Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards.
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RobM
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby RobM » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:58 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I thought I would post some advice rather than ask a question for the first time on this thread. :?

I am uncertain who reads this thread, apart from those more experienced and helpful souls who have been kind enough to give encouragement and a gentle prompt or prod here and there when needed or requested. I don't know how interesting, boring or annoying it might be.



Good advice Tim......when I returned to model railways and jumping into P4 I had ambitious projects in mind. As each one failed I went onto the next only to fail again......happened 3 times and 3 projects scrapped. The Standard Gauge Workshop came along and was my saviour with the introduction of Manston Brewery and later Mount Woodville. Both have quite simple track work and both have provided a learning curve and I am still learning as I go onto the colliery project.
I'm sure that the majority of the forum followers are following your thread, I certainly am and to see just how many are following just check the number of views before and after a new post is submitted. Certainly the input is interesting, boring or annoying...certainly not :!:
Cheers.....Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:15 pm

RobM wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:I thought I would post some advice rather than ask a question for the first time on this thread. :?

I am uncertain who reads this thread, apart from those more experienced and helpful souls who have been kind enough to give encouragement and a gentle prompt or prod here and there when needed or requested. I don't know how interesting, boring or annoying it might be.



Good advice Tim......when I returned to model railways and jumping into P4 I had ambitious projects in mind. As each one failed I went onto the next only to fail again......happened 3 times and 3 projects scrapped. The Standard Gauge Workshop came along and was my saviour with the introduction of Manston Brewery and later Mount Woodville. Both have quite simple track work and both have provided a learning curve and I am still learning as I go onto the colliery project.
I'm sure that the majority of the forum followers are following your thread, I certainly am and to see just how many are following just check the number of views before and after a new post is submitted. Certainly the input is interesting, boring or annoying...certainly not :!:
Cheers.....Rob

Interestingly, I have just spent an enjoyable half hour re-reading the Manston Thread .... hadn't realized it was your first successful P4 layout :shock: that sets the bar pretty high :thumb
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:48 pm

Hi Tim, :D

I am all for building test pieces especially for those just starting. In the early days I experimented quite a bit especially with track making and building locos using turned Romfords! It is unusual I admit,to build a test rig the size of Grayrigg.

The starters group at the moment has quite a few who are intending a test track before the layout construction. It builds up both skills and allows for trial and error and re-thinking and should lead to confidence when the layout proper gets built. Part of the purpose of the group is to avoid some of the pitfalls.

I would say however that the perfect layout has never been built, despite what magazine articles suggest. There have been some beauties over the years and many of them exhibited, but if you dig a little you will find that most have some flaws. This is where when exhibiting a layout the operators are very important - different operators can make a layout seem like a jewel or a pig at a show. Could give you all sorts of instances.

Layouts can also be designed to be more robust at shows, having said that I am experimenting with servos on the new layout and will be testing a few theories directly on the layout. If they don't work properly I will whip them out and I have conventional motors which I can use.

I have not put any photos of the Wemyss layout up last couple of weeks, due to it being Christmas and New Year and less people likely to be reading however progress has been good during this period and the first train run on Saturday. I will try to take some photos of the track when I get the layout up again as I have the boards dismantled for the fitting of operating rods etc. :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:28 pm

Just for the sake of completeness, I think I can now finally put to bed the debate regarding the position of the signal beyond the lie by loop prior to Cressbrook Tunnel.

Fortuitously I came across this illustration. When comparing with the map and the later illustration it suggests to me that, because we can't see the tunnel mouth in the black and white photo it must be tucked back behind the final curve in the later photo not too far away from where the drystone wall descends to track level. That would place it a fair bit further on than indicated on the OS map - perhaps where the arrow with the figures 279 is pointing. It is also interesting to note how much more curved the line appears than the plan shows.

Cressbrook Tunel Signal.jpeg


Monsal Dale Signal Positions.jpg


Siding photo.jpg
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

shipbadger
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby shipbadger » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:46 pm

Tim,

Not unusual for map makers to straighten out curves. The former boundary to my property had a distinct curve, but the OS map showed it as a straight line. I suspect that before the use of satellites there were only so many points that could be measured and when they came to draw the map the draughtsman just connected the various points in whatever looked the most obvious way.

Tony Comber

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:54 pm

Hi Tim, :)

Nice photo, but I would not guarantee that was the position of the signal during MR days. Signals were often moved for various operational reasons. :o It may have been that the signal was moved further down the line because of train lengths or line speeds etc. Grayrigg was a classic example which I could go into the detail, but all of the signals were moved between the LNWR days and the end of the second world war and yet it was a small country station on the main line.

Tony's comment is also apposite, the OS of Thornton Junction has an important crossover missing from the junction itself, so mistakes were often made despite photos etc., so you cannot assume everything is just as it appears.

So caution is still the word, however a really nice find. :thumb

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:18 pm

Alan,

You may be right. But the marked position doesn't feel credible. The longest train that could access the lie by and still be held at the signal as indicated would be in the region of 350ft. See attached plan using the handy measuring facility. Now allowing 18ft over the buffers for a typical pre war mineral wagon and subtracting for the loco (Johnson 2f - 54ft) and guards van, that would give a maximum train length of 15 wagons :? I vauguely remember reading somewhere that the permissible length due to the gradient for trains was 28 wagons ... though I am not certain about this - I will have to have a search and see if I can find where this was noted. Message to self ... take referenced notes :cry:

1898 Monsal Dale.jpg
Tim Lee

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Noel
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Noel » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:48 pm

A reasonable expectation would be that the distance between the points and the starter would be more than the length of the loop, because otherwise the capacity of the loop cannot all be used, as you imply. I note that different parts of the map have different colour backgrounds, so is it possible that two maps are involved, the right hand one updated to show the loop, the left hand one not updated and showing the original position of the starter?
Noel

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:37 pm

Noel wrote:A reasonable expectation would be that the distance between the points and the starter would be more than the length of the loop, because otherwise the capacity of the loop cannot all be used, as you imply. I note that different parts of the map have different colour backgrounds, so is it possible that two maps are involved, the right hand one updated to show the loop, the left hand one not updated and showing the original position of the starter?


That was my thinking Noel. The map extracts are both from the same year but separate sheets. Allan is certainly correct about moving signals ... you can see by the consecutive OS maps from 1887 to 1898 to 1919. On the 1887 map no signals are marked on the line at all ... but I think we can assume that the position would have been different anyway as the lie by had not been constructed at this point. By 1898 the signal is in the position which I feel may be wrong given the length of the lie by. Moving forward to 1919 it has moved much closer to the tunnel mouth. From the early photos I have it was certainly in this position by 1911 as there is evidence of a white painted back ground at the tunnel on the official photo.

Maybe the 1898 position is correct, but it was moved quite quickly as the size of trains increased .... but this would seem odd. It is also interesting that the position has moved back from the tunnel entrance for the much later 1962 photo? Perhaps the lie by has gone by this point as in the track photo in colour?
1878.jpg
1897.jpg
1919.jpg
Tim Lee

Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:45 pm

Not to do with the maps etc but:

I am no MR or LMS expert, but the caption to the black and white picture looks wrong. Counting the wheels, the leading engine is a 2-6-4T...?

Philip

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:03 pm

Philip Hall wrote:Not to do with the maps etc but:

I am no MR or LMS expert, but the caption to the black and white picture looks wrong. Counting the wheels, the leading engine is a 2-6-4T...?

Philip


Eagle eyed I think? A quick web search turned up the following Back Track entry

LMS Fairburn 2-6-4T no 42228, Locomotive

So this would suggest 42228 was a 2-6-4T
Tim Lee

Phil O
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Phil O » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:35 pm

Tim

Have you looked on NLS maps site as for some of the 25 inch maps there is a seamless tiled version available.

Phil

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:38 pm

Phil O wrote:Tim

Have you looked on NLS maps site as for some of the 25 inch maps there is a seamless tiled version available.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Yes I am aware of that function (measuring facility on the earlier post is using the tiled option) ... but found that to compare the different dates I needed to access the independent sheets ... perhaps I am doing something wrong.

Tim
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