Important announcement from Lanarkshire Models

[Noel]

some of which don't have any insurance what so ever, a bit naive one might say but it is coming to the point that to protect oneself from real or spurious claims from anywhere not just North America you've got to have some liability insurance

It's many, many years past that point I would suggest. I know many people do not look kindly on insurance companies, but they don't make the rules under which they operate. That is done by legislators, courts and doctors. The last might be a bit surprising, but medical advances mean that people may well now survive incidents which they would not have done in the past. This often comes at a financial cost for ongoing care, which can run to many hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Today I was looking at VW car parts on the internet, the parts I wanted were to come from Germany so I looked at the T&Cs and guess what, they don't send to the States....

I'm not surprised by this. Laving aside the different medical and legal backgrounds in the USA, which may substantially increase costs compared to Europe, the issue may also be punitive damages, a concept rare in European law [including the UK], but which can greatly inflate liability claims settlements in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_damages

[Proto87Stores]

That's the whole point of having a US distributor for your products. VW has a US based distribution network. They don't need to send parts separately from Germany. And of course, many parts used in the US VW's are to a different spec from German used parts anyway.

Andy

[billbedford]

Speaking to fellow traders/manufacturers over the past few months some of which don't have any insurance what so ever, a bit naive one might say but it is coming to the point that to protect oneself from real or spurious claims from anywhere not just North America you've got to have some liability insurance, it's not for 'lost packages' or 'missing cheques' but in case of accidents - someone tripping over your boxes at a show, someone not looking out for sharp etches, someone leaving a small part out for a kiddie to chew can all result in a claim which could well be thrown out but you still have the cost of your lawyers and your time etc.

How many of the traders you spoke to had actually had insurance claims made against them?

[Dave Franks]

Hi Bill, sorry but I missed your post. No, I don't know anyone personally who has been sued from America but the threat is always there and as 'Maitland' has said above it wrecked his business though he doesn't say what kind of business. I've spoken to a number of manufacturers and traders about this and I'm afraid some up till now had buried their heads in the sand to avoid the subject or they have paid up the big premium increases to keep the North American market. My total North American sales last year were less than the premium increase so I decided to cut my losses as I'm looking forward to a quiet retirement in a couple of years. I might even get my layout finished.
I apologise to my North American customers for my selfish decision but needs must....

Dave Franks

[David Knight]

Hi David,

As one of your North American customers ( Canada) I am saddened by your decision but understand now why you have to make it. Not to worry, those of us who really need your products will find a way to get your goodies across the waves.

Cheers,

David

[billbedford]

Hi Bill, sorry but I missed your post. No, I don't know anyone personally who has been sued from America but the threat is always there and as 'Maitland' has said above it wrecked his business though he doesn't say what kind of business. I've spoken to a number of manufacturers and traders about this and I'm afraid some up till now had buried their heads in the sand to avoid the subject or they have paid up the big premium increases to keep the North American market.

In the 27 years I've been in the trade I haven't had a complaint that would come anywhere near a product liability case. So the chance of being sued for this is very small, but then, perhaps we both sell to the more 'sensible' end of the demographic.

However I believe you have against one of the bigger scams in the insurance industry. That is that the insurers expect a full disclosure of relevant information, but won't provide any guidance about what information is or is not relevant to the insurance requested. I suggest you go back to your in insurers and/or their agents and start talking about warranties and disclaimers, to be put in your Terms and Conditions or printed on your packaging, that can limit the scope of of your potential liability.

I've quoted, below, Shapeways' disclaimer, which seems to me to be a brilliant piece of anti-marketing and totally at odds with the tone of the more glossy parts of their website. The capitals and bold face are original.

PLEASE NOTE THAT, UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED IN THE DESCRIPTION FOR A SPECIFIC MATERIAL, THE MATERIALS WE USE FOR MANUFACTURING THE 3D MODELS MAKE THE 3D MODELS SUITABLE ONLY FOR DECORATIVE PURPOSES AND THEY ARE NOT SUITED FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE. THE 3D MODELS ARE NOT SUITED TO BE USED AS TOYS, OR TO BE GIVEN TO CHILDREN. THE 3D MODELS SHOULD NOT COME IN CONTACT WITH ELECTRICITY OR FOOD OR LIQUIDS AND SHOULD BE KEPT AWAY FROM HEAT.

[Noel]

However I believe you have against one of the bigger scams in the insurance industry. That is that the insurers expect a full disclosure of relevant information, but won't provide any guidance about what information is or is not relevant to the insurance requested. I suggest you go back to your in insurers and/or their agents and start talking about warranties and disclaimers, to be put in your Terms and Conditions or printed on your packaging, that can limit the scope of of your potential liability.

Not a scam, Bill. Insurance contracts are generally contracts Uberrima Fides, a Latin legal term usually translated as 'utmost good faith'. The current situation in the context of household policies has been relaxed somewhat by recent court decisions, but I don't think that the situation has changed much for business insurance. The rational is that insurers have to assess the risk in order to decide 1) do they want to cover it at all, and 2) if so, at what premium. However, only the proposer/insured knows the information required to judge what the actual risk is. Ostensibly similar businesses may present very different risks. So the law says you have to disclose anything which might be relevant to the insurer in assessing the risk. Your opinion of its relevance isn't relevant . If insurers provide guidance, then this may, and probably will, be used against them in court. Nobody, so far as I know, has come up with a better idea in well over two centuries.

Warranties and disclaimers are another legal minefield, since courts may choose to ignore them or interpret them in a very different way to that intended by the writer. I am not legally trained, but find the disclaimer you quote rather odd, since they must be aware of how their products are being used. That being so, I wonder how effective it would be, although much might depend on the information given in "UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED IN THE DESCRIPTION FOR A SPECIFIC MATERIAL".

[David B]

This just gets barmier. The insurers are the experienced people in the field so ought to provide some sort of guidance or assistance. It is no different to someone saying 'I didn't know' and another saying, 'but you didn't ask'. The first person then says,' how was I to know the questions to ask?'. You say the 'proposer/insured knows the information required to judge what the actual risk is' but they don't have the experience of the insurance company. Each party should be able to discuss the risk, both asking questions and providing answers, helping each other to a better understanding, reducing any risk and with it cost.

I am inclined to Bill's view. The insurance companies want the less experienced proposer to do all the work, only for them to come up with the loopholes that let them off the hook in the event of a claim.

[billbedford]

Warranties and disclaimers are another legal minefield, since courts may choose to ignore them or interpret them in a very different way to that intended by the writer. I am not legally trained, but find the disclaimer you quote rather odd, since they must be aware of how their products are being used. That being so, I wonder how effective it would be, although much might depend on the information given in "UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED IN THE DESCRIPTION FOR A SPECIFIC MATERIAL".

Shapeways are a US company, so presumably their disclaimer was written by US lawyers conversant with the US market and US law. It is also written to be a flexible as possible so that it does not need to be updated whenever a new material is introduced into their range.

[Proto87Stores]

My US based "cottage industry" disclaimer can be found at http://www.proto87.com/Sales_terms.html.

2016 is my 20th Anniversary year. "Break a leg", no legal action during this time. Actually no complaints either. US/California Law isn't that different from modern UK law. It generally takes a serious amount of money or a very enthusiastic attorney, to kick off even a small genuine claim, and there is a small claims system to handle the lesser issues. You'd generally have to directly and negligently cause serious or permanent bodily harm to become liable from a defective product or product description.

And for the record, my experience dealing with Bill B from the US has been perfectly satisfactory, even including a lost shipment. And of course I deal with many UK industrial suppliers on a regular basis.

Andy Reichert

[Highpeak]

Re the idea of being able to obtain these products via a third party distributor. At Scaleforum I did some business with Richard at Parkside and discussed the possibility of being able to obtain Dave's excellent products in the US. While Parkside does act as a distributor for Lanarkshire Models they can't ship those products to the US because that would still expose Dave to liability as the manufacturer. They can ship their own products because they are currently insured.

I would say those of us in the US who want these products need to cultivate friendships with people in the UK who would be kind enough to send them as a "gift" to which we could reciprocate in some way.

Neville
Branford CT