P4 Starter Pack A: 16T Steel Mineral Wagon

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Knuckles
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Knuckles » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:34 am

Really enjoying this. I don't think I have ever drilled into a wooden block using them as an extra pair of hands before, seems a good idea.

What is the name of the tool you use to drill sideways into the axleboxes? I could seriously do with one as so far I have always bumbled on by carving it out with a scalpel. They look like the same RCH ones I used - MJT ?


With the brake lever I think you just bend them past all the gubbins.

I want to have a go at doing what Ted Scannel did and make working brakes. I'm convinced I could pull it off but I'll likely start with a solid wagon first.

(EDIT - To everyone, there are two big installments and a question on previous page)
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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:26 pm

Hi Gordon,

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If you want to know what tools I use, then its just pliers and fingers. If you are referring to the process of forming the levers then I have plenty of spares knocking about and I could do a step by step piece. Just let me know. Just as an aside, Dave Bradwell draws a lever in plan view on most of his wagon kit instructions, which is a terrific idea. Something that others might follow.

Hi Knuckles,

I'm afraid I don't know what the tool is called. They are available in both parallel and tapered versions and both have their place, although the parallel one is what is required here. I'm confident that there is someone out there who knows and is reading this so let's hope they pop up and tell us. I'll have learnt something, which is never a bad thing.
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dal-t
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby dal-t » Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:16 pm

Dremel refer to those bits (regardless of shape) as 'High Speed Cutters', but you then need to know their number to get the right one. 193 and 194 are parallel, 117 is a taper, 144 is a rather useful 'ball'. Other makes are, of course, available - and I suspect many people would call them a 'miller'.
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Flymo748
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:25 pm

dal-t wrote:Dremel refer to those bits (regardless of shape) as 'High Speed Cutters', but you then need to know their number to get the right one. 193 and 194 are parallel, 117 is a taper, 144 is a rather useful 'ball'. Other makes are, of course, available - and I suspect many people would call them a 'miller'.


You'll find a discussion of the use of milling bits to remove metal from the backs of axleboxes in this thread here: http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4504l

As usual DavidB was doing a surgically neat job in preparing the various parts. He also recommended some milling cutters from Axminster Tools. They looked so good that I bought two sets, and they have been very impressive. Not the usual rubbish that you find in the "200 tools for five quid" selection boxes from Maplin or Halfords.

The link is http://www.axminster.co.uk/proxxon-wolfram-vanadium-cutters-set-of-5

HTH
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steamraiser
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby steamraiser » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:23 pm

Hi Lord C,

My question was and is "How do you know what shape to bend the lever?"

The lever is bent to avoid various obstructions to it being lowered to apply the brakes.

Does Justin provide a plan view of the brake lever as to where and how much bend to apply or have you worked it out for your self?

Gordon A

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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:52 pm

Hi Gordon,

There is no lever drawing in the instructions, but then they do cover 13 different wagon types so perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised.

As for bending the lever, I study photographs as far as possible and try to replicate what I see. That, and a bit of logic regarding how the lever operates. I doubt that I'm ever exactly right but I think I get near enough.

As I said before, I'm happy to do a photo sequence showing the process if it helps. Trouble is, to do it justice and to illustrate some points, I would need to build another wagon. Blast!

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steamraiser
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby steamraiser » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:06 pm

Lord C,

Thanks for your reply.

Gordon A

Knuckles
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Knuckles » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:12 am

Many thanks for the replies regarding the milling tools. I haven't checked the links yet but will do.

Liking the idea of these.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:17 pm

As promised last time, a bit of a change this time. We need buffers and, of course, we need wheels. I thought I would fit something a little bit special to this one so that you can see how its done. I'm talking sprung buffers and Exactoscale wheels. Fitting rigid cast buffers really needs no explanation, you just have to glue them in. If you use Gibson wheels or Ultrascales with pinpoint bearings then they just need popping into their appropriate bearings in the W-Irons, no assembly is required. So, having made the rod for my back, let's see what is involved.

The popular method of springing any buffer usually involves placing a small spring over the buffer shank, inserting the buffer into the housing and then securing the buffer at the end of the shank in such a way as to leave the head the correct distance from the housing. I do use this method, but I cut the springs in half and stretch them out to their original length, as I find that the spring is too strong otherwise. I would be the first to admit that this method is a bit hit and miss when it comes to getting consistent strength in each spring. Exactoscale buffer springing works in an entirely different way and, providing there is room for them to work underneath the wagon, the action is nice and soft.

The first thing to do is to place the buffer into the buffer housing. I use Lanarkshire Models pre-drilled buffers. My stock of Exactoscale buffer springing units include some very neat brass ferrules which are intended to pass over the end of the buffer shank and are then glued in position with the head a suitable distance from the housing. Given that I want to remove the buffers for painting, I used a small piece of wire insulation for this job for the time being. I also use a simple jig to set the buffer heads at a consistent distance from the housings. From studying photographs, it seems that there is no set distance here, probably as a result of spring wear in use, I don't know for sure. This jig is simply a piece of plasticard, 80thou in this case, if memory serves, but there's no harm in having more than one jig to set different distances. Cut a V in this, into which the buffer shank fits, hold it against the buffer head, and push the wire insulation up to the back of the buffer housing. This photo should make all clear.

20160218_201009 (2).jpg


Now we need to provide some kind of spring. Exactoscale provide an etching, with forked ends, that passes over the back of the coupling hook. The ends of the buffer shanks pass through the forked ends and the etching sits against the plastic wire insulation. A soft rubber-like tubing is provided and a small piece is cut off and pushed over the coupling hook to hold everything in place. Again, a photo to show what I mean.

20160218_202253 (2).jpg


Just so that you know, I use Masokits coupling hooks.

So to the wheels. Exactoscale wagon wheels are supplied as a set of two wheels and a seperate axle, like so.

20160217_191831 (2).jpg


In the photo above, you will have noticed an Exactoscale back to back gauge and the two parts of an axle assembly jig that I knocked up, based on one used by Justin Newitt. You can see Justin's jig in his Wonderful World of Wagons thread, elsewhere on this forum. I would thoroughly recommend it to anyone interested in wagonry. Now, it would be mean of me not to tell you how to make this jig and I'm not a mean man, so here goes.

The first thing to say is that you will need seperate jigs for parallel and pinpoint axles. Exactoscale parallel axles are 25mm. long, whereas their pinpoint axles are 26mm. long. The idea of them is that they hold the wheels on their axles, against the back to back gauge, whilst whatever adhesive is being used goes off. The jig is clamped against the gauge whilst this is going on. The set up looks something like this. I use an engineers clamp to hold everything in place, but I would imagine that it could all be held in a vice just as easily.

20160219_173229.jpg


The back plate on the jig is a square of brass plate. The ends of the axle should just touch the inside of this plate when everything is set up on the back to back gauge. Referral back to the photo showing the jigs, shows that there is a central hole into which the axle ends go and a circular recess into which the wheel sits, flush with the inside of the jig. The hole for the axle is drilled a little oversize and the recess for the wheel I cut using an Olfa compass cutter. I can't remember the measurement of the layers of plasticard used to achieve this unfortunately, which isn't much use to you so, if I was starting from scratch, I would measure the distance from the axle end to the outer edge of the wheel, to determine how many layers of plasticard (and what thickness to use) are needed to provide that depth of hole for the axle. Then I would measure the wheel thickness and apply the same principle to provide the appropriate depth of recess in order for the wheel to sit flush with the inside of the jig. To verify that you have the correct thickness, place each part of the jig on either side of the back to back gauge and measure the distance. Remove them and place them against each other and measure again. Take the latter from the former and you should have the back to back distance. If its less, then the jig won't sit against the back to back gauge properly, if at all. If its more, then the axle won't be held properly against the gauge. All this might seem a little over the top but you should only have to do it once and then you know that your wheelsets are properly assembled.

This next shot shows a wheel sitting flush in the jig and the one after that shows an assembled wheelset, just in case you don't know what one looks like!

20160217_192000 (2).jpg


20160219_162507 (2).jpg


That's it for now. Next time I'll return to the body to carry out a job that I should have done earlier. After that, its time to put everything together.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:35 pm

Oh dear, my memory did fail me. The buffer head jig shown in my last posting is, in fact, 60 thou. and not 80 thou. as I said. Most humble apologies.
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Knuckles
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Knuckles » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:42 pm

Great instalment. :thumb

The popular method of springing any buffer usually involves placing a small spring over the buffer shank, inserting the buffer into the housing and then securing the buffer at the end of the shank in such a way as to leave the head the correct distance from the housing. I do use this method, but I cut the springs in half and stretch them out to their original length, as I find that the spring is too strong otherwise. I would be the first to admit that this method is a bit hit and miss when it comes to getting consistent strength in each spring.


This is what I usually do using Wizard Models / 51L springs. I've had the same tension issue and need to cut them to length as you describe. I usually use the buffers the wagon kit comes with and drill a hole through the shank but to retain them I just bend the ends. I'm not very sophisticated though!

I like the method you are showing. They look 10 times easier to be honest.

The Exactoscale wagon wheels are also my preference as they look so much more convincing and are thinner but the way you described setting them up seems awfully complex. S4 stores ones are a good choice for quick conversions.

I literally just grab the wheels, test fit them on the axle, put them in the Exactoscale BtoB gauge and if it presses to gauge I remove them, add some Loctite 243 (I'm a wimp and like medium strength), press them together on the gauge gently twisting and pressing for about 5 or 10 seconds and then don't move my hand for about 30 seconds to a minute, then I let go and wait 5 minutes.

Result? So far they have always gone together perfectly and haven't failed me (yet!). Ok I may be doing things wrong I don't know but it so far works impeccably for me so I'll continue.


Demo' pic isn't assembled correctly I just bodged it for the picture. I just hold them where you see them.



Good to learn new ways though so yours probably will be in the long run better.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:45 pm

Hi Knuckles,

If it works for you, stick with it. That's what I do.

John.
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:10 pm

I also use a simple jig to set the buffer heads at a consistent distance from the housings. From studying photographs, it seems that there is no set distance here, probably as a result of spring wear in use,

There are three common lengths for the headstock to buffer head face, the required spacing jig thickness can be established from the length of the body so you get the standard length over the face.
For 3-link loose coupled wagons 1'6" is pretty well universal, for most instanter and screw coupled stock 1'8.5" and for UIC standard and some late BR vehicles 2'0.5". Its usually mentioned on the drawings.
Regards
PS. Does that bit of rubber tube really hold the coupling hooks in with a heavy train?

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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:15 pm

Hi Keith,

I should have explained myself better. The coupling hook is already fixed in place. The rubber sleeve just holds the buffer spring.

Thanks for the buffer info.

John.
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:22 pm

Ok, but then you don't get the sprung hook.
I have some of these Exactoscale springs to try when I get back to wagons, so taking notes.
Regards

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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:24 pm

This is true, but I don't lose sleep over it!
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Knuckles
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Knuckles » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:31 pm

With the spring set up in your picture would it be worth making the set up do a 180 turn so the ends of the leaf springs in effect push the buffers more head on? Visually if the springs are currently 'convex' then reverse them 'concave' so then the middle portion where the coupling housing is currently connect would instead be right by the base plate of the W Irons. This way I'm thinking a coil spring could be added to the middle thus allowing both buffers and coupling to be sprung still.

Plausable? :)
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby billbedford » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:38 am

Lord Colnago wrote:The popular method of springing any buffer usually involves placing a small spring over the buffer shank, inserting the buffer into the housing and then securing the buffer at the end of the shank in such a way as to leave the head the correct distance from the housing. I do use this method, but I cut the springs in half and stretch them out to their original length, as I find that the spring is too strong otherwise.


Cutting springs in half with double the spring rate, i.e. it will take twice as much force to compress the spring the same distance. This can be experienced by bending a long and short piece of wire. The longer one will alway be easier to be, presuming they are of the same diameter. What I suggest is happening is that the counter bore in the buffer guide is not long enough and the longer spring is partly compressed while the buffer is at the extended position.
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Knuckles
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Knuckles » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:57 am

I had to cut some of my sprngs as the overall length was too long for some of the shanks to operate properly.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:22 pm

Hi Knuckles,

What you see in the photo of the buffer springing set up is only a temporarary arrangement. The spring will need a little fettling to get the buffer force right but there is not much point in doing this until the buffers go back in after painting. I fixed the coupling hook with epoxy and I will be cutting a little bit of that away so that the spring will sit nearer the headstock than is shown. Again, something I will do as part of the fettling process after painting. You can, of course, use a spring to hold the buffer leaf spring against the headstock if you want to have a sprung coupling hook but that's not something I'm particularly fond of.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info on spring length. Your suggestion about how far the bore is drilled into the buffer and its effect on how the spring operates was one of those "light bulb"moments for me and explains a lot.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:47 pm

Since putting the body together, I have been wondering whether to replace the moulded corner brackets at the top of the body. I have decided that if I don't do it, it will just nag away at me until I do, so here goes. The first thing to do was to remove the mouldings and the next two photos show how things look after doing this, firstly on the top and then at the side.

20160216_185920.jpg


20160216_191534 (2).jpg


Next, I glued some squares of 10thou. plasticard to the top corners, like so.

20160216_195106.jpg


These were then tidied up and the outside corners rounded as per the prototype as shown here.

20160217_190412 (2).jpg


Next, suitably sized strip (actually, I only had something a little over-sized, but no matter) is glued to the sides as shown below. I also took the opportunity to add a little filler to the slight gaps between the sides and ends.

20160217_191349 (2).jpg


The same strip was applied to the other part of the angle and, once again, a little filler applied to the gap between the plastic strip and the body. The next shot should make this clear.

20160218_205509 (2).jpg


I set the assembly aside for 24 hours to allow everything to go off and then filed the brackets to shape. The next sequence of photos shows this.





20160220_151848 (2).jpg


The last job to carry out before final assembly is to cut a lead weight to shape. This will go inside the wagon and so needs to be as close a fit as is possible in order to look unobtrusive. I know that this means that some of the height inside the wagon is lost, but I don't feel that it looks too bad if done properly and it has the added bonus of bringing the total wagon weight up to 50 grams, which is the ideal here. The next photo shows the fit inside the wagon that we're aiming for.

20160220_151923 (2).jpg


So, to final assembly. I won't yet be gluing the weight inside the wagon or gluing the body to the chassis, you can see the latter in the photos but it will allow me to better show what has been done at the 101 not out event in a few weeks time, so if you have any questions and can make it along, I'll see you there.

The first thing to do is to fit the wheels. I've found that the easiest way to do this is to first fit the washers on the axle to take up any sideplay and then place the bearings in the spring carrier over the axle ends. This is what I mean.

20160220_152012 (2).jpg


Now pick up this assembly and lower it between the W-Irons. You may need to tweak the springs into the slots in the chassis, but that's not going to cause any hardship. Once in, it looks like this.

20160220_152106 (2).jpg


The tie bars need to go in next as these secure the spring bearings in place and prevent the wheels from dropping out when you turn the wagons the right way up. I usually don't carry out the final assembly process until after painting. I leave the wires at the back of the tie bars over length so that I can push them into some blu-tack, to hold them whilst they're airbrushed. For the purposes of this exercise however, I cut them to the required length. This next shot shows one before and one after.

20160220_152227 (2).jpg


Next, we see the tie bar almost in place. It just needs pushing the rest of the way home and then securing with a little dab of acrylic varnish, otherwise you'll be praying to the carpet god again! Varnish is a useful means of securing them as its easy to break the joint should you wish to remove the wheelsets, however, I have found that, as long as you're careful, you can remove them in the conventional manner.

20160220_152542 (2).jpg


The couplings come next. We need simple three links here and I use a slightly oversize chain that I bought many years ago for the purpose. When using Masokits coupling hooks, the instructions tell you to be somewhat brutal when putting the coupling itself in place, insofar as you are told to twist the hook to one side in order to open up the hole for the coupling. Drop the coupling into place and twist the hook back into line. The next sequence shows this process.

20160220_154748 (2).jpg


20160220_154851 (2).jpg


20160220_154912 (2).jpg


All that now remains is to fix the body in place. The only thing you have to worry about here is that you fix the body the correct way around. As built, when looking at the wagon from the brakes side, the end door will be on the left. Later on, some were re-bodied and this was not always put on the same way around. Consult your photograph for verification. Again, I use epoxy to fix the body to the chassis. Here are a few shots of the finished wagon.

20160220_155232 (2).jpg


20160220_155255 (2).jpg


20160220_155622 (2).jpg


So, there you have it. A BR 16T Mineral to Diagram 1/106, using a simple sprung chassis. I have been asked to list the components used and I will do this next time. For now, I hope you have enjoyed this and that it has proved useful to you.
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iak
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby iak » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:41 pm

C'est Magnifique :thumb
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dal-t
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby dal-t » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:03 pm

Nice mineral! Looks ready for a good battering ...
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steamraiser
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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby steamraiser » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:59 pm

Do I see a lead dummy floor for weight?

Gordon A

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Re: A wagon tutorial

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:12 pm

steamraiser wrote:Do I see a lead dummy floor for weight?

Gordon A

See http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=4676&p=43916#p43911
Regards


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