the stools to appropriate bases; bond a small section of capillary tube into the top of the cradle such that the rodding 'wire could run freely within .... the theory being that the cradles/tube sections would restrain the wire preventing lateral distortion without unduly effecting the action. First experiments are encouraging -

Point rodding in place with rodding max forward
point rodding - 3.jpg


Point rodding in place with rodding max backwards
point rodding - 4.jpg


Detail of capillary tube bonded to cradle
point rodding - 5.jpg


I have included a omega loop to ensure that there is always tension/pressure within the system (will be covered by some strategically placed boards). Everything seems to move quite freely and positively with little drag and the wire has no distortion. It also all feels surprisingly strong and robust ... so time to transfer to the test track and give it some use. Next up a homemade pivot lever actuator/frame
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:57 pm

Hi Tim, :)

This is all good stuff and an interesting application of a new technique. I was wondering why the block for the base was not included and perhaps a stalk below allowing for a stronger attachment than just glue. The stalk I realise could not be fitted to multiples, but certainly a number of the stools could be printed on to a continuous baseplate which would allow for trimming into 2s, 5s etc. depending on what is being put together.

The equalising unit working in the vertical plane is interesting - hadn't realised that this was Midland practice. Learn something new every day!

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:35 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Tim, :)

This is all good stuff and an interesting application of a new technique. I was wondering why the block for the base was not included and perhaps a stalk below allowing for a stronger attachment than just glue. The stalk I realise could not be fitted to multiples, but certainly a number of the stools could be printed on to a continuous baseplate which would allow for trimming into 2s, 5s etc. depending on what is being put together.

The equalising unit working in the vertical plane is interesting - hadn't realised that this was Midland practice. Learn something new every day!

Allan :)

Allan,

I will pass on your thoughts to Alan Buttler .... however, the cradle bonds down very strongly to the base just using a dab of superglue. On tests I found the bond was actually stronger that the 3d print material which broke first.

If you look at the following image you will see that the Midland combined single, double and triple cradles depending on requirement ... I understand that Alan will be printing all three options.
Midland Point Rodding 2.jpg


With a little more care and some piano wire closing across the top I don't think my capillary tube will be too noticeable ... fingers crossed. I have transferred the test set up to the test track and it throws the switch very well.
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RobM
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby RobM » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Wow Tim...some serious experimentation going on there and hope all works out well........enjoying this thread....... :thumb
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:24 pm

RobM wrote:Wow Tim...some serious experimentation going on there and hope all works out well........enjoying this thread....... :thumb
Rob

So do I Rob.... could all go pear shaped yet .... but then there is always the trusty tortoise :D - but as I am going power free with the protocab system, it will be great if I can go mechanical for the switches particularly if I can run it all above board. On the strength of this I think I can get it to work ... but for how long before it fails is anybodies guess :shock: Here's to test tracks where it doesn't matter :thumb
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CDGFife
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby CDGFife » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:19 pm

As you might imagine, I'm all in favour of this sort of thing Tim - looking good. In my experience with similar on Cadhay the weak point there is the through the board movement, so your plan to keep everything above the board is, I would think, a good one. I also found in practice the Ambis stools I used, whilst looking extremely flimsy (well they are to scale!) kept the 0.6mm NS wire I used for my rodding in line with no distortion. After the fact someone suggested to me that 0.4mm dental wire might be more rigid and would allow the true to scale rodding to be produced but I've never tracked any down to try it.

Am watching with interest to see how you get on with the practical testing. Nothing like a nice long operating session to find the weak spots!! Good luck!

Cheers

Chris

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:02 pm

CDGFife wrote:As you might imagine, I'm all in favour of this sort of thing Tim - looking good. In my experience with similar on Cadhay the weak point there is the through the board movement, so your plan to keep everything above the board is, I would think, a good one. I also found in practice the Ambis stools I used, whilst looking extremely flimsy (well they are to scale!) kept the 0.6mm NS wire I used for my rodding in line with no distortion. After the fact someone suggested to me that 0.4mm dental wire might be more rigid and would allow the true to scale rodding to be produced but I've never tracked any down to try it.

Am watching with interest to see how you get on with the practical testing. Nothing like a nice long operating session to find the weak spots!! Good luck!

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris,

I meant to ask you how you had gone on with the rodding on Cadhay. The 0.5 NS I have used looks pretty good to my eye and as you can see from the prototype image above the Midland also used hollow tube rodding which was pretty robust. I might also try 0.45NS as this will give a little more wriggle room within the capillary tube and reduce some of the stresses.

My plan for Monsal Dale is to arrange the boards so I keep all the rodding to one board, as I fear a board joint could scupper the whole thing.The plan is to see if I can't bring the rodding above board all the way to the signal box and then through to an operating lever frame at the front of the layout - but first I need to get a feel for how robust the set up is and what might be involved if repairs are required. The latest Society lever frames look pretty special and the interlocking is a work of art!

We will just have to see how we get on. Interestingly I still have my point blades soldered to pivoting rivets at the heels, as I decided to wait for a failure before going ahead with the more robust solution discussed earlier in the thread. I am curious to see how long it takes for the failure to occur.
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CDGFife
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby CDGFife » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:32 pm

HI Tim,

I started with 0.4 nickel silver for my rodding but switched to 0.6 as I found the 0.4 was just a little too flimsy/bendy. The 0.6mm rodding has generally behaved well over the years, and my only issues have generally been the transfer of the radial movement through the baseboard.

Any repairs have generally involved a steady hand, soldering iron and building up the courage to get it done! Be interested to see how you get on with the printed stools, durability-wise.

Cheers

Chris

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Colin Parks
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Colin Parks » Tue May 15, 2018 8:09 am

Hello Tim,

I have just been looking at your wotk with the point rodding. It looks very neat and the omega loop is an interesting idea. Have you made any more progress on this?

All the best,

Colin

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue May 15, 2018 8:47 am

Colin Parks wrote:Hello Tim,

I have just been looking at your wotk with the point rodding. It looks very neat and the omega loop is an interesting idea. Have you made any more progress on this?

All the best,

Colin

Hi Colin,

I've had it transferred to the test track for a few weeks now and it is all still working well. :shock: I will see if I can put up a few images later this week. The omega loop as installed is a little large at the moment, which would make hiding it problematic, but it works well in terms of relieving/keeping pressure within the system. The slight drag within the capillary tubes is such that it throws the switch well.

I am waiting on more cradles as the ones to date were a prototype run - then I can install the complete rodding run interlinking both switches on the test track and working back to an indicative signal box point - having got this far I am praying it continues to work. I've had no stool failures, but the theory is that because the capillary tube is permanently threaded on the wire swapping over a cradle shouldn't pose an insurmountable running repair.

All good fun :thumb
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Colin Parks
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Colin Parks » Tue May 15, 2018 3:55 pm

Hello Tim,

Glad to hear the rodding is working well. You have distinct advantage over those of us with electrified track, in that none of your components need to be insulated to avoid shorts. What locks the switch mechanism and what is at the signal box end to operate the rodding - a lever?

I am a little behind schedule on the rodding front, but have some nickel silver etched rodding cradles from JFS. They are very small, well scale size, but will be quite robust (when I get around to soldering them together).

All the best,

Colin

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue May 15, 2018 4:21 pm

Colin Parks wrote:Hello Tim,

Glad to hear the rodding is working well. You have distinct advantage over those of us with electrified track, in that none of your components need to be insulated to avoid shorts. What locks the switch mechanism and what is at the signal box end to operate the rodding - a lever?

I am a little behind schedule on the rodding front, but have some nickel silver etched rodding cradles from JFS. They are very small, well scale size, but will be quite robust (when I get around to soldering them together).

All the best,

Colin


At the moment the drag on the rodding effectively provides the lock keeping tension in the omega loop. In due course my hope is that the lever at the signal box end will throw a little further than required and lock off with the omega loop taking up the additional throw and thus holding the switch tight to the rail. Its working at the moment purely with the drag ... which is encouraging.

Not having to bother about Power is a god send in many ways.
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu May 31, 2018 7:45 am

I thought I would post a few (not fantastic) photos of the point rodding as currently installed on the test track. It utilises the test samples that Alan at Modelu printed for me and so the chairs are double where in reality they would be singles. This is as far as I have got as I await further cradles.

point rodding - 1 (1).jpg
point rodding - 2 (1).jpg
point rodding - 7.jpg
point rodding - 6.jpg
point rodding - 4 (1).jpg


As things stand the rodding is throwing the switch nicely with no discernible flex. Because the cranks change the direction with minimal deviation and the force is always linear, there appears to be very little stress in the system. The final activation will need to be using a pivot lever which ensures that the forces always remain linear. I have no idea how robust it will prove but so far so good.
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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