5V model railway

[proto87stores]

Ted,

I notice your examples are mainly for locomotives operating on their own. Have you considered what it would take for a 5v motor to haul a 14 coach train with the usual pin point bearings up the proverbial 2% grade?

You mention that a typical modern 12 v motor takes 300 mA at full running speed. I'm not sure if that is running light or is for the actual load of a hypothetical long passenger train on a grade that I suggest. However the power needing to be delivered to the motor in your case is 12 x 0.3 A, or 3.6 watts. To deliver the same power (for a similar train and speed) to a 5V motor, it will need to draw 720 mA. I realize your battery can deliver that much current in the short term, but do you have examples of suitable small motors that can draw that much power, encased in models, without burning up?

Andy

[zebedeesknees]

Not yet.

[JackBlack]

I notice your examples are mainly for locomotives operating on their own. Have you considered what it would take for a 5v motor to haul a 14 coach train with the usual pin point bearings up the proverbial 2% grade?

To be honest I've been focussed on getting r/c into tiny locomotives because that was the main blocker for me when we started on all of this. If I couldn't get everything, including a decent sized battery, into a GWR 517 then I wasn't interested. Because of that we've concentrated mainly on small motors and small batteries.

Ted has been fitting R/C into big diesels for a long time, but neither of us have a test track big enough to see what they could pull. There are very chunky 5V motors out there, and very chunky batteries, but for me personally that's not so much of a challenge.

[Le Corbusier]

I'm curious as to where Protocab sits within all of this .... as this is the RC system I am using. I have used a standard Mashima motor from my stash and the protocab battery and LCU. It runs pretty well for a couple of hours and the power/speed seems more than adequate .

That would be in my 1f .... larger motors and batteries are available for larger locos

[proto87stores]

Not yet.

I just thought it might be worth making sure your technology approach is sufficiently scalable, before spending a lot of blood, sweat, etc. on making it work for layouts that might turn out to be limited to very short trains.

Andy

[JackBlack]

I'm curious as to where Protocab sits within all of this .... as this is the RC system I am using.

Speaking for myself, I was very interested in Protocab back in 2016/2017, but I couldn't see how you could fit the components and battery into a small loco. They were promising smaller parts at some point in the dim and distant future, but none of us are getting any younger, hence pushing forward with Ted's Deltang tx/rx stuff. I've not looked at Protocab for a long time now so maybe they have something new that would work.

[Le Corbusier]

I don't know if my 1f counts as small?

Final before painting - 1.jpg

Final before painting - 2.jpg

Final before painting - 4.jpg

Final before painting - 5.jpg

[Carlos]

It counts as "great"

[JackBlack]

I don't know if my 1f counts as small?

Yes it does!

[JackBlack]

Looking at Protocab website it doesn't seem like they're active at the moment and I don't see the smaller batteries and receiver they'd talked about, so not a viable option for me.

This is what I'm currently working with, fully protected rechargeable batteries in various sizes, 500mAh, 300mAh and 55mAh, the Deltang RX from Micron Radio Control, and then a Minebea motor from China, which has a 1mm shaft and tapped m1.4 holes (perfect for High Level gearboxes):

IMG_20211113_090259894.jpg

There's also the cost to consider. The big investment is the TX, the DT one from Micron (TX22x) is £79, and after that each RX is about £30. The batteries cost about £1/£2 each and the motors the same. One order from AliExpress can set you up with a supply for life.

The thing you don't have here yet is the "plug & play" kit that Protocab put together, and it's a bit of a faff to get everything connected up and working. But in my view that's nothing compared to the faff of pick-ups, cleaning and wiring track etc etc. I wish someone would pick this stuff up and make a plug & play version, it can't be that difficult .

[zebedeesknees]

Looking at Protocab website it doesn't seem like they're active at the moment and I don't see the smaller batteries and receiver they'd talked about, so not a viable option for me.

It seemed clear to me when Tony first demo-ed their products at the MRC Kings Cross that the Protocab business model was targeted at 7mm scale and above. It's much easier to get things to fit, and there is more disposable income floating around in the larger scales, not enough in 4mm and smaller.

The lack of small products should be no surprise - the plagiarised quote "The only way to make a small fortune from (model railways) is to start with a large one" applies...

Ted.

[zebedeesknees]

Ted has been fitting R/C into big diesels for a long time, but neither of us have a test track big enough to see what they could pull.

True, but I do have the drawbar pull testing rig.
Currently radio fitted here are five Bachmann Sulzer type 2, (24 & 25) two EE type 1 (20), two D800 hydraulic (42/3), one Hymec (35), and a 350hp shunter (08). That's just the diesel locomotives. All of them retain 12 volt motors, original apart from three that have the old ModelTorque 600mA conversions. Two 'skinheads' and the Hymec have Penbits bogies, so are being fitted with battery and booster conversion, and rather than re-fit pickups, have just a refuelling socket. Others will get sprung bogies and battery power as time permits.

But - and the point of this thread - where haulage is paramount, until I can locate suitable double ended 5 volt motors, I am quite happy to stay with booster and 12 volt motors. LIke the WD 2-8-0 that I mentioned in the beginning of the 'My 5v railway' thread that not everyone 'contributing' seems to have read carefully enough...

It is only the smaller locos with limited space that need weight and a small battery with few extra bits so benefit from the 5 volt motor.

Ted.

[proto87stores]

Unlike boxy diesels, most of my "locomotives" are streetcars, subway way cars and EMUs, which have nearly all windows everywhere above the the waistline.

It's bad enough trying to create and fit power bogies with properly working suspension hidden below the bottom edge of the windows, (ideally under-floor) without having to consider finding extra hidden space for larger, higher current, 5v motors and batteries too.

The good news is that such vehicles (with a simple steel bar floor) can be made heavy for 100% track holding and that together with so called American axle bearing pick-up also obviates the need for those notorious separate spring wire pick-ups.

Andy

[Le Corbusier]

Looking at Protocab website it doesn't seem like they're active at the moment and I don't see the smaller batteries and receiver they'd talked about, so not a viable option for me .

I believe that they are still looking at finance options for the next range of products as pre-orders were not large enough to press the manufacturing button The next generation is smaller where required I believe.

Lucky for me their smallest set works for my smallest loco

Not sure they are solely targeting 7mm .... but the current kit (without promotional offers) is quite pricey

[grovenor-2685]

Unlike boxy diesels, most of my "locomotives" are streetcars, subway way cars and EMUs, which have nearly all windows everywhere above the the waistline.
Andy

None of which would seem to need to be able to HAUL 14 coaches.

[proto87stores]

Unlike boxy diesels, most of my "locomotives" are streetcars, subway way cars and EMUs, which have nearly all windows everywhere above the the waistline.
Andy

None of which would seem to need to be able to HAUL 14 coaches.

I'm only familiar with UK emus up to to early 70's. And I don't know of any regularly running specific 14 car formation, that would match a locomotive hauled set. However there are several examples from then that were long or fast or hilly or some of each.

Class 309 operated in rush hour in 12 car formation and was rated for 100 mph
The Brighton Belle ran in 10 car formation and was rated for 75 mph.
My local 305's ran in a 9 car formation and could do 70 mph IIRC.
Southend Pier trains used 7 car formation, as did much of the LT tube trains
You know the actual grades better than I, but the DLR has some very noticeable up and down routes.
My US interest prototype, The Pacific Electric ran 6 (67 ft) car boat trains to Long Beach Harbor.
San Francisco BART runs 10 (70 ft) car trains.

The more modern EMU"s of course sport sliding doors, and some have no guard/luggage compartments which further complicate modelling the interiors all the way to the floor in many places.

The main technical issue that would worry me personally if using 2.5 times higher current running versions of our small motors is the reliability of the higher current brushes needed for traditional brush/commutator DC motors.

Andy

[JackBlack]

Unlike boxy diesels, most of my "locomotives" are streetcars, subway way cars and EMUs, which have nearly all windows everywhere above the the waistline.
Andy

None of which would seem to need to be able to HAUL 14 coaches.

Indeed! I would have thought this would be the ideal application for radio control.

I have to say though, if you already have your established way of doing things, you already have your DC or DCC set-up, then this is not for you.

It's an alternative, and a viable choice for people (like me) starting out.

[proto87stores]

Unlike boxy diesels, most of my "locomotives" are streetcars, subway way cars and EMUs, which have nearly all windows everywhere above the the waistline.
Andy

None of which would seem to need to be able to HAUL 14 coaches.

Indeed! I would have thought this would be the ideal application for radio control.

I have to say though, if you already have your established way of doing things, you already have your DC or DCC set-up, then this is not for you.

It's an alternative, and a viable choice for people (like me) starting out.

The thread title (and my posted concerns) is about using 5v rather than 12v for motors, thereby likely having much higher motor drive currents. That has nothing to do with a choice of using Radio rather than some other control system.

Andy

[proto87stores]

Unlike boxy diesels, most of my "locomotives" are streetcars, subway way cars and EMUs, which have nearly all windows everywhere above the the waistline.
Andy

None of which would seem to need to be able to HAUL 14 coaches.

Indeed! I would have thought this would be the ideal application for radio control.

I have to say though, if you already have your established way of doing things, you already have your DC or DCC set-up, then this is not for you.

It's an alternative, and a viable choice for people (like me) starting out.

So far I haven't become an electric prototype modelling purist. Otherwise I would think the far more obvious ideal application for that is to model working O/H and/or 3rd rail and end up with the wiring and wheels and motor/chassis simplicity of "Hornby Dublo" style powering instead of "2-rail".

E.g. No need for insulated wheels/axles/pick-ups. Nor switching common crossing power at turnouts. All metal throwbars and even track/sleepers if desired. And zero additional electronics/batteries, etc. cost.

Andy

[proto87stores]

I was wondering what equipment plus presumably ~70ft of track space is needed to keep 72 battery locos simultaneously fully charged and ready to roll? Plus the associated presumably numerous rakes of a dozen or so each battery fitted coaches with the mentioned switchable lighting?

Andy

[proto87stores]

When considering R/C as the future of model locomotive operation, I would recommend taking a look at already current technology as a starting point. Not 1970's radio control.

For example consider a "smart watch" available from "alibaba" right now for less than $20.00 US.




Blue tooth bi-directional comms built in. Fast low power cpu with I/o channels for blood pressure, internal accelerometer, touch screen, real-time time clock and display, lighting and sound . internal rechargeable battery, with magnetic charging contacts. Can be remote controlled from most cell phones., with the app actually determining the desired functionality.

Or a second modified unit could be the controller (throttle in US parlance) as well. How does one finger control on your wrist and nothing else to hold sound?

I'm not suggesting the internal battery can run a traction motor, but it could easily be adapted to control either an external battery or track power , or both.

I haven't taken one of these apart, buy it might even be possible to adapt an exiting unit, rather than just copy all the ideas for new design.

Food for thought?

Andy

[Paul Townsend]

I see Protocab are shutting up shop due to difficulties obtaining vital components.
It was a brave attempt by Tony Hagon to offer radio control of battery locos and demonstrated at Scaleforum several times

[Andy Reichert]

Those contemplating radio control with (optional) battery power might wish to checkout something called Blunami.

Apparently direct wireless dcc control.

https://soundtraxx.com/products/blunami/blu-2200

Andy

[Bilton Junction]

Probably a daft question, but is it possible to use two Minebea 5V motors driving each bogie separately but wired with a single (perhaps larger) battery and control with a single receiver?

[zebedeesknees]

Probably a daft question, but is it possible to use two Minebea 5V motors driving each bogie separately but wired with a single (perhaps larger) battery and control with a single receiver?

Not daft at all, it would work, but with some considerations. I am intending to go down that route, but haven't got round to it yet.
You don't say what this is for, a loco or a multiple unit. If it is to power a multiple unit, it will be fine, but in a loco then a question arises as to whether the receiver can handle the current when the loco is under load. If in any doubt I suggest using the MR 601 receiver which works on 5v and has sufficient power capacity.

Assuming Li-po with internal protection circuits, battery size is proportional to current drawn over time. That is, with two motors and the same single battery it will last half as long. Use a bigger battery if space permits, or two (or more) batteries can be wired together + to + and - to - to multiply the capacity, not the voltage, PROVIDED they are charged to the same voltage within a couple of tenths of a volt before they are wired together. They will then charge and discharge as a single battery.
The motors will need to be wired in parallel, not series if they are to run on 5 volts. They could be wired in series, but that raises further complications, like booster circuits and resistors...

Ted.
P.S. The definition of a difficult question is one to which you do not know the answer; the definition of a daft question is one to which everyone knows the answer!